Anyone having trouble with enemy ai fighters going vertical and stalling during dogfights?

[Epiccow400]

Is there any acknowledgment from the devs about this? Thanks

[DBFlyguy]

It's been acknowledged, they are looking into it, hopefully its fixed in the next update

[Verbum_Vincet]

I've noticed it, but I thought it was one of the improvements they were talking about. I've had some really challenging and fun dogfights in career mode since the last update because the AI is doing unpredictable things and taking it to the vertical more often!

[oc2209]

I find it is largely plane-specific, and that this behavior has been around for quite a while (longer than the last 2-3 updates).

 

Doing a 1v8 will make it very easy to recreate the issue, as many of the planes loitering around will have nothing to do. Spitfires also seem to be the worst offenders:

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Feldgrun]

The stall makes them an easy target!

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Feldgrun said:

The stall makes them an easy target!

 

Not in my experience. At least not when a Spitfire's doing it. There's really no counter to it (following him straight up while being able to fire accurately--not wasting half your ammo--is impossible most of the time), other than putting yourself in a good position to attack after he's slow on the downswing. But since the Spitfire can turn perfectly well at ~150 MPH, and the AI often goes into a turn after stalling out of a zoom climb, even that's not as simple as it would appear.

 

The AI's also good at preventing spins with the Spit. It doesn't even spin out an XIV after a zoom climb or a prolonged, unfinished loop in which it hangs upside down for a while at the top.

 

Aside from looking a bit ridiculous, it's actually not a bad move for a Spitfire. If a P-47 attempted it, yeah, that would be suicidal. In other tests I've done today, the P-47, Tempest, and P-51 will all zoom climb at shallower angles, and they rarely, if ever, drop flap on the downswing. Of course, they're not as prone to spinning either.

[TheWarsimmer]

I've seen it often since the update. Last sp flight had two yaks do it. Pulled straight up until stall, then hammerhead back down until they crashed into the ground

[DBFlyguy]

28 minutes ago, TheWarsimmer said:

I've seen it often since the update. Last sp flight had two yaks do it. Pulled straight up until stall, then hammerhead back down until they crashed into the ground

They probably just realized they were piloting yaks... couldn't stand it anymore and decided to put it end to it ?

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, TheWarsimmer said:

I've seen it often since the update. Last sp flight had two yaks do it. Pulled straight up until stall, then hammerhead back down until they crashed into the ground

 

I just did a 1v8 against a mixed group of -1b and -7. Nobody did a zoom climb, much less a crash. I led them around for 2 minutes before a single 20mm HE broke my 109's wingtip off. Serves me right for piloting the fat ass G-6 instead of my usual F-4.

 

I'm not saying it didn't happen to you; just that it must take some kind of specific situation to trigger that behavior.

 

I'm also unsure how a Yak--even piloted by AI--could fail to pull out of a stalled zoom climb. A Yak-9 can do a loop from zero altitude and recover with room to spare (a little above the tree level), from a starting speed of about 270 MPH. I just tested it myself.

 

Unless the AI did something incredibly stupid, like start the climb at less than 250 MPH, and at near-zero altitude, I'm pretty sure recovery should be possible.

 

*Edit:

 

Yeah, if the Yaks crashed, it was definitely an AI issue.

 

A Yak-1 with 100% fuel and entering a zoom climb from almost zero altitude at 270 MPH will gain over 2,000 feet before stalling out of the zoom, and recovery becomes possible at 140 MPH. So it wasn't the zoom and stall that caused the crash, but the other AI flaw that's responsible for the lawn dart phenomenon.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by oc2209

[Vishnu]

The Spits and Hurris I was fighting today all did it. 

[Ram399]

2 hours ago, oc2209 said:

At least not when a Spitfire's doing it.

I'm not so sure about that one lol, makes them sitting ducks in Kuban.

Spoiler

Granted this shot was taken immediately post-stall, note the Spit's curving exhaust trail.

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Ram399 said:

I'm not so sure about that one lol, makes them sitting ducks in Kuban.

  Hide contents

Granted this shot was taken immediately post-stall, note the Spit's curving exhaust trail.

 

If we're talking the weakest-climbing Spitfire, the V, maybe not even using the 45 engine, versus you in a 109G-4 by the looks of it... then yeah, that's a caveat.

[jojy47jojyrocks]

11 hours ago, Epiccow400 said:

Is there any acknowledgment from the devs about this? Thanks

 

 

Yeah, I had taken this issue up and posted about this in technical Issue and bug section.

 

Yes, it happens to me EVERY mission for all fighter class AI enemy planes going vertical almost every time just when we are about to merge head on. They keep going vertical more and more...

Edited October 28, 2022 by jojy47jojyrocks

[TheWarsimmer]

13 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

I just did a 1v8 against a mixed group of -1b and -7. Nobody did a zoom climb, much less a crash. I led them around for 2 minutes before a single 20mm HE broke my 109's wingtip off. Serves me right for piloting the fat ass G-6 instead of my usual F-4.

 

I'm not saying it didn't happen to you; just that it must take some kind of specific situation to trigger that behavior.

 

I'm also unsure how a Yak--even piloted by AI--could fail to pull out of a stalled zoom climb. A Yak-9 can do a loop from zero altitude and recover with room to spare (a little above the tree level), from a starting speed of about 270 MPH. I just tested it myself.

 

Unless the AI did something incredibly stupid, like start the climb at less than 250 MPH, and at near-zero altitude, I'm pretty sure recovery should be possible.

 

*Edit:

 

Yeah, if the Yaks crashed, it was definitely an AI issue.

 

A Yak-1 with 100% fuel and entering a zoom climb from almost zero altitude at 270 MPH will gain over 2,000 feet before stalling out of the zoom, and recovery becomes possible at 140 MPH. So it wasn't the zoom and stall that caused the crash, but the other AI flaw that's responsible for the lawn dart phenomenon.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Talking about what triggers it, it seems to only happen in aqm engagements for me. Could be related to altitude? But anytime I fire up an aqm and a furball ensues, it usually happens with 1 or 2 ai. Skirmish not so much.

[Trooper117]

Watching that video... AI Spitfire dropping flaps during a dogfight?

Spitfires do not have incremental flaps... they are up for take off and down for landings, that's the only setting. 

[RedeyeStorm]

I have seen P47’s doing it in career missions. My own Dora wingman love doing it at the merge to.

[oc2209]

4 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Watching that video... AI Spitfire dropping flaps during a dogfight?

Spitfires do not have incremental flaps... they are up for take off and down for landings, that's the only setting. 

 

The AI is smart enough to know that the Spit will spin if you stall it too severely. Dropping flap will largely prevent it from entering the spin. Then once you're back up to 120 MPH or so and at a stable attitude, you pick the flaps back up and go on your merry way.

 

6 hours ago, TheWarsimmer said:

Talking about what triggers it, it seems to only happen in aqm engagements for me. Could be related to altitude? But anytime I fire up an aqm and a furball ensues, it usually happens with 1 or 2 ai. Skirmish not so much.

 

Mine was just a straight skirmish, from an initial starting altitude of 300m.

 

I think career is where you're going to see the most potential for trigger variety, but I haven't been doing career lately.

Edited October 28, 2022 by oc2209

[Trooper117]

Then the AI has been coded incorrectly then... it was a common problem in the old IL2 game that eventually got fixed in a patch if I remember right.

In some aircraft, yes, 'combat' flap settings are something that would be employed in real life, that's as it should be, but using the flaps on any aircraft that only had fully up or fully down settings could not be used in a combat setting as they would likely lead to serious problems.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

From mindless eternal turning fights to mindless vertical fights.

 

 

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Then the AI has been coded incorrectly then... it was a common problem in the old IL2 game that eventually got fixed in a patch if I remember right.

In some aircraft, yes, 'combat' flap settings are something that would be employed in real life, that's as it should be, but using the flaps on any aircraft that only had fully up or fully down settings could not be used in a combat setting as they would likely lead to serious problems.

 

But the listed 'do not exceed' speed is 160 IAS (on the Spit's instrument panel). If the AI lowers the flaps around 80-100 in the middle of a stall, then retracts them by 120, what's the problem? It's well within safety margins.

 

Combat flaps are meant to be used at combat speeds. Certainly far in excess of the low 100s. The AI isn't using them as combat flaps.

 

Truth is, the Spit's spin characteristics aren't that bad unless you really hamfist the stick, and the AI's just using an abundance of caution by dropping flaps. Even the fattest XIV doesn't have terrible habits when falling out of a zoom climb:

 

Spoiler

 

 

That was as close as I came to a spin in several attempts. But I have seen the AI enter a flat inverted spin on a few occasions (in a Spitfire), with no recovery.

 

55 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

From mindless eternal turning fights to mindless vertical fights.

 

Ironically, if the AI had kept turning here, he'd have been much better off:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Watch around the 35 second mark. The AI wastes valuable time and speed trying to climb even though he was nearly stalling the whole time. If he'd just followed me into my turn, I couldn't have gotten on his tail so easily.

[JeanStravinsky]

Spitfires using flaps in combat? They only had the full down position, and that means they are quite restricted in deployment speed. 

[oc2209]

Here's more footage of a Spit IX doing the zoom climb routine, plus a nosedive crash at the end:

 

Spoiler

 

 

It's my theory that the AI might not pull out when it should because it's 'afraid' of blacking out. Notice how it tries, jerkily, to pull up right before it hits the ground. It's evidently prioritizing something else--either fear of blackout or fear of pulling back too hard and causing a stall/spin--until it's too late.

 

Also note how briefly the flaps are deployed when it's using them for stall recovery.

[Trooper117]

12 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Also note how briefly the flaps are deployed when it's using them for stall recovery.

 

The pilots head slumped forward because he was blacked out briefly just before he hit the ground...

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

The pilots head slumped forward because he was blacked out briefly just before he hit the ground...

 

No, he wasn't. Blackout (both from injury and G-force) and death are nearly identical in terms of animations. The pilot slumps back, never forward. What you saw was merely the usual 'fidgeting pilot' animation.

 

When a pilot dies from injury, he clutches his gut for a brief moment, then his head falls backwards:

 

Spoiler

 

The above screen is taken mid-death animation.

 

This is what blackout/death looks like (animation completed):

 

Spoiler

 

The only difference between death animation and blackout animation is that in the latter case, the pilot doesn't clutch his gut first (I'm not 100% sure on this, but fairly certain). I believe his head simply goes back.

Edited October 30, 2022 by oc2209

[oc2209]

Just to remove any doubt:

 

Spoiler

 

 

As I said, no gut grab on a blackout. Just the head falls back.

 

The fidgeting animations where the pilot adjusts his goggles, looks around, etc, mean nothing.

[Charon]

On 10/28/2022 at 3:03 PM, oc2209 said:

 

But the listed 'do not exceed' speed is 160 IAS (on the Spit's instrument panel). If the AI lowers the flaps around 80-100 in the middle of a stall, then retracts them by 120, what's the problem? It's well within safety margins.

 

I don't expect it should break anything, but split flaps produce a ton of drag. They're basically air-brakes. Deploying them in combat, unless perhaps it will secure you the kill right now, seems tactically unsound. Take your first video, at 25s. If the spit was on the verge of a stall, shouldn't it have simply pitched nose down?

 

You'll also see them use flaps even in planes where they're slow to deploy and retract.

 

I'm not a great pilot, so if someone wants to tell me that yeah, this is a good idea and they use flaps like this all the time, by all means chime in -- but it seems unsound to me.

 

Right now, it seems like the AI uses a very simple heuristic to extend flaps any time it is slow. It seems like a better heuristic would be:

 

* In the P-38, extend maneuvering flaps (and only maneuvering flaps) in combat when below XXX mph.

* In all other planes, don't extend flaps when in combat at all.

  * Or, a slightly better heuristic, don't extend flaps unless below XXX mph *and* an enemy plane is within Y degrees above your nose *and* within gun range, and even then probably only in planes with quick acting flaps.

[Trooper117]

7 hours ago, Charon said:

but it seems unsound to me.

 

In the real world no Spitfire pilot would use flaps during combat... in this game, the AI uses flaps in a combat setting and it's wrong, full stop!

It was an acknowledged fault in the original IL2 series, and it seems they need to sort it out in this latest version too... yet another fault in the AI coding that needs sorting.