Now what?

[oc2209]

59 minutes ago, CAFulcrum said:

Well if it isn't Malta then snap... Hard to think of actual alternatives.

 

[...] So maybe we will see Berlin, [...]

 

Italy was excluded based upon urban density issues, hence something like Berlin is almost certainly out of the equation.

 

My personal candidate (in terms of plausibility) for the next DLC is Hungary or Romania. It would also make sense to wrap up the Eastern Front before 'leaving' for the Pacific. The mountainous areas in Hungary/Romania would qualify regarding the developer comments on the upcoming map's complexity and beauty.

 

For Burma to be the next installment would both defy the conventional wisdom of starting off the Pacific era of the franchise with as famous a battle as possible, and also would lack the Zero. More importantly, it would go against the devs' statements that the Pacific isn't immediately upcoming. Most people would place Burma under the general category of the Pacific theater, so it would be pointlessly obtuse for the devs to misdirect us that way.

 

Starting the 'new' (or heavily updated, depending on your perspective) franchise in Burma would be tantamount to starting the BoX series in Kuban, rather than Stalingrad. It's not impossible, but it would be... an odd choice.

[nachinus]

8 hours ago, CAFulcrum said:

imo what the game needs are heavy bombers.  So maybe we will see Berlin, because even if they can't do that now it would be a good map to have when they do.

I agree that the lack of heavy bombers is a big con, BUT the current shape of the game is best suited for tactical air warfare, not strategical. A proper use of big bombers would need a BIG CPU optimization that makes the game capable of handling a big number of planes. Having half a dozen B17 flying with 4xP51 as escorts fighting 4xFW190 would be a bit of lackluster.

 

That lack of optimization limits the possibilities of the game very seriously. It doesn't allow for having actual live fronts on the ground, strategical warfare in the sky or an effective time acceleration. I hope this is something the devs are working on in this new engine enhancement.

 

This plus an improved tactical AI would make a huge difference in gameplay possibilities, immersion and enjoyment.

Edited November 18, 2022 by nachinus

[ITAF_Rani]

8 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Italy was excluded based upon urban density issues, hence something like Berlin is almost certainly out of the equation.

 

My personal candidate (in terms of plausibility) for the next DLC is Hungary or Romania. It would also make sense to wrap up the Eastern Front before 'leaving' for the Pacific.

Yes was hoping for Italy, but unfortunately no..

At this point closing the Eupean scenery with last models of VVS planes ( 1945) will be probably the next stop..

Maybe a next DLC announcement before the end of December 2022?

Edited November 18, 2022 by ITAF_Rani

[Lusekofte]

That would be a no no from me. 
Italy was pretty secure bet just days ago. 
later West Europe was a allied walkover. Same with east. If more Europe , they need to go early war. 

[Gambit21]

Italy was never a plausible bet…been telling you guys that forever. Won’t be Europe either.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Manchuria.

[Noisemaker]

40 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Italy was never a plausible bet…been telling you guys that forever. Won’t be Europe either.

I think you might underestimate the amount of us who want to go around again to make sure that that bridge at Ferrara is bombed, so we don't have to go back again for an 11th time...  The Devs as well.  I've been waiting for Italy, as long as I've been flying WW2 flight sims, and now they can finally do it justice!  In my mind, it's far more interesting than:  Ocean, more ocean, more ocean, more ocean, "Is that a ship?, "Nope", ocean, ocean, ocean, shot down by a zero because I'm flying a useless Wildcat.

[Irishratticus72]

It's Australia, isn't it!

[Alexmarine]

3 minutes ago, Irishratticus72 said:

It's Australia, isn't it!

 

YES

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

.  I've been waiting for Italy, as long as I've been flying WW2 flight sims, 

That might be true - but it was never a plausible endeavor. Then or now.

[Irishratticus72]

1 minute ago, Alexmarine said:

 

YES

I knew Hugh Jackman wouldn't star in a Turkey!

[Noisemaker]

10 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

That might be true - but it was never a plausible endeavor. Then or now.

In your opinion, which you seem to hold in very high regard.

[Gambit21]

17 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

In your opinion, which you seem to hold in very high regard.

 

I hold facts in high regard. If you'd like to dispute the feasibility/marketability of Italy then feel free to drop Daniel a line.

I'll be happy to debunk your own opinions with actual facts on Wildcats vs Zeroes at a later date.

 

[Noisemaker]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I hold facts in high regard. If you'd like to dispute the feasibility/marketability of Italy then feel free to drop Daniel a line.

I'll be happy to debunk your own opinions with actual facts on Wildcats vs Zeroes at a later date.

 

I just called my friend Daniel, and he has no idea what you're talking about.

[MAJ_stug41]

I also called noisemaker's friend daniel and he told me he wasnt interested in an extended warranty on his car

[Gambit21]

9 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

I just called my friend Daniel, and he has no idea what you're talking about.

 

Well you make a good pair I suppose  

By the way I know what it's like to find out that your favorite place isn't happening.

I remember Jason called me prior to the BobP announcement and told me PTO wasn't happening yet for this, that and the other reason, and Bodenplatte is happening first.

Like a gut-punch for a minute...but I got on with it and figured out a way to contribute even though it was far and away not what I wanted.

 

So I can relate to really wanting something...even if I can't relate to Italy.

 

 

 

 

 

[Noisemaker]

2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Well you make a good pair I suppose  

By the way I know what it's like to find out that your favorite place isn't happening.

I remember Jason called me prior to the BobP announcement and told me PTO wasn't happening yet for this, that and the other reason, and Bodenplatte is happening first.

Like a gut-punch for a minute...but I got on with it and figured out a way to contribute even though it was far and away not what I wanted.

 

So I can relate to really wanting something...even if I can't relate to Italy.

 

 

 

 

 

Who's Jason?

[Gambit21]

38 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

Who's Jason?

Yet another person who never had any interest in Italy.

[oc2209]

44 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I'll be happy to debunk your own opinions with actual facts on Wildcats vs Zeroes at a later date.

 

 

Yeah yeah, we all know the flying beer bottle was much more nimble than popular history gives it credit for, and a great fighter in its own right, blah blah blah.

 

But let's be honest for a moment. Our AI isn't smart enough to do the Thach Weave.

 

We also better hope that incendiary ammo will be modelled by the time the Pacific is playable, or the Japanese tendency to burn will be less than it was in reality.

[Gambit21]

AI is a great point - and one I brought up to them long ago regarding exactly what you said.

[oc2209]

13 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

AI is a great point - and one I brought up to them long ago regarding exactly what you said.

 

Speaking of AI, something else I just thought of right now.

 

We already have disparities in AI performance depending on plane type. For example, the the AI can generally fly a 109 closer to its limits than a Spitfire, because it's more likely to black out in the latter. The AI also doesn't fly the Yak as hard it can be flown.

 

However, the Zero is optimized to fight at less than 250 MPH. Meaning, in my mind at least, that the AI probably won't be in much danger of blacking out at low maneuvering speeds. Meaning that it will likely fly the Zero to its limits, so it could be rather nightmarish in one.

 

At the very least, the disparity in AI quality when flying the Zero (or Oscar, whatever) versus the AI flying the Wildcat, P-40, etc, will probably be huge. Unless they do specific tweaks to the AI when flying different planes.

[Noisemaker]

21 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

AI is a great point - and one I brought up to them long ago regarding exactly what you said.

So what you're saying, that the Pacific is unfeasible, unrealistic, and guaranteed to be a flop, in our current state?

Please, tell us more about how Italy is a sure loser.  Your wisdom and intimate relationship with the IL-2 team are sorely needed, especially now, with so much unclarity, as to the future...

 

[oc2209]

3 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

So what you're saying, that the Pacific is unfeasible, unrealistic, and guaranteed to be a flop, in our current state?

 

Depends on how much the Allied AI is 'told' to stay away from Zeros/Oscars. If it tries to dogfight rather than escape with dives, then yeah, we'll be seeing a flight of 8 cut down to you, the sole survivor, in a few minutes.

 

The only thing saving Allied AI in the early war period, is that Oscars don't use cannons, and Zeros have low cannon capacity. So, that's something.

[Gambit21]

49 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

So what you're saying, that the Pacific is unfeasible, unrealistic, and guaranteed to be a flop, in our current state?

Please, tell us more about how Italy is a sure loser.  Your wisdom and intimate relationship with the IL-2 team are sorely needed, especially now, with so much unclarity, as to the future...

 

 

With SP, with the current AI state...absolutely.

However I don't expect PTO to be released with the AI in it's current state.

 

I don't see the point in debating Italy, which is just not going to happen here, any time soon if ever.

I think the infeasibility of Italy became most clear to me watching this...

 

 

 

 

"No way any Dev team is going to take on that landscape, cities, towns, landmarks" etc etc etc.

That was my opinion and impression at the time, and still is...right or wrong. Daniel just said "too much to do" so it seems they agree as well.

 

That said, I'd love for you to get your favorite theater at some point, some how, with some sim or another.

 

 

39 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Depends on how much the Allied AI is 'told' to stay away from Zeros/Oscars. If it tries to dogfight rather than escape with dives, then yeah, we'll be seeing a flight of 8 cut down to you, the sole survivor, in a few minutes.

 

The only thing saving Allied AI in the early war period, is that Oscars don't use cannons, and Zeros have low cannon capacity. So, that's something.

 

Aircraft specific AI behavior, and considering what it's flying against would be a gigantic game-changer for single player.

This would change our experience not only with a Zero vs Wildcat scenario, or Oscar vs P-40 etc (where it's simply required) but also in other engagements as well, like a P-47 vs anything else, etc. I'd love to see this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Gambit21

[Noisemaker]

16 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

With SP, with the current AI state...absolutely.

However I don't expect PTO to be released with the AI in it's current state.

 

I don't see the point in debating Italy, which is just not going to happen here, any time soon if ever.

I think the infeasibility of Italy became most clear to me watching this...

 

 

 

 

"No way any Dev team is going to take on that landscape, cities, towns, landmarks" etc etc etc.

That was my opinion and impression at the time, and still is...right or wrong. Daniel just said "too much to do" so it seems they agree as well.

 

That said, I'd love for you to get your favorite theater at some point, some how, with some sim or another.

 

 

And yet they did Stalingrad, including the very detailed Barmaley Fountain...

It's presumptuous for you to assume that Italy is my favourite theatre.  It's not, just simply the next I'd like to see, given where we are with the development of this sim.  An eastern front Hungary/Romania, would also whet my appetite, if large urban maps are off the menu.

[oc2209]

48 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Aircraft specific AI behavior, and considering what it's flying against would be a gigantic game-changer for single player.

This would change our experience not only with a Zero vs Wildcat scenario, or Oscar vs P-40 etc (where it's simply required) but also in other engagements as well, like a P-47 vs anything else, etc. I'd love to see this.

 

In theory it shouldn't be that complicated.

 

The AI already has behavior that tells it to boom and zoom when you have a slower plane. If you watch how 109s act in Russian careers (you as the Russians), this behavior will become very apparent. It's frankly a bitch to deal with, since the Yak just doesn't have the horsepower to effectively counter it. Only the La-5FN can cope.

 

I can fully see American planes acting the same way, if specifically instructed by the programming. The big difference is, the 109 has great acceleration and climb rate, and okay diving ability.

 

American planes circa 1942 will only be able to dive, and roll. The performance disparity between a P-40/Wildcat and the Japanese will not be in the American's favor nearly as much as a 109 vs Russians. The AI might need some special instruction in this regard; maybe have it make more use of roll-based maneuvers.

 

However, by the time Hellcats and Corsairs arrive on the scene, the regular AI that we have now could easily handle slower Japanese planes. Well, relatively easily.

 

So the major AI issue really only exists in the early portion of the Pacific.

Edited November 18, 2022 by oc2209

[Gambit21]

Ahh...I'd completely forgotten that some of the AI behavior had already been modified...thanks for the reminder.

So then something like an Oscar vs a P-38, or Zeke vs Wildcat would take special measures.

 

There's a story about a pair of P-38's that attacked a lone Oscar down on the deck, and tried to kill him for 20 minutes, taking turns making passes.

They finally gave up and went home.

[oc2209]

3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

There's a story about a pair of P-38's that attacked a lone Oscar down on the deck, and tried to kill him for 20 minutes, taking turns making passes.

They finally gave up and went home.

 

This wasn't an incident related to Thomas McGuire's death, was it?

 

Regardless, I always think of him as the Oscar's most famous association. It must've been a royal pain to shoot down when flown well. 

[Gambit21]

21 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

This wasn't an incident related to Thomas McGuire's death, was it?

 

Regardless, I always think of him as the Oscar's most famous association. It must've been a royal pain to shoot down when flown well. 

 

Not sure, I'll have to look him up...but there was no death associated with the encounter that I recall.

 

I think the Oscar was either the only WWII aircraft, or 1 of the very few WWII aircraft that would do a double Immelmann.

If there's another aircraft that could to this, I have no idea what it was.

 

 

 

 

[oc2209]

2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I think the Oscar was either the only WWII aircraft, or 1 of the very few WWII aircraft that would do a double Immelmann.

If there's another aircraft that could to this, I have no idea what it was.

 

 

Interesting. The AI might also need some special programming for it (and the Zero), besides American planes. I mean, if we want it to do more with Japanese agility than turn and loop.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Funny thing about the Ki43, when IJAAF pilots first transitioned to it from the Ki27 they didn't like it because it wasn't maneuverable enough.

 

Think about that for a bit.