Now what?

[jollyjack]

9 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

I am anxiously waiting for a clearance from on high before posting anything. I'm even avoiding posting pics of more of my models in the off topic section to avoid having someone think that I'm leaving them hints about things that might have anything to do with IL-2's path forward. 

We have some internal meetings going on to sync up how info will be posted on both the RU and ENG sides to avoid stuff getting dropped early or incomplete. And the schedule for that is still being worked out between engineering and my management. In summary, that means that nothing will be hinted at, shared, leaked or teased until it has been approved for posting. I like my job and prefer to keep it. ?

 

Now that's actually politics ... we were punished for that, and told things like never, never, never to be political.

[Bonnot]

6 hours ago, oc2209 said:

a plane being worth a crappy one-topping delivery pizza (full price) or a cup of coffee (sale price)

Please let me know : what is a cup of coffee worth $ 19.95 ???

[danielprates]

22 hours ago, jollyjack said:

 

i hate John Wayne movies ..

 

Judging from the poster you may be watching the not-so-great french dubbed versions.

 

"Attandez, pèlerin!"

[Bonnot]

7 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Oh come on. Nobody watches John Wayne movies for great acting...get clue.

I love Fred Astaire movies, but not because he's some great example of superb acting.

 

Memories of Sargent Stryker........?    or Think Pink ......?

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, danielprates said:

Judging from the poster you may be watching the not-so-great french dubbed versions.

 

"Attandez, pèlerin!"

 

??????????????

Who knows of great french dubbed versions for those movies  !

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, Bonnot said:

Please let me know : what is a cup of coffee worth $ 19.95 ???

In Norway that is two cups and two waffles. 
I gladly pay that for a plane

[MajorMagee]

13 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

That time will be coming. Not soon enough for some folks, but it will be coming.

For those of you who have never taken a marketing course, they are trying to avoid becoming the next shining example of the Osborne effect.

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

34 minutes ago, 216th_Lusekofte said:

In Norway that is two cups and two waffles. 
I gladly pay that for a plane

In Poland it's much more , average miday meal for 2 plus a kind.

[sevenless]

47 minutes ago, 216th_Lusekofte said:

In Norway that is two cups and two waffles. 
I gladly pay that for a plane

 

In Germany you get a crate of beer for that. Tough choices indeed ?

 

[Ribbon]

1 hour ago, 216th_Lusekofte said:

In Norway that is two cups and two waffles. 
I gladly pay that for a plane

In my cantri you can by a goat for dat muney

[jollyjack]

But you have to catch it first ...

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by jollyjack

[Koziolek]

1 hour ago, 216th_Lusekofte said:

In Norway that is two cups and two waffles. 
I gladly pay that for a plane

I think more important is how many hours you have to work to be able to buy it

[Bonnot]

 

.....Goats, weissbeer ( !!! ) , waffles, Pizza,  now we see  why we......?

 

Please don't say this One was not a good Actor  !!!

[danielprates]

4 hours ago, Bonnot said:

 

 

??????????????

Who knows of great french dubbed versions for those movies  !

 

A french remake would be even better i imagine Jean Reno sayin "ça va vache-garçons!" while dressing a leatherhide bonnet, then spitting bordeaux on a limoges spittoon.

[Lusekofte]

6 hours ago, Koziolek said:

I think more important is how many hours you have to work to be able to buy it

This is also difficult to communicate with Norwegian currency being s***. But for me it is 15 minutes daytime and maybe 3 minutes at night. I am self employed 

[sevenless]

 

3 hours ago, Koziolek said:

I think more important is how many hours you have to work to be able to buy it

 

Maybe correlate that to minimum wage of a given country:

 

Poland: 4,09 EUR / hour

UK: 12,05 EUR / hour

Germany: 12 EUR / hour

Spain: 7,29 EUR / hour

Norway: 12 EUR / hour (1)

USA: 6,93 EUR / hour

 

https://countryeconomy.com/national-minimum-wage

 

(1) No minimum wage in Norway. Lowest average wage/hour (125 NOK) instead https://take-profit.org/en/statistics/wages/norway/

[CountZero]

31 minutes ago, 216th_Lusekofte said:

This is also difficult to communicate with Norwegian currency being shit. But for me it is 15 minutes daytime and maybe 3 minutes at night. I am self employed 

So then would you think same if its priced like your 8h of work ?

 

They dont plan to sell stuff only in oil ritch countrys ?

 

There is reason why games are priced like they are

[Lusekofte]

14 minutes ago, CountZero said:

So then would you think same if its priced like your 8h of work ?

 

They dont plan to sell stuff only in oil ritch countrys ?

 

There is reason why games are priced like they are

I might be living in an oil rich country. But nothing is free. I got 7 employees and 5 company cars. Workload has suddenly stopped. I had to put in 20 000 € of own money last month to be able to pay my employees in time. 
I am sorry if I left an assumption of being Ritch, I am not. Norway is a hard place to live both climatic and it takes a great deal of work getting the upper hand economically 

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, 216th_Lusekofte said:

I might be living in an oil rich country. But nothing is free. I got 7 employees and 5 company cars. Workload has suddenly stopped. I had to put in 20 000 € of own money last month to be able to pay my employees in time. 
I am sorry if I left an assumption of being Ritch, I am not. Norway is a hard place to live both climatic and it takes a great deal of work getting the upper hand economically 

It was not about if your ritch or not, it was about price of game being same for whole world, so to you 20$ for airplane is like for some other countries if airplanes are 5$ or less. So it is understandable that players will think twice if they buy everything or just what they will use.

 

For me in this game where they have limited number of things they can make, main decider is if i wont more of this.So if i dont wont them to make bombers i would avoid buying bomber airplanes and buy more fighter airplane, so they can then from data see what players mostly buy, and on that make more of this. 

Spitfire XIV bubble is to me wrong way, so i will avoid it, like i see their decision to make Churchil was wrong so i avoid it and so on... They cant make all airplanes as collectors , 2-3 per year at best get anounced) so choice is more important then 20$ it costs.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by CountZero

[MisterSmith]

Back on topic please.

 

Smith

[Irishratticus72]

7 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

In Germany you get a crate of beer for that. Tough choices indeed ?

 

More a Maisel's man myself.

[sevenless]

4 minutes ago, Irishratticus72 said:

More a Maisel's man myself.

 

Love that Bayreuth stuff. Had a visit at the brewery back in 1989. Good times ?

[Irishratticus72]

1 minute ago, sevenless said:

 

Love that Bayreuth stuff. Had a visit at the brewery back in 1989. Good times ?

T'is proper tasty.

[Voidhunger]

I like this from Germany, thats a good stuff

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, Bonnot said:

Please let me know : what is a cup of coffee worth $ 19.95 ???

 

That's why I put 'full price' and 'sale price' in parentheses.

 

The full price of a collector plane is about equal to a basic delivery pizza: $20-25 (especially with tip and delivery charge).

 

A cup of coffee is about equal to the sale price, which is usually 50-75% off. You can get most fighter planes on sale for $5 (not immediately after they've been released, obviously).

[BladeMeister]

48 minutes ago, MisterSmith said:

Back on topic please.

 

Smith

And what was the topic again?

 

S!Blade<><

[Trooper117]

40 minutes ago, BladeMeister said:

And what was the topic again?

 

S!Blade<><

 

Smiths crusade against all humans...

[MisterSmith]

This type of topic does have some latitude but the beer, oil, and wealth distribution are a bit afield of the flight sim. Steer it back so I don't have to intervene, please.

 

Smith

[Gambit21]

19 minutes ago, MisterSmith said:

This type of topic does have some latitude but the beer, oil, and wealth distribution are a bit afield of the flight sim. Steer it back so I don't have to intervene, please.

 

Smith

 

...or

 

One of the topics in this.........thread...has a future.

The other three....do not.

 

 

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

The "sim" just ain't what it used to be, for me things have been off for the last year or so and with the departure of two key members of the team I find my enthusiasm at it's lowest point. I'm not too worried about what comes out. The DM (and ammunition damage) has been all over the place for god knows how long, bomber crew AI is pathetic and larger aircraft still seem to not be able to soak up damage. Whatever comes out is going to have to be pretty special to ignite a real interest once again. Maybe I'm just getting too old for all of this? 

[Canvas25]

10 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

For those of you who have never taken a marketing course, they are trying to avoid becoming the next shining example of the Osborne effect.

 

 

This^

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The "sim" just ain't what it used to be, for me things have been off for the last year or so and with the departure of two key members of the team I find my enthusiasm at it's lowest point. I'm not too worried about what comes out. The DM (and ammunition damage) has been all over the place for god knows how long, bomber crew AI is pathetic and larger aircraft still seem to not be able to soak up damage. Whatever comes out is going to have to be pretty special to ignite a real interest once again. Maybe I'm just getting too old for all of this? 

 

Maybe? All of your complaints would seem to apply to the original release as well.

 

Btw. I'm not sure if larger aircraft should be that much more durable. They are made out of the same materials as smaller aircraft, and have larger aerodynamic loads on them, more fuel on board etc. Theoretically they should be just as vulnerable to fire and to structural failure (if not more-so).

 

That said, they might have larger areas where damage isn't critical (so the probability of hitting something important as well as something non-important in the same burst is lower than a single-engined fighter), and it might be harder for small caliber rounds to penetrate far into the airframe. But these would seem to be counterbalanced by the other potential issues that go with size (and once one hits 20mm or 30mm ammunition, a lot of the benefits of size would begin to disappear anyway).

 

 

  

 

[CountZero]

they said in stream DM is one thing they aim to improve

[Avimimus]

44 minutes ago, CountZero said:

they said in stream DM is one thing they aim to improve

 

True. I'd personally prefer to see AI be prioritised (with DM improvements confined to ship flooding and train derailments)... as I think the damage model is quite adequate for the most part in its current form. But they definitely said that redoing the damage model, including adding a lot of smaller systems, is a priority. Hopefully it'll extend to improving the realism of wing failures in Flying Circus (it'd be great if they modelled each wire and each joiner separately).

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

True. I'd personally prefer to see AI be prioritised (with DM improvements confined to ship flooding and train derailments)... as I think the damage model is quite adequate for the most part in its current form. But they definitely said that redoing the damage model, including adding a lot of smaller systems, is a priority.

 

I'm sure AI will get a makeover in the 'new project'. Everything else seems to be getting updated, even lowly GUI (which I honestly couldn't care less about--but I can see why they think improving it is important to potential new customers).

 

For the record, I do agree that the current DM is, as you say, adequate. The biggest flaws have been addressed.

 

Except for the 109's glass wings.

[357th_KW]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Maybe? All of your complaints would seem to apply to the original release as well.

 

Btw. I'm not sure if larger aircraft should be that much more durable. They are made out of the same materials as smaller aircraft, and have larger aerodynamic loads on them, more fuel on board etc. Theoretically they should be just as vulnerable to fire and to structural failure (if not more-so).

 

That said, they might have larger areas where damage isn't critical (so the probability of hitting something important as well as something non-important in the same burst is lower than a single-engined fighter), and it might be harder for small caliber rounds to penetrate far into the airframe. But these would seem to be counterbalanced by the other potential issues that go with size (and once one hits 20mm or 30mm ammunition, a lot of the benefits of size would begin to disappear anyway).

 

 

  

 

 

The experience during the war was very clear in this regard - larger, multi-engine aircraft were significantly more durable and survivable then smaller single-engine aircraft.

 

As an example, the USAF Project Rand (a statistical examination of aircraft vulnerability and damage done after the war) looked at USN losses to Japanese anti-aircraft fire from Sept 1944 through August 1945.  The loss/hit ratio for the single-engine aircraft (F6F, F4U, SB2C, TBM) was 25.7%, while the ratio for the PB4Y(Navy Liberator) was 13%.  The results are further broken down into what part of the aircraft was hit - for example hits to the powerplant of the singles resulted in 69% losses per hit, vs just 36% for the PB4Y.  Even in the fuel system, the loss rate was 61% for the singles, and 25% for the PB4Y.

 

There's another less detailed section in that same report, comparing various categories of bombers with fighters across all theaters, that shows bomber loss rates to anti-aircraft fire as being well under 10% of aircraft which are hit being lost, vs over 25% for fighters.

 

The USAF also did a long series of tests post war, where they shot surplus aircraft with a wide variety of weapons.  Inside the study is a nice comparison of the B-25 vs the P-47 (figure 21, pg 55)where they show the probability of 10 random hits from various weapons producing a kill.  As an example from this test, using 20mm Hispanos they gave the B-25 about a 5-10% chance of being downed immediately by 10 random hits, vs over 50% for the P-47.

 

Obviously, you could find examples of very fragile multi-engine aircraft, with little or no pilot armor, no self-sealing tanks, water cooled engines and light construction that would fare much worse then the rugged US bombers described above.  But in an apples to apples comparison, the multi-engines were significantly more durable then singles.

[Koziolek]

4 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

For the record, I do agree that the current DM is, as you say, adequate. The biggest flaws have been addressed.

 

Except for the 109's glass wings.

I agree, but for WW2 aircrafts only

2 hours ago, 357th_KW said:

 

where they show the probability of 10 random hits from various weapons producing a kill. 

I agree that the same 10 rounds will do more damage to the smaller craft than when spread over the larger area of the multiengine bomber. But on the other hand with the same burst it is easier to hit the bigger target more times

[Bonnot]

12 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Whatever comes out is going to have to be pretty special to ignite a real interest once again. Maybe I'm just getting too old for all of this? 

A question I consider everytime I try understanding today world -games included- and they take now most of my "awake"  time !   If you have a response ....

 

Incidentally ,just beside my screen, I have a Beer "cooling" container (????)  I got in California decades ago , who said :

" Beer is the answer,  anyone remember the question ? "

[oc2209]

10 hours ago, Koziolek said:

I agree that the same 10 rounds will do more damage to the smaller craft than when spread over the larger area of the multiengine bomber. But on the other hand with the same burst it is easier to hit the bigger target more times

 

Yeah, regarding multi-engine plane durability, something we should bear in mind: in a sim, gunnery is far easier than in reality. There is also a secondary factor at play when attacking a bomber: we have no fear of the gunners. And I'm not talking about the quality of the gunner AI; I'm saying on an instinctual level, we have no fear, no adrenaline rush (not equal to how it'd be in reality, at least), etc.

 

So, we can carefully and leisurely aim at specific weak points on a bomber, and pour hits into that area, with far greater ease than an actual pilot could.

 

In that sense, a multi-engine craft, in a sim, has no special durability over a single engine plane.

[IckyATLAS]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:49 PM, jollyjack said:

But you have to catch it first ...

 

I saw many of these goat trees in Marocco when going by car from Marrakesh to Essaouira. An amazing sight, and sometimes funny depending on what the goats do.

They seem used to eat the tree foliage. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by IckyATLAS

[CAFulcrum]

I have a goat calender with a picture like that for July; according to the calender it's still July ?

Miss my small boer herd.

 

Well if it isn't Malta then snap... Hard to think of actual alternatives.

 

I would actually personally like to see Burma/flying tigers, but anyone who wants this should try the theatre out in il2:1946: it's a massacre.  Mostly no-warning airfield attacks with massive waves of Japanese against Buffalos (would assume spits for this game)... allied aircraft fared extremely poorly, the zero was not just an agile plane but also outperformed allied aircraft of the time, it's not going to be much fun.  They would have to get into a lot of early Japanese designs as well, which might be difficult to do documentation-wise.

 

imo what the game needs are heavy bombers.  So maybe we will see Berlin, because even if they can't do that now it would be a good map to have when they do.