AI Squadmates Refusing to Attack JU-88s on Intercept Flight - mission zip attached

[UlyssesCockmore]

Hullo Pat - I know there's been reports of this sort of thing in the past, but through searching I couldn't find a definite answer.

 

I've just flown an intercept flight during the BoB, and really struggled to get the AI to engage the JU-88s, even when I flew them almost alongside it. I've tried issuing "Attack Air Targets" and "Rejoin Mission" commands to no avail.

 

I usually play co-op, where this isn't so much of an issue since we can coordinate attacks with each other.

 

I've attached the mission files (hopefully I've picked the right ones) in a zip to see if this would help. I don't know if anybody else is seeing the same behaviour either?

 

 

MattSoloRAF 1941-07-07.zip

[TheSNAFU]

I’ve had a similar experiences where my flight on an intercept mission darn near flew into a group of German fighters and nobody engaged anybody. Everyone just kept flying their waypoints. This is on the beta Normandy version. Units engaging or even seeing any units seems to be an problem in the beta. 

[Vishnu]

I also had my squadron completely bypass 2 ju52’s being escorted by 4 110E’s over the channel, only to ignore a flight of 3 Stukas as well.    I went in alone, got one JU52 and 3 110’s.   Then went home bingo ammo all alone.  

[PatrickAWlson]

24 minutes ago, Vishnu said:

I also had my squadron completely bypass 2 ju52’s being escorted by 4 110E’s over the channel, only to ignore a flight of 3 Stukas as well.    I went in alone, got one JU52 and 3 110’s.   Then went home bingo ammo all alone.  

 

One thing to remember is that radar, implemented as spotters, are now showing enemy units much further out than they would previously.  The AI, however, will not react to any enemy not in visual range.  I have not seen any issues with AI attacking once they get close enough.  My suggestion, if you want to go after enemies that are further away is to be the flight leader.  You can make yourself flight lead regardless of rank.  

 

I am sorry that I cannot turn this into everything that people expect, but I am limited.  A mission designed by hand will naturally push players into contact.  Career mode has planes waiting to spawn and drives you right by them.  I do not do that.  The missions are planned as they are and unfold as they do.  If the AI will not attack when/where/how you think it should then I'm not sure what I can do about it.

[Vishnu]

19 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

One thing to remember is that radar, implemented as spotters, are now showing enemy units much further out than they would previously.  The AI, however, will not react to any enemy not in visual range.  I have not seen any issues with AI attacking once they get close enough.  My suggestion, if you want to go after enemies that are further away is to be the flight leader.  You can make yourself flight lead regardless of rank.  

 

I am sorry that I cannot turn this into everything that people expect, but I am limited.  A mission designed by hand will naturally push players into contact.  Career mode has planes waiting to spawn and drives you right by them.  I do not do that.  The missions are planned as they are and unfold as they do.  If the AI will not attack when/where/how you think it should then I'm not sure what I can do about it.

Thanks for the response Pat, but the weird thing was, I could see them.   Not just on  radar.   Don’t get me wrong.  It’s not a deal breaker.   Just an observation. I understand you’ve done your best.  Thanks again for all your work in maintaining this project!   I only fly with PWCG. 

[Hotaru_Ito]

47 minutes ago, Vishnu said:

Thanks for the response Pat, but the weird thing was, I could see them.   Not just on  radar.   Don’t get me wrong.  It’s not a deal breaker.   Just an observation. I understand you’ve done your best.  Thanks again for all your work in maintaining this project!   I only fly with PWCG. 

 

Try moving the first patrol or intercept waypoint so it's right next to the ingress waypoint. You can shuffle the other waypoints around a bit to fill the gap. That helps with AI-not-engaging issues for me.

[PatrickAWlson]

24 minutes ago, Hotaru_Ito said:

 

Try moving the first patrol or intercept waypoint so it's right next to the ingress waypoint. You can shuffle the other waypoints around a bit to fill the gap. That helps with AI-not-engaging issues for me.

 

Unless the ingress WP has a different priority than the patrol WP I am not understanding why there would be a difference.  Without that distinction they have a different name and location but are otherwise they are just low priority WPs.

 

Next time something like this happens post the mission file.  Even if I can't solve it I can repost it in complaints.

 

[Hotaru_Ito]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Unless the ingress WP has a different priority than the patrol WP I am not understanding why there would be a difference.  Without that distinction they have a different name and location but are otherwise they are just low priority WPs.

 

Next time something like this happens post the mission file.  Even if I can't solve it I can repost it in complaints.

 

 

OK, here's a mission that demonstrates the issue. Zip includes .eng and .mission files.

 

Patrol with air start, player leading flight with 3 AI wingmen, one each of AI levels 1, 2, and 3. Waypoint priorities are correct--air start, ingress, and patrol are all priority 0. I've moved the first patrol waypoint out of the way a bit so it's easy to avoid for testing. A nice big swarm of enemy planes is off to the southeast of the starting point.

 

If you AVOID the first patrol waypoint and head southeast, the level 3 guy (the Hauptmann, who was supposed to be leading the flight) goes after the Peshkas but the other two don't. They break formation but almost immediately form back up. You might be able goad them into attacking, but only if you fly right up the Peshkas' tailpipes. This is interesting because it suggests AI level factors into this somehow--maybe higher level AI is more aggressive?

 

If you HIT the first patrol waypoint before heading southeast, all three immediately break formation and go after the Peshkas as soon as they enter icon range.

 

Hope this helps!

Dietrich 1941-10-01.zip

 

 

PS. After a couple more tests, the behavior if you avoid the waypoint is not totally consistent. The Hauptmann usually goes after the Peshkas, the Oberleutnant occasionally, the Oberfeldwebel almost never. However, if you hit the waypoint, the behavior is 100% consistent: all three attack.

 

All this is with a fresh PWCG install and "mods off" in Il-2. It's also with no interference from me: I'm not either attacking or issuing "attack aircraft" commands. I just fly near the enemies and watch what the three wingmen do.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Hotaru_Ito

[Stonehouse]

Not sure if it is relevant to the discussion but I can (I believe) confirm that AI skill influences search and threat ranges - I've seen various parameters while working on the AI gunnery mod which I left unchanged as I didn't know how they impacted things for the fighter pilot AI. I did increase search ranges for AI air gunners.

 

So, there are general level values not related to skill for wingman search distances and number of attempts and times to search plus radio timeouts between AI as well as then threat and covered threat ranges and wingman and target co-ordination range and situation timeout for each skill level.  Novice has a very low threat threshold of 300m and covered threat of 3000m while aces have 1.8km and 10km respectively. Presumably this represents better sighting skill and situational awareness. Target coordination range is 10km across the board even though it can be set to vary by skill. Ditto wingman co-ordination range at 8km. Situation timeout is longer for novices than it is for aces. 5 secs going to 1 secs. This last one might explain why AI continue to shoot at aircraft which are hopelessly damaged but still show an icon but I haven't had time to test it.

 

Wingman values are as below (text = google translate)

Spoiler

// Steshov. Par-ry for searching the master slaves and estimating the backlog
WingmanSearchT = 30.0     //Range check period to wingmen
WingmanSearchDMax = 7000.0 //Critical Range
WingmanSearchDMin = 3000.0 //Minimum sufficient range to stop waiting and searching
WingmanSearchTimesToSearch = 3 //Number of consecutive overranges (with increasing) leading to the inclusion of the search mode
WingmanSearchWait   = 3 //Number of range checks characterizing the duration of the standby mode
WingmanSearchLength       = 6 //Number of range checks characterizing the duration of the search mode

SeniourWingmanTOSpeedTreshold = 20.0 // speed limit of the senior wingman, if this limit is exceeded, the wingman bot is allowed to take off, in m/s.

WingmanRadioTimeoutMin = 5.0   // (seconds) timeout of radio messages for the slave, the timer is set randomly from Min to Max .
WingmanRadioTimeoutMax = 45.0   // (seconds) radio message timeout for the slave.

 

It would be interesting to replay that mission with the AI as flight lead and see if they engage short of the patrol waypoint.  I've a feeling they would. With the human lead it sounds like the AI is going to each be a separate case governed by likely the threat threshold until the patrol waypoint. In an ideal world with a human lead the Hauptmann should hold formation and give a spotting report and wait for orders regardless unless under attack already.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Stonehouse