Regarding the next update 5.002

[=RS=EnvyC]

LW been getting away with broken DM and FM for years, the Devs finally fix the DM part and you're crying foul.

 

Git gud.

[Mekyro]

Why are pilots of both sides so hostile to each other. This is no war- we're playing a video game for funsies

[354thFG_Rails]

[=RS=EnvyC]

48 minutes ago, Mekyro said:

Why are pilots of both sides so hostile to each other. This is no war- we're playing a video game for funsies

 

Blue only players have made a concerted effort on the forums to try and prevent fixes to the game that benefit Allied aircraft. For example it took monumental work on the part of Yak Panther to mathematically show the .50 calibre bullet in its original state was representative of training ammo, no AP ammo. The mods on the forums, along with the testing team, also have people with biased interests so getting things fixed has been an excercise in frustration.

 

The issues with the DM took a while to notice however it took two and a half years to fix with extensive community research and support. Even recently the 109 was buffed to unrealistic standards with regards to its high speed roll authority which just doesn't match historical documents at all, and there are certain interested parties who are intent on preserving that.

 

Basically allied and fluid players want a realistic and fair ecosystem. Blue only players have become accustomed to exploiting faults in the DM and FM and what you're seeing is the result.

Edited October 19, 2022 by =RS=EnvyC
Detail

[-332FG-Magic_Zach]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:30 AM, ACG_PanzerVI said:

@CountZero  hope you enjoy shooting down 'bots, because you won't be shooting at us in MP anymore.  Most LW folks are already leaving.  Servers are 2:1 allied and LW is declining.  Call us when its fixed and you want to play again.  Maybe then it'll be our collective issue, not just 'oh, now you're getting yours you LW boys!'  

OH the irony considering the last 2 years.  This is just too good ?

[ACG_Jaydog]

12 hours ago, =RS=EnvyC said:

 

Blue only players have made a concerted effort on the forums to try and prevent fixes to the game that benefit Allied aircraft. For example it took monumental work on the part of Yak Panther to mathematically show the .50 calibre bullet in its original state was representative of training ammo, no AP ammo. The mods on the forums, along with the testing team, also have people with biased interests so getting things fixed has been an excercise in frustration.

 

The issues with the DM took a while to notice however it took two and a half years to fix with extensive community research and support. Even recently the 109 was buffed to unrealistic standards with regards to its high speed roll authority which just doesn't match historical documents at all, and there are certain interested parties who are intent on preserving that.

 

Basically allied and fluid players want a realistic and fair ecosystem. Blue only players have become accustomed to exploiting faults in the DM and FM and what you're seeing is the result.

 

 

Blue only players eh? Lol. That's the most ridiculous claim yet. 

[=RS=EnvyC]

10 hours ago, ACG_Jaydog said:

 

 

Blue only players eh? Lol. That's the most ridiculous claim yet. 

 

This you?

https://combatbox.net/en/pilot/465/ACG_Jaydog/?tour=51

[the_emperor]

That P-51 really can tank. I was shot up over France an managed to crawl back over the channel to The english coast:

https://combatbox.net/de/sortie/1781994/?tour=51

[oc2209]

On 10/2/2022 at 5:14 AM, JG4_Qetzalcoatl said:

You mentioned "Dynamic Visual Damage (DVD) tech for all aircraft in the Great Battles series (the projectile holes will appear at exact place of the impact corresponding to the skin material and round type) ". I hope this will clarify how bad your plane is really damaged. I´m mostly flying Bf109s and since the last update und the enhancement of the .50cal I lost more wings than in the last 1.5 years as a whole. This occurs despite the fact that I can detect only superficial damage especially at the outer wing section. If you apply too much G-load after you got slightly hit your wing will crack like a cookie but not at the end section but right beyond the inner section.

 

I finally experienced this myself in single player.

 

I'm not going to get involved in the poo slinging about multiplayer equality since I don't give a flying fu** about multiplayer. Nor am I saying that .50s should be nerfed, blah blah blah.

 

All I'm saying is, the 109's wing is really, really weak now:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Looking closely, I see 6 AP holes on the wing that breaks. 1 HE hole. All from a MiG-3 firing a single 12.7mm. The underside AP hole on the flap might be a 7.62mm. 

 

The HE hit is on the underside of the flap, which shouldn't mean anything in terms of compromising the wing integrity. Which leaves only 3 to 4x12.7mm AP hits that actually had a chance of damaging the spar.

 

I'm not counting the AP hole that's closest to the leading edge, as I don't see how that could turn backwards to hit the spar. I was never hit from the front.

Edited November 1, 2022 by oc2209

[MajorMagee]

A fair proportion of the structural load is carried through the wing skins. Put a decent size hole in it, and the load path shifts to a different part of the sub structure. Throw in the sudden application of load from a high G turn, and even undamaged ribs and spars can start to give way. You're situation appears to be that the loss of tension carrying capacity on the lower skin from the pretty large hole near the main spar led to the load shifting aft. With the application of full aileron the upward force buckled the upper skin, and folded up the ribs, eventually twisting off the outer portion of the spar.

 

Prior to the 1970s, the prevailing engineering philosophy of aircraft structures was to ensure that airworthiness was maintained with a single part broken. The level of Damage and Fault Tolerance we routinely do on today's aircraft structures to insure sufficient redundancy in all foreseeable situations was not really an option in WW2 fighter aircraft. 

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

A fair proportion of the structural load is carried through the wing skins. Put a decent size hole in it, and the load path shifts to a different part of the sub structure. Throw in the sudden application of load from a high G turn, and even undamaged ribs and spars can start to give way. You're situation appears to be that the loss of tension carrying capacity on the lower skin from the pretty large hole near the main spar led to the load shifting aft. With the application of full aileron the upward force buckled the upper skin, and folded up the ribs, eventually twisting off the outer portion of the spar.

 

Prior to the 1970s, the prevailing engineering philosophy of aircraft structures was to ensure that airworthiness was maintained with a single part broken. The level of Damage and Fault Tolerance we routinely do on today's aircraft structures to insure sufficient redundancy in all foreseeable situations was not really an option in WW2 fighter aircraft. 

 

Your attempt to explain this in real terms is laudable but entirely, I mean 100%, not applicable to anything in this sim.

 

First of all, the 12.7mm HE hole in the underside of the wing is on the flap. The flap is not a load-bearing structure. Secondly, it's a single 12.7mm HE hole.

 

Here's another plane with a great deal more holes in both its wings:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I left the accelerated time on because the recording would be too long and be too large a file/slow to upload otherwise. Also the same reason why I stopped recording and let him fly around for about 5 minutes before I baited him into 'attacking' me, whereupon I started recording again:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Note that the DVD system won't display properly when you begin a recording after damage is applied. If you record it all in one continuous play, it will show all the DVD decals.

 

Anyway, he does a complete roll with his wings in tatters. Nothing breaks off.

 

Now, watch this:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Realistically, in my opinion, the P-51's wing shouldn't break off from that hit. The wing tip should be shredded, yes, but there's no reason to break off where it does.

 

The important factor to note here, is that the game doesn't care about anything you spoke of. It doesn't model any of that. What it does model: total damage done to a specific section of a wing. If the level of damage it can take is exceeded, then the wing will snap at the nearest pre-determined breakage location. There will also be a telltale damage indicator:

 

Spoiler

 

Note the 'dotted line' that appears immediately below the white star. That's the pre-determined break location. Even though the 30mm impact is well outside that area and realistically should not compromise the spars located there, the wing still breaks at that specific location.

 

The major problem with 109 wing breakage, is that the dotted line does not appear first. Also, the breakages are occurring in the mid part of the wing, not near the tip; the middle of the wing is notoriously hard to break on most planes in this sim.

 

It's my theory that the 109's increase to roll rate has something to do with the recent wing breakage phenomenon. Some kind of physics input is being exaggerated due to the faster roll speed. When the spar takes any hits at all, a quick roll breaks it.

 

If my spar was sufficiently damaged to be broken by conventional means (as depicted in the P-51 example), then the maneuver I used to quickly lose altitude should have been what broke the wing; I pulled a lot more Gs and caused a lot more stress to the wing than anything a simple roll could do.

[MajorMagee]

I was referring to the large through hole adjacent to the right wheel well visible at 1:07, not the one in the flap or the aileron.

 

p.s. I watched it again and the "simple roll" was combined with an application of elevator to tighten the turn.

Edited November 1, 2022 by MajorMagee

[oc2209]

29 minutes ago, MajorMagee said:

I was referring to the large through hole adjacent to the right wheel well visible at 1:07, not the one in the flap or the aileron.

 

That's a pre-made damage graphic that has no real bearing on the location of damage in a given area.

 

There was no actual hole there. For the purposes of your argument, only DVD hit locations would actually matter.

 

29 minutes ago, MajorMagee said:

p.s. I watched it again and the "simple roll" was combined with an application of elevator to tighten the turn.

 

Right, but since the hole that you mentioned wasn't in fact there, then your entire argument is invalid. There was no compromise to the load-bearing skin on the underside of the wing.

 

And, as I also explained, the sim doesn't even calculate damage the way you initially described. I mean no disrespect to you or the sim, but it isn't nearly that complicated.

 

What I'm trying to ascertain here, is why wing breakage occurs, according to the established damage modelling of this sim. Not the real world.

Edited November 1, 2022 by oc2209

[oc2209]

For a point of reference, here's a Spitfire wing breaking:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The crack in the wing shows up around 1:15-1:16.

 

It's plainly nothing to do with aerodynamics or structure load, and everything to do with the fact that the final AP shot was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

 

All told, the entire starboard wing has 4x13mm HE strikes; 4x13mm AP strikes; 2x20mm HE strikes, and 1x20mm AP strike.

 

Once again, the big difference between the Spitfire's break and the 109's, is that the crack shows up first. That tells me the game has determined X damage value for the location has been reached. It appears that it was the AP 20mm that did the trick; probably registered as hitting one or both spars.

 

When a 109's wing breaks without A) showing a crack first, and B) after only a handful of 12.7mm (or smaller) hits, that tells me something is not being registered properly. That behavior is inconsistent with how every other plane registers and visually represents damage.