La5N nose dive in a turn

[Chris65]

Howdy folks;  I have been messing around with the La5n trying to get to grips with her so I can perhaps, one day, go online.  Since my dog fighting sucks I have watched the two UT videos on the La5n (how to) but my problem is thus:  I use TrackIR5 and when I get into a turn while keeping my eye on the enemy I always end up diving even though it feels like I am pulling on the stick.  When I first start flying (in air) the first thing I do is reset all trims and then set nose heavy since the beast wants to always climb, I assume this is what is causing the nose dive, so how do I fix this problem (besides hitting the trim reset when entering a turn, then setting it nose heavy again which is not optimal).

 

Because I always end up in a diving turn I have to take a glance forward, which of course loses the enemy a/c in my sight line when I look back again.  Not sure how those ace pilots on UT do, but it is beyond me at this point, staying level while staring backwards at the enemy.

 

For the training I am dueling La5n vs Me110 and I struggle (sad huh).

[MAJ_stug41]

Got a rudder control?

[oc2209]

39 minutes ago, Chris65 said:

Howdy folks;  I have been messing around with the La5n trying to get to grips with her so I can perhaps, one day, go online.  Since my dog fighting sucks I have watched the two UT videos on the La5n (how to) but my problem is thus:  I use TrackIR5 and when I get into a turn while keeping my eye on the enemy I always end up diving even though it feels like I am pulling on the stick.  When I first start flying (in air) the first thing I do is reset all trims and then set nose heavy since the beast wants to always climb, I assume this is what is causing the nose dive, so how do I fix this problem (besides hitting the trim reset when entering a turn, then setting it nose heavy again which is not optimal).

 

Because I always end up in a diving turn I have to take a glance forward, which of course loses the enemy a/c in my sight line when I look back again.  Not sure how those ace pilots on UT do, but it is beyond me at this point, staying level while staring backwards at the enemy.

 

For the training I am dueling La5n vs Me110 and I struggle (sad huh).

 

At face value, this sounds more like you're stalling.

 

Are you sure your engine management is correct? Are you using boost? What's your fuel load? If you're unsure of your engine settings, just turn them on automatic as a test to see if the plane behaves the same. At least then you can narrow down the potential list of causes. 

 

It should be possible to turn inside an AI-controlled 110G (both of us with ~50% fuel)--using the La-5's boosted engine--in a very short amount of time:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I didn't have to fight any nose-down inclinations from the plane. Which is why I'm thinking you're stalling from either pulling too hard, or not having enough power, or both.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Ball for having a green heart on a radial engined aircraft over Russia at this time, and also for the gunner firing while the right wing was on fire.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

6 hours ago, Chris65 said:

Howdy folks;  I have been messing around with the La5n trying to get to grips with her so I can perhaps, one day, go online.  Since my dog fighting sucks I have watched the two UT videos on the La5n (how to) but my problem is thus:  I use TrackIR5 and when I get into a turn while keeping my eye on the enemy I always end up diving even though it feels like I am pulling on the stick.  When I first start flying (in air) the first thing I do is reset all trims and then set nose heavy since the beast wants to always climb, I assume this is what is causing the nose dive, so how do I fix this problem (besides hitting the trim reset when entering a turn, then setting it nose heavy again which is not optimal).

 

Because I always end up in a diving turn I have to take a glance forward, which of course loses the enemy a/c in my sight line when I look back again.  Not sure how those ace pilots on UT do, but it is beyond me at this point, staying level while staring backwards at the enemy.

 

For the training I am dueling La5n vs Me110 and I struggle (sad huh).

As oc2209 suggested, it sound like you're stalling. A stall is when, in simple terms, either your speed is too slow for your wings to keep your aircraft up, or you pull up so fast that your wings lose connection with the oncoming air and drop as well (usually one a little before the other, leading to a rotation as well - this is called a "spin"). To avoid it, don't pull up too sudden and don't turn too slow. In the aircraft description, there should be something like ideal turn speed (e.g. Max. turn rate 123deg./s at 456kph). In general, you should never get below this speed in a turn.

 

With enough practice, you can feel an uncoming stall before it actually happens (the aircraft gets kinda shaky and jerky while your control surfaces lose much of their effect). Should you still get into a stall, the recovery is to stop pulling and instead move the stick forward: diving allows the plane to regain the speed necessary to fly. For a spin, add rudder in the opposite direction of the rotation while keeping your ailerons centered.

[Hoots]

7 hours ago, Chris65 said:

Howdy folks;  I have been messing around with the La5n trying to get to grips with her so I can perhaps, one day, go online.  Since my dog fighting sucks I have watched the two UT videos on the La5n (how to) but my problem is thus:  I use TrackIR5 and when I get into a turn while keeping my eye on the enemy I always end up diving even though it feels like I am pulling on the stick.  When I first start flying (in air) the first thing I do is reset all trims and then set nose heavy since the beast wants to always climb, I assume this is what is causing the nose dive, so how do I fix this problem (besides hitting the trim reset when entering a turn, then setting it nose heavy again which is not optimal).

 

Because I always end up in a diving turn I have to take a glance forward, which of course loses the enemy a/c in my sight line when I look back again.  Not sure how those ace pilots on UT do, but it is beyond me at this point, staying level while staring backwards at the enemy.

 

For the training I am dueling La5n vs Me110 and I struggle (sad huh).

Along with other suggestions, don’t think of trim as a “set it and leave it” option.  You need to retrim anytime you change your airspeed, trim for level, reset won’t do this, just sets it to neutral. 

[MAJ_stug41]

I think he just isnt using his rudder to coordinate his turns. When banking, lift vector is no longer vertical.

Imagine the vertical force being the adjacent on a right angle triangle, and the opposite bring the horizontal force. The factor of these via tangent is the hypotenuse. When in a steady state horizontal flight, the adjacent is 1, opposite 0, and via tan the bank angle 0. When banking at 45 degrees to turn, assuming all other things are equal, the adjacent of vertical force vector is now .7 from 1, so one is now descending.  

[Jaws2002]

Also don't trim nose heavy during the turn. You trim tail heavy so it's easier to turn. Watch "the ball" and use rudders to keep the ball centered, trim slightly tail heavy as you start to turn and if your speed drops too low drop one notch of flaps, to lower the stall speed. If the plane you are chasing is leveling out, pull the flaps in, and trim to neutral again.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jaws2002

[RyanR]

If you trim for full speed at level flight, all planes will be nose heavy at much slower dogfight speeds. You simply need to re-trim the plane.

 

The La-5N really likes to stay fast in combat, sorta like a 190. The 110 probably can do slow, sustained turns better.

 

-Ryan

[Chris65]

Thanks for the replies.  I am not stalling, speed is always 400+ km/hr. (I am using the info panel at bottom left while trying to make using TRACKIR5 second nature, right now I still find it a bit hard to follow a/c)

 

For those suggesting trimming the aircraft in a turn, that is a bit hard to do when you are trying to keep eyes on the enemy, and a bit distracting, but I can hit the 'reset trim' button on my stick to neutralize everything.

 

I have been using rudder (MSFF2 twister sister) in my turns but on thinking on this last night after posting I think two things may be happening: 1. too much nose down trim, may be ok in level flight but in a tight turn it is too much, and 2.  too much rudder added.

 

I will try again tonight and see how it goes.

 

Thanks for the time taken for the replies, appreciate it.

 

Chris

[BCI-Nazgul]

I fly the LA5 all the time and I've never noticed your problem.   One thing I will say is that it's not really a "turn fighter".   It is a good B and Z plane and the high roll rate can be used to dodge attacks or throw enemies off your six.

[Chris65]

27 minutes ago, BCI-Nazgul said:

I fly the LA5 all the time and I've never noticed your problem.   One thing I will say is that it's not really a "turn fighter".   It is a good B and Z plane and the high roll rate can be used to dodge attacks or throw enemies off your six.

Can you tell me how you trim your La5?  How much rudder and aileron for example?  I know it will change, but watching the UT vids it looks like -87 nose trim.

 

Just as a point, flying the Hurricane in COD-B I do not have this diving nose problem in a turn.

 

I am going to do some solo flying later today, practice looking over my shoulder and turning to figure out the joystick inputs I need, maybe my problem is...I AM FLYING THE LA5 LIKE A HURRICANE!

Watching SSS "how to La5 part 1" again, yeah I am making mistakes flying it, it really needs to stay at top speed (450km+) to perform well.  Maybe dropping the nose in a tight turn is the way the beast just is, although from the sounds of the replies you guys do not have this problem.

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

Watching SSS "how to La5 part 1" again, yeah I am making mistakes flying it, it really needs to stay at top speed (450km+) to perform well.  Maybe dropping the nose in a tight turn is the way the beast just is, although from the sounds of the replies you guys do not have this problem.

 

If you enter a turn at sufficient speed, there shouldn't be any drop. Just yank the stick back. It's only on sustained turns where your speed drops; you might have to dip your nose a little to pick up some extra speed to avoid stalling.

 

You can see a stall clearly at the 1:38 mark here:

 

Spoiler

 

 

If you enter a climbing turn gently, without pulling the stick back too far, you can do so even at fairly low (near stalling) speed. This is most likely possible because of the wing slats.

[Jaws2002]

I did  a few sorties in LA-5FN right now. The plane is extremely well behaved, as long as you keep your speed up. It doesn't need trimming or too much help to keep the ball centered. The trick is not to try to turn as tight as the BF-109. You can stay a bit faster on a wider circle and catch him after one turn. At the end of the turn you'll still be behind him, but you'll be much faster and will be able to run him down.

 

[Chris65]

Thanks guys.  I will respond without quoting the video link:  I do not get the a/c shake like in the video, so I know I am not stalling out, that is good; thanks for the video link.  Staring at the enemy a/c maybe I am making more circles then I thought I was and I am starting to really think that it is getting to the 400km/hr mark that is dropping me, I will test tonight and find out and reply.  After watching many SSS videos on dog fighting and stuff I try to always keep energy and I thought staying above 400 was doing that, but I see now it still depends on the plane too.

 

Cheers?

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Chris65 said:

Thanks guys.  I will respond without quoting the video link:  I do not get the a/c shake like in the video, so I know I am not stalling out, that is good; thanks for the video link.

 

No problem, good luck!

 

By the way, is there a particular reason you want to fly the La-5 rather than the Yak-9? If the Yak's weaker armament is an issue, there's always the 9T.

[Jaws2002]

Yak-9T is a lot of fun. Load the 37mm with HE ammo and you can harvest a lot of planes.

[Chris65]

Figured it out.  When in a tight turn you need no rudder input, she just goes around nice and level on her own, but in a shallow turn you need a bit of opposite rudder to center the ball.  I was adding in a lot of positive rudder like the Hurricane, thus diving the nose.  I have the logitech rudder peddles on my Amazon wishlist but they are $230Cdn, bit steep for what they do.

 

No reason for the La5 other then it was the first I grabbed.  I have also played a bit with the 190A3 but I want to figure out one aircraft really well instead of just jumping around.  Tried the P39 but that was a disaster, if you read the book P39 Aerocobra the Russian pilot makes the aircraft out to be the baddest thing in the sky, but I don't think so.

 

I did start a career in the La5, did great on my first mission with two 109 kills, then died on my second when I went hunting on my own ignoring my comrades.

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

Figured it out.  When in a tight turn you need no rudder input, she just goes around nice and level on her own, but in a shallow turn you need a bit of opposite rudder to center the ball.  I was adding in a lot of positive rudder like the Hurricane, thus diving the nose. 

 

Ah, that makes sense. Sometimes it's hard to notice things you do reflexively.

 

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

No reason for the La5 other then it was the first I grabbed.  I have also played a bit with the 190A3 but I want to figure out one aircraft really well instead of just jumping around.

 

Yaks fly much more like a Hurricane. Good for novices, and people who just don't like to fight their own plane as much as the enemy's. 

 

La-5 is a solid choice, but definitely trickier to handle than a Yak.

 

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

Tried the P39 but that was a disaster, if you read the book P39 Aerocobra the Russian pilot makes the aircraft out to be the baddest thing in the sky, but I don't think so.

 

The discrepancy is largely due to Sturmovik's engine timer issue. Long story short, you could run many of these engines for a longer period of time at a higher power level in real life, than you can in the sim. The P-39 is kind of a dead slug on anything less than 100% emergency power.

 

I like the overall design of the P-39, tricycle landing gear is also a plus, and the handling when at full power is quite decent.

 

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

I did start a career in the La5, did great on my first mission with two 109 kills, then died on my second when I went hunting on my own ignoring my comrades.

 

Yeah, getting over 'kill fever' is something that'll take a while. 20 years of simming in my case.

 

There are many times when I'm about to do something stupid, like chase a wounded plane into enemy territory to finish him off, and I have to make a conscious effort to pick the sensible choice and return to my mission objective instead. There's also a lot of times during a large dogfight, where you'll learn to break off a chase even if you're in an advantageous position, because you've totally lost track of where and how many enemies are near you.

 

Sometimes you just have to 'reset' the fight and find a vantage point to reassess the situation.

[CountZero]

11 hours ago, Chris65 said:

Figured it out.  When in a tight turn you need no rudder input, she just goes around nice and level on her own, but in a shallow turn you need a bit of opposite rudder to center the ball.  I was adding in a lot of positive rudder like the Hurricane, thus diving the nose.  I have the logitech rudder peddles on my Amazon wishlist but they are $230Cdn, bit steep for what they do.

 

No reason for the La5 other then it was the first I grabbed.  I have also played a bit with the 190A3 but I want to figure out one aircraft really well instead of just jumping around.  Tried the P39 but that was a disaster, if you read the book P39 Aerocobra the Russian pilot makes the aircraft out to be the baddest thing in the sky, but I don't think so.

 

I did start a career in the La5, did great on my first mission with two 109 kills, then died on my second when I went hunting on my own ignoring my comrades.

If you wont allied turn fighter to start with then yak or spit is your choice, both la5 are not good turn fighters for new players to try in this game, its more bnz airplane.

 

Also if you final aim is to play in MP, your waisting time in SP, no mather how long you train vs Ai your not gona be prepared for MP skill gap, when you know how to take of shoot your good to go in MP, you dont even need to know how to land or taxi, SA is also important but you learn that with time. If you join in coms and have someone to drag you with him youll learn faster, if you just practice in SP youll be no better then someone who spend 1 week in MP insted year in SP. If you cant handle of being shoot down many times its gona be bad MP expiriance and better stay in SP, or if you wont historical ww2, also avoid MP, stick to SP then.

Edited September 30, 2022 by CountZero

[Chris65]

SP is fine for learning how to fly the plane.  Also I have read  many forums of guys saying they really dislike MP for various stated reasons, watching numerous MP UT vids I can see that "historical" has nothing to do with MP and is really just an airborne first person shooter game.

 

YAK = Hurricane, that is good to know, thanks.

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

YAK = Hurricane, that is good to know, thanks.

 

Here's an incredibly boring Yak-9 vs Hurricane turn fight:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The AI can turn for days in a Hurricane, especially one with the improved engine.

 

I had to be somewhat disciplined to catch him without stalling out. At any given time I was going about 160 MPH; occasionally dipping the nose to pick up speed.

 

This wouldn't have been possible in an La-5.

 

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm also not using head tracking. Hence the spastic key-controlled camera movements.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

16 hours ago, Chris65 said:

No reason for the La5 other then it was the first I grabbed.  I have also played a bit with the 190A3 but I want to figure out one aircraft really well instead of just jumping around.  Tried the P39 but that was a disaster, if you read the book P39 Aerocobra the Russian pilot makes the aircraft out to be the baddest thing in the sky, but I don't think so.

The La-5 and Fw-190 are both tricky aircraft to fly well, and both are energy fighters. Meaning that you should above all keep your speed high, and preferably turn as little as possible. If this is your first combat flight simulator, I'd recommend the Bf-109 or one of the Yaks instead, or from the Western side the Mustang or Tempest. These tend to be more jacks of all trades, are relatively easy to fly and can do both energy and turn fighting reasonably well. As a result, they're more forgiving if you use the wrong tactics or are slightly off in your flying.

 

My recommendation would be to start with one of those types, until you've grasped the basics of air combat, and then progress to things like the La-5, 190, Spitfire, P-39, Mig, P-47, etc.

 

Of course, if you like the La-5, feel free to discard this advice and just go for it . Also, nothing wrong with SP. Like you, I'm not especially interested in online free-for-all furballs, instead preferring the more historically accurate SP missions.

[Chris65]

I didn't see any strikes, did you clobber him or did he just abandon the fight?

 

The super AI planes is the one reason I am thinking of going MP, at least all the a/c will be 'realistic'.

 

The key viewing is horrible eh, it is why I purchased the TRACKIR5 and made my own IR clip but 95% of the time I use the hat clip that comes with it, I am not a fan of wearing headphones and the hat clip seems to work well enough for me.

 

So here is a question to all who may know:  many of you keep saying "the La5 is a B&Z fighter" yet at low level the La5 can out turn the 109, so why would you keep classifying the La5 as B&Z.

 

***these are not my first fight sims, I have been flying since Rowlands BoB which I still have.  Purchased the first IL2 when it came out but with all the flight sims I own/owned I can honestly say I have only flown the Hurricane and La5 to any serious time, even IL2 '46 with all the a/c it was Hurricane.  I honestly don't really care for the Spitfire or 109.***

Edited September 30, 2022 by Chris65

[AEthelraedUnraed]

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

The super AI planes is the one reason I am thinking of going MP, at least all the a/c will be 'realistic'.

The AI in IL2 uses the exact same flight model as the player does. There are no cheats there, as is the case for some other games. No "super AI planes here"

 

The only thing that might be construed as "unrealistic" is that the AI tends to always perfectly trim the aircraft. Still, a human player with a perfectly trimmed aircraft will have the exact same performance as an AI.

 

1 hour ago, Chris65 said:

So here is a question to all who may know:  many of you keep saying "the La5 is a B&Z fighter" yet at low level the La5 can out turn the 109, so why would you keep classifying the La5 as B&Z.

Are you talking about instantaneous or sustained turn here? Many B&Z fighters have pretty good instantaneous turn rate, meaning that they can turn pretty fast if you pull them up steeply when you have enough speed. However, when their speed drops, their turn rate gets lower until it reaches the max sustained turn rate at a certain speed. Any slower than that, and your turn rate drops dramatically.

 

According to the in-game aircraft info, the 109 (G2) has a better sustained turn than the La-5 (s8), especially at higher altitudes (a whopping 7s difference) but still 1s at sea level:

La-5:
Maximum performance turn at sea level: 23.4 s, at 270 km/h IAS.
Maximum performance turn at 3000 m: 35.3 s, at 270 km/h IAS.

 

Bf-109:
Maximum performance turn at sea level: 22.2 s, at 270 km/h IAS.
Maximum performance turn at 3000 m: 28.3 s, at 270 km/h IAS.

 

The various mid-war Bf-109s have roughly similar turn performance. The La-5FN has almost the same turn rate as the Bf-109 G4, but at a faster speed. Meaning the G4 will be able to turn inside it. So if you're talking about sustained turn rate, then no, the La-5 cannot outturn the 109

 

EDIT: if you compare the La-5 sustained turn rates with those of true turn fighters such as the Yak (9; sea level 17.5s, 3000m 22.5s) or the Spitfire (IXe; sea level 17.8s, 3000m 20.7s), as well as with energy fighters such as the Fw190 (A5; sea level 23.5s, 3000m 35.5s) or P-47 (D22; sea level 27.0s, 3000m 30.0s), it's clear that the La-5 matches more closely with the latter category (nearly identical to the Fw190A5). The 109, Mustang and Tempest, as I said above, all fall somewhere in the middle. They're generally able to outrun, outclimb or outdive the turnfighters while they can outturn the energy fighters.

Edited September 30, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Chris65]

Excellent answer, thank you for that.  I see what you are saying, a quick stick yank versus pulled back holding, makes sense.

 

I thought the AI a/c in IL2 ignored flight characteristics, it sure does sound like it reading ATAG and SAS forums, guys complain all the time and it kind of makes sense when the AI a/c rocket away from you or hold a turn with no blacking out.

 

If not then that is good news.

[oc2209]

4 hours ago, Chris65 said:

I didn't see any strikes, did you clobber him or did he just abandon the fight?

 

The super AI planes is the one reason I am thinking of going MP, at least all the a/c will be 'realistic'.

 

I got lucky and blew his vertical stabilizer off with that brief burst. The AI decided discretion was the better part of valor and bailed.

 

And yes, like AEthelraed said, the AI has no advantages besides being a tireless, fearless Terminator in the sky. Qualitatively, however, a skilled human will always be far superior to the AI, and will have many more tricks up the sleeve. MP's going to have a fair number of pilots who've been practicing multiplayer for years, and they'll be far more brutal than Ace-level AI. Not trying to scare you, just stating facts.

 

4 hours ago, Chris65 said:

So here is a question to all who may know:  many of you keep saying "the La5 is a B&Z fighter" yet at low level the La5 can out turn the 109, so why would you keep classifying the La5 as B&Z.

 

AEthelraed also answered this in more detail than I will, but I'd just like to add: the AI often can't turn a plane as tightly as a human can. A Hurricane in human hands should be able to turn inside a Yak-9, or at least keep it a dead heat where nobody can get the advantage.

 

Likewise, when I'm piloting a 109, I can fairly easily turn inside any Russian AI-operated plane.

 

What it boils down to is that the AI is 'afraid' of riding the edge of a stall, whereas humans aren't, and thus they can push planes to their absolute limits. The AI will only fly within safe limits. The same is generally true for blackout, high-G maneuvers.

 

10 minutes ago, Chris65 said:

I thought the AI a/c in IL2 ignored flight characteristics, it sure does sound like it reading ATAG and SAS forums, guys complain all the time and it kind of makes sense when the AI a/c rocket away from you or hold a turn with no blacking out.

 

Yeah, if people are blacking out versus an AI in a turn, it just means the people are entering the turn wrong. Most likely with too much speed.

 

You will very rarely see the AI black out; not because it's cheating, but because it flies within strict safety limits that humans often ignore. This is both a strength and a weakness of the AI. Once you learn its habits enough, you can fully exploit it.

Edited October 1, 2022 by oc2209

[Chris65]

This has become a very interesting and informative thread, at least for me, thanks.  You all have taught me a lot, especially towards the La5 and the quick roll rate vs sustained turn explains why when I entered into a scissor (very first time ever trying it normally I just bore a doughnut in the sky) the other night with a 110 by the third scissor I was behind him and he died quickly.

[czech693]

In a very steep turn (say 60 degrees bank or more) your controls change function. Your elevator acts as the rudder and the rudder as the elevator.  So, if you started a left turn with left rudder, as the turn steepens and you pull the stick back hard into the turn (as it is now acting as the rudder), you need to reduce the left rudder and might even need right rudder to maintain altitude.

[Chris65]

Well this thread along with Sheriffs Sim Shack videos on energy fighting paid off, went up today in my La5N vs 3x110 and using energy (not following turns but instead zooming off and up) was able to claim all three, although the third was a suicide, what a brilliant explosion, my wife started laughing in the other room hearing me yell "BOOM!"

[CAFulcrum]

The ai always tries to turn in single player.  It isn't as bad as it used to be but they still seem to default to that before trying other things.  In MP you're more likely to make bounces or face energy fighters, so a BnZ plane like the La5 is actually easier to use.  Yak fighters of any type have a better turn rate for turnfighting the ai, they are a little unstable at high angles but light, whereas the La5 really likes to wobble and stall out if you push it.

[Chris65]

Decided to try the La5 today in career mode, medium, dead on first mission twice in a row.  First time a 109 rammed me, second I thought it was a wingman behind me, until he lit me up.  Great fun and makes me envy how these guys online can ID a/c so easily.

 

May have to take the yak for a joy ride.