AI Disengage Problem

[SpellswordSPITP51]

The problem has been tested on 2 different PC's just to confirm that it is not me imagining things. For me, it is a major problem with this sim. Basically in any circumstances, Blitz or the Tobruk DLC, no matter the fuel load, no matter the amount of ammo, no matter the set AI skill, the enemy plane will disengage from a 1 on 1 fight in 5 minutes or less. It then keeps circling around the map and evades my shots, but won't engage again. It basically defeats the whole dueling aspect of the game and makes it a way less enjoyable experience for me. It has been reported on the ATAG forums, confirmed by a few users and nothing has been done with it since. I humbly ask the devs again to look into this problem and do something with it.

[Buzzsaw]

Hello Spellsword

 

The AI will do this when the mission builder has not specified another waypoint or task.  In effect the mission builder has to be very 'hands on' when he builds a mission, he can't just assume the AI will do everything on its own.

 

If you are in a Quick Mission, this also will often happen as these are quite simple missions.

 

AI will also disengage when it runs out of ammo.

 

We will be re-looking at the AI for TF 6.0 and this is one of the behaviours which we hope to find a solution for... which does not require as complex mission building.

[SpellswordSPITP51]

It is not because of the AI running out of ammo, I have spectated the enemy Bf 109 from cockpit to check if it still had ammo when it disengaged. It did. It also doesn't happen because of not specifying another waypoint/task for the AI. It disengaged 5 minutes after the mission had started, with five more "Engage Fighter" waypoints spanned over 23 estimated minutes of flight. I seriously doubt it works in any circumstances. If you could provide a recording or a mission file with the AI dueling with you for more than 6 minutes, I'll forever shut up about this problem. I've spent over 5 hours researching this and not once has the AI fought for more than that. I seriously doubt that a waypoint combination or an FMB magic trick will fix that without an official update.

Edited September 27, 2022 by SpellswordSPITP51

[Josp]

Hi SpellswordSPITP51,

 

I think there may be more reasons why AI disengages. A low amount of fuel or some damage that is not apparent come to my mind for example.

The AI is not perfect, that's true. But not all problems are just AI issues.

 

Josef

[SpellswordSPITP51]

It can't be because of fuel, the fuel tank gets barely used in those 5 minutes. It also isn't the invisible damage, I didn't give myself ammo for some of the tests.

[Dagwoodyt]

51 minutes ago, SpellswordSPITP51 said:

It can't be because of fuel, the fuel tank gets barely used in those 5 minutes. It also isn't the invisible damage, I didn't give myself ammo for some of the tests.

I have used the FMB to investigate all the factors you have described. They will not change this AI behavior. This issue has been discussed before. I expect that the issue has been raised in other forums if you have not yet done a search.

[Josp]

1 hour ago, SpellswordSPITP51 said:

It can't be because of fuel, the fuel tank gets barely used in those 5 minutes. It also isn't the invisible damage, I didn't give myself ammo for some of the tests.

It depends on the initial fuel load in that mission. The aircraft may not have a full tank. And 5 minutes of flying at full power can consume a lot of fuel. If they have a long journey home, it may force AI to disengage to be able to return back.

That's just an idea that came to my mind. I agree it would be good if this was investigated. As well as another strange AI behaviour - that jet-like rolling discussed in other thread here.

 

Josef

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Josp said:

It depends on the initial fuel load in that mission. The aircraft may not have a full tank. And 5 minutes of flying at full power can consume a lot of fuel. If they have a long journey home, it may force AI to disengage to be able to return back.

That's just an idea that came to my mind. I agree it would be good if this was investigated. As well as another strange AI behaviour - that jet-like rolling discussed in other thread here.

 

Josef

You can give the AI 100% fuel load, numerous waypoints and have all waypoints within easy reach of the AI’s landing site. Those factors will not alter the “disengagement” behavior. If you have not observed the behavior though, great?

[Sokol1]

10 hours ago, SpellswordSPITP51 said:

It is not because of the AI running out of ammo, I have spectated the enemy Bf 109 from cockpit to check if it still had ammo when it disengaged. It did. It also doesn't happen because of not specifying another waypoint/task for the AI. It disengaged 5 minutes after the mission had started, with five more "Engage Fighter" waypoints spanned over 23 estimated minutes of flight. I seriously doubt it works in any circumstances. If you could provide a recording or a mission file with the AI dueling with you for more than 6 minutes, I'll forever shut up about this problem. I've spent over 5 hours researching this and not once has the AI fought for more than that. I seriously doubt that a waypoint combination or an FMB magic trick will fix that without an official update.

 

Yes, time ago me and another guy have done the same test, and I notice that when AI disengage all next waypoint is canceled - minus the last, you can see this if enable map icons, the line linking Ai with next waypoint move for the last, skipping ones in between. At time we related this in this forum but... 

 

This bug don't have anything with ammo, fuel, if you assume control of that AI plane -using the command "Take Control of Selected AI Aircraft"; can fire theirs guns and see plenty of fuel. The AI simple enter in "landing mode", ignoring any threat for him.

[SpellswordSPITP51]

13 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

 

Yes, time ago me and another guy have done the same test, and I notice that when AI disengage all next waypoint is canceled - minus the last, you can see this if enable map icons, the line linking Ai with next waypoint move for the last, skipping ones in between. At time we related this in this forum but... 

 

This bug don't have anything with ammo, fuel, if you assume control of that AI plane -using the command "Take Control of Selected AI Aircraft"; can fire theirs guns and see plenty of fuel. The AI simple enter in "landing mode", ignoring any threat for him.

Yep, it circles with around 40% engine power as if it tried to land. Have you managed to find any solutions?

[Dagwoodyt]

I think the bottom line is that no solution exists within the FMB. There is possibility that the disengagement behavior might be addressed in some manner when you buy TF 6.0, though no commitment ATM and TF 6.0 has yet to be officially announced.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

4 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

might be addressed in some manner when you buy TF 6.0

 

 

There's no need to purchase the add-on for the upgrade, the basic game will be upgraded up to 6.0 regardless.

 

[Mysticpuma]

14 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I think the bottom line is that no solution exists within the FMB. There is possibility that the disengagement behavior might be addressed in some manner when you buy TF 6.0, though no commitment ATM and TF 6.0 has yet to be officially announced.

 

Buzzsaw did say the Ai was getting an overhaul including the Radio Commands. The coder from IL2:1946 was brought on board to help with this. 

There was a dedicated forum to Ai testing created in April 2018 but I have no idea if it is still being used or developed. They were indeed looking at improving the Ai but if this issue isn't on their list for Ai fixes it really needs to be considered as a priority for Single Player gaming which is just as important as Multiplayer if not more important with a larger player base. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Mysticpuma

[Dagwoodyt]

The takeaways are that you cannot alter the disengagement behavior on your own and that no one has been able to demonstrate a solution via the FMB    ?

[No.54_Reddog]

19 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

There's no need to purchase the add-on for the upgrade, the basic game will be upgraded up to 6.0 regardless.

 

 

Since TF6 has not been announced, that's utter speculation. It's fair to say that those with Blitz only saw improvements as a result of TF5 being released. There are no guarantees that state of affairs will be repeated. There's none to say it won't either at this stage, to comment at all is just speculation.

 

As for the AI problems, they're not a result of the mission maker not understanding the FMB (although who could blame them since the documentation on it is so thin on the ground). The AI locking onto the first enemy/player they see and ignoring all others is also a massive problem I'd hope to see addressed in any forthcoming AI work. However I just don't see it happening any time soon but I hope I'm wrong.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

At release of TF6.0, a possessor of Blitz alone will see his game upgraded up to version 6.0 either he purchases the add-on or not.

[Buzzsaw]

3 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

At release of TF6.0, a possessor of Blitz alone will see his game upgraded up to version 6.0 either he purchases the add-on or not.

With all due respect, your answer could be confusing and is not really accurate.

 

With the release of the Visual Update, owners of BLITZ only, will still see the Visual Update improvements added to BLITZ as well as VR capability.

 

With the release of TF 6.0, owners of BLITZ only, will see any game engine improvements, (such as AI behaviour) added to BLITZ.  However, none of the new objects/maps/campaigns/etc. will be added to BLITZ.  All the new elements added for TF 6.0 would only be available to TF 6.0 owners.  (in the same way as only TOBRUK owners receive the new TOBRUK map and all the TOBRUK objects/campaigns/etc.

[No.54_Reddog]

Thanks for the clarification and correction Buzzsaw, I didn't expect the situation to change for TFS6.0 but it's great you confirm it won't. Does this mean that AI behaviour is intended to be included in the TFS 6.0 release or was it intended only as an example of functionality that could be included in such a release?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

30 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

With the release of TF 6.0, owners of BLITZ only, will see any game engine improvements, (such as AI behaviour) added to BLITZ.  However, none of the new objects/maps/campaigns/etc. will be added to BLITZ.  All the new elements added for TF 6.0 would only be available to TF 6.0 owners.  (in the same way as only TOBRUK owners receive the new TOBRUK map and all the TOBRUK objects/campaigns/etc.

 

 

This is obvious! but you're right, Buzzsaw, it is always best to leave one's own statements as clear as possible.

[Buzzsaw]

23 hours ago, No.54_Reddog said:

Thanks for the clarification and correction Buzzsaw, I didn't expect the situation to change for TFS6.0 but it's great you confirm it won't. Does this mean that AI behaviour is intended to be included in the TFS 6.0 release or was it intended only as an example of functionality that could be included in such a release?

We are planning to revise a number of elements of AI behaviour for TF 6.0.

 

These include improving the ability of the player to give commands to the AI who are under his control.  (when he is Flight or Squadron Leader)  So for example, attack, landing, reform, return to base, etc.

 

Also we want to improve the general realism of the AI behaviour in combat.  Some of these changes were done for TF 5.0, but not all that were required.