New Pico Neo4 standalone device: Pancake lenses, 2160x2160 per eye and 429€.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

No, the issue isn't behind my desk. The virtual desktop dev ggodin has already confirmed there's a problem causing stutters, and already has a beta out for the quest to address this issue. The beta isn't available for the Pico yet, because Pico doesn't allow betas for whatever reason. Need to be blunt, so you get encouraged not to falsely claim everything is fine, and to blame the user, when there's already a patch on the way to address what you falsely claim doesn't exist. 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

On 11/20/2022 at 1:08 AM, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

 

Haven't heard of that and haven't got a problem. In 99% of all cases the problem is behind the desk. If you're in the 1% of that not being the case, congratulations! 

[simfan2015]

I have in my professional career been involved in testing monitoring software products. Those softwares often caused severe performance problems while monitoring various system resources. I don't know about fpsVR in particular, but in general those kinds of softwares are not always meant to be used at all times. I thought to buy fpsvr to a. o. monitor cpu and memory and for that purpose I believe it is still valuable, even if it might cause stutters or whatever other side-effect. 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Yeah, FPSVR isn't something I run at all times. I do recommend buying it because it will show GPU and CPU frame time separately, and you can easily identify if low frame rates are due to your graphics being set too high, or the mission/server is too complex for your CPU to handle well.

[Youtch]

6 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Yeah, FPSVR isn't something I run at all times. I do recommend buying it because it will show GPU and CPU frame time separately, and you can easily identify if low frame rates are due to your graphics being set too high, or the mission/server is too complex for your CPU to handle well.

OpenXR toolkit does not do the same thing?

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

It does, but openXR toolkit doesn't work while using steamVR. Pico 4 can't use open composite through virtual desktop yet, so no openXR toolkit.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

It does, but openXR toolkit doesn't work while using steamVR. Pico 4 can't use open composite through virtual desktop yet, so no openXR toolkit.

https://github.com/mbucchia/OpenXR-Toolkit/issues/425

 

Maybe I've misunderstood what's the problem, but this seems to disagree with you?

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

thanks for the link Fireball - previously when I had G2 my opencomposite was sytem wide installation, it seems that on my computer Pico4 works with it only if I directly exchange it for il2 one in bin/game folder 

 

with setting opencomposite to steamVR default runtime and il2 in it also to steamVR default (SteamVR is beta 1.25.1), my il2 install works when exchanging openvr_api.dll with opencomposite one and setting latest openXR Toolkit to use it then  

 

which is wonderful news for non aware pico4 owners (like myself!!!)

 

https://gitlab.com/znixian/OpenOVR/-/tree/openxr#per-game-installation

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by 102nd-YU-cmirko
clarity and detail

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

That's a good find. I was running it system wide. I'll have to play with it later. That plus the upcoming VD update will hopefully fix a lot of the issues I have with my Pico. 

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

7 hours ago, 102nd-YU-cmirko said:

thanks for the link Fireball - previously when I had G2 my opencomposite was sytem wide installation, it seems that on my computer Pico4 works with it only if I directly exchange it for il2 one in bin/game folder 

 

with setting opencomposite to steamVR default runtime and il2 in it also to steamVR default (SteamVR is beta 1.25.1), my il2 install works when exchanging openvr_api.dll with opencomposite one and setting latest openXR Toolkit to use it then  

 

which is wonderful news for non aware pico4 owners (like myself!!!)

 

https://gitlab.com/znixian/OpenOVR/-/tree/openxr#per-game-installation

 

 

 

Huh, wow, you dove way further into this than I ever did,

I only knew that both VD and OpenXR Toolkit worked with Pico 4 independently from each other,

but I had thought that OpenComposit didn't work with VD, thus making them incompatible with each other.

 

So... uhm... nice ?

 

I mean, totally knew it would work!

Edited December 8, 2022 by So_ein_Feuerball

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

8 hours ago, 102nd-YU-cmirko said:

with setting opencomposite to steamVR default runtime and il2 in it also to steamVR default (SteamVR is beta 1.25.1), my il2 install works when exchanging openvr_api.dll with opencomposite one and setting latest openXR Toolkit to use it then  

 

which is wonderful news for non aware pico4 owners (like myself!!!)

 

https://gitlab.com/znixian/OpenOVR/-/tree/openxr#per-game-installation

 

 

sth I only now noticed, so you are still running the game on the steamVR runtime.

Is there any noticeable performance difference between running it with VD only or with VD + OC+ OXRTK?

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

yes, as far as I understand it, I run steamvr through open composite dll calls - but this allows the usage of all toolkit features  (it's also nice when you see SteamVR home on start of game and then it exits :))

 

I mean, performance is virtually the same for me, but I can use the camera shaking reduction and CAS which looks very nice for me personally (and better than VD 1.24.1 sharpening) 

 

 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

I tried it, and it works just like you said. Even better is that the XRNS version of neck saver works with your method, so we don't have to revert to the old VRNS version.

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

latest VD and VD streamer update went through, no time to test at the moment ^^

 

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

really amazing update - I gained 10fps in average on exact setup as before VD update

 

 

[simfan2015]

I also witness a considerably Increase in fps after upgrade to VD 1.25. 7! (1.25.6 Android App). 

This was a valid argument why VD wireless connection was to be avoided vs DP. But No more it seems!? 

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

18 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

I also witness a considerably Increase in fps after upgrade to VD 1.25. 7! (1.25.6 Android App). 

This was a valid argument why VD wireless connection was to be avoided vs DP. But No more it seems!? 

I think we still ought to wait for performance testing in SYN_Vander BENCHMARK v6 with the same CPU/RAM/GPU combo between both tht ePico and the G2 before we can actually definitively state sth like this.

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by So_ein_Feuerball

[simfan2015]

4 hours ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

we still ought to wait for performance testing in SYN_Vander BENCHMARK v6 with the same CPU/RAM/GPU combo between both tht ePico and the G2 before we can actually definitively state sth like this.

You are right !

My 'observation' regarding FPS in a.o. IL-2 GB is unscientific, but I have confidence I got at least a few extra FPS.

It will depend for sure because AFAIK the improvement is -reportedly- achieved thru better CPU parallelisation.

If the CPU/all cores/threads was already like 100% occupied (MSFS???) then this may vary and change these positive results (?).

Still, I am really looking forward to more objective (and positive?) VD 1.25.6/7 measurement results. 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

I was going to do a G2 vs Pico performance comparison but I can't ATM, because there's something weird going on that affects a small amount of people in 1.25.6 that always locks me 18 FPS lower then it should. So 90 Hz locks me at 72 FPS and 72 HZ locks me at 54 FPS. It wasn't happening in older updates. In the small amount of time I tested, I did notice the stutters improved greatly, but are still there, but with a frequency I could live with.

On 12/9/2022 at 1:34 PM, simfan2015 said:

I also witness a considerably Increase in fps after upgrade to VD 1.25. 7! (1.25.6 Android App). 

This was a valid argument why VD wireless connection was to be avoided vs DP. But No more it seems!? 

Unless the technology changes, it's always going to be personal preference really. Even if the performance is 100% equal, at equal settings and FPS uncompressed will always look better, as the compression process reduces image quality and adds artifacts. It also adds latency, but some people really really hate cables and will see the trade off being worth it. Still, best option though is if companies aren't trying to lock people into their store, and pay the damn 10$ to add a display port. Then people can do both depending on the game.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

Well, for me the difference in visibility of far off contacts is the important bit. 

If it is negligible, I'm leaning towards the Pico 4.

 

I'd be upgrading from the Rift-S, so it would be an improvement in both cases.

The ergonomics, the pancake lenses and the lower price are what makes me lean towards the Pico currently,

but I don't want to commit to it before I have a clearer picture.   

[simfan2015]

20 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

pay the damn 10$ to add a display port. Then people can do both depending on the game.

Indeed, but I am pretty sure it is less about those 10$ and mostly about the PICO store. The only App I bought (and most probably will ever buy) 

 from the PICO store is Virtual Desktop from ggodin.

If it is true that PICOXR is losing +100$ on every headset that they wish to make up for by (mostly) PICO store games it is clear

 they would never, intentionally, sell that great PICO 4 headset to me ... nor you AFAIK ?

[HR_Zunzun]

4 hours ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Well, for me the difference in visibility of far off contacts is the important bit. 

If it is negligible, I'm leaning towards the Pico 4.

 

I'd be upgrading from the Rift-S, so it would be an improvement in both cases.

The ergonomics, the pancake lenses and the lower price are what makes me lean towards the Pico currently,

but I don't want to commit to it before I have a clearer picture.   

That is what leaned me to the Pico 4 too. In my case, I was coming from a Lenovo explorer.

My experience so far is great. The image quality is a huge step but can´t compare to the G2 to appreciate the quality lost with the lack of DP. The lenses are amazingin terms of clarity. The improvement in the Fov is not big thought (I think my Lenovo were similar).

I am not perceiving stuttering. I am not looking for it and don´t care if it is there and I am missing it. I am getting fps around 70. I haven´t pushed for the maximum quality. I need to play a bit more with it. But in my case I am not pushing for the perfect image. I do not care.

It is working nice with VD and wifi. I will get a cable because the limited battery is the only problem I see with them. 2h is clearly not enough for my regular flying sesions.

 

My summary is that if you are looking for "affordable" VR helmet with good image quality and you are not seeking the ultimate image quality then the Pico 4 are definitively a very good option until something better arrives.

 

PD: I didn´t care about other VR games but the lack of cable for "free" movement is a blast. My family and me had a terrorific evening playing Phasmofobia.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

1 hour ago, simfan2015 said:

Indeed, but I am pretty sure it is less about those 10$ and mostly about the PICO store. The only App I bought (and most probably will ever buy) 

 from the PICO store is Virtual Desktop from ggodin.

If it is true that PICOXR is losing +100$ on every headset that they wish to make up for by (mostly) PICO store games it is clear

 they would never, intentionally, sell that great PICO 4 headset to me ... nor you AFAIK ?

They could simply sell us a "Pico 4 Link" with a DP connection for 530€, I'd be happy to pay the extra.

QC issues aside, I'm pretty sure the lack of DP port is what holds Pico 4 sales back significantly.

It would otherwise be too much of a perfect combination of affordability and performance to not sell out instantly.

Edited December 11, 2022 by So_ein_Feuerball

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

5 hours ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Well, for me the difference in visibility of far off contacts is the important bit. 

If it is negligible, I'm leaning towards the Pico 4.

I haven't tested spotting distance, but IDing is definitely worse than the G2 (even at equal settings) due to the extra jaggedness from compression. When only considering IL-2 I'd have to recommend the G2 on sale over the Pico even when the bugs are ironed out, because IL-2 is a special case game. In most games you aren't trying to ID a black dot from 10 kms away, so the picture isn't so important, but in IL-2 it's hard to recommend the Pico because of it's worse ID ability. The G2 is 2 years old now though, and is showing it's age vs pancake lenses. If you can tolerate your Rift a little longer you may also just want to wait for an affordable headset with a display port/pancake lenses.

2 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

Indeed, but I am pretty sure it is less about those 10$ and mostly about the PICO store. The only App I bought (and most probably will ever buy) 

 from the PICO store is Virtual Desktop from ggodin.

If it is true that PICOXR is losing +100$ on every headset that they wish to make up for by (mostly) PICO store games it is clear

 they would never, intentionally, sell that great PICO 4 headset to me ... nor you AFAIK ?

I do like standing games as well, so I would buy some non-seated games from them. The sad part is that as of now their store is garbage. Most of their games are ported from their earlier libraries from the earlier weaker Picos so they're not using the snapdragon to it's potential and all have much worse graphics then you'd get on Q2 standalone. The games are often not updated to there latest version, so they're missing content sometimes as well. So they plan to make all their money off a store with inferior outdated games? Should have just added a more expensive DP version.

[dburne]

Yes they missed the boat on not having a display port version. They are following Meta's poor direction thinking that this all in one headset is the way to go. That will be Meta's downfall on the VR Hardware side.

Edited December 11, 2022 by dburne

[simfan2015]

A Display Port is not going to make any difference I guess... PC VR is still and will remain a niche and is getting more and more irrelevant because

few AAA titles support PC VR. 

I don't know what percentage of Q2 / pico 4 VR users ever play pc connected, but it may be far too low. 

Still I also hope the Pico 5 will sport that DP port, but I sure won't hold my breath. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by simfan2015

[chiliwili69]

15 hours ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

They could simply sell us a "Pico 4 Link" with a DP connection for 530€, I'd be happy to pay the extra.

QC issues aside, I'm pretty sure the lack of DP port is what holds Pico 4 sales back significantly.

It would otherwise be too much of a perfect combination of affordability and performance to not sell out instantly

 

It might be seen weird that Pico didn´t provide a DP connection. A "Pico 4 Link" would be just a perfect device.

 

The reason behind they didn´t make that is that the business is in the software. Meta and Bytedance want users to buy in their stores, not in Steam or other PCVR game stores. So they go to the standalone route.

But the most weird thing is that they still provide a compressed method to play PCVR, so the software money will go in anycase to Steam or other PCVR game stores.

So why they did´t provide an optional DP cable connection??? (so no battery and no compression is needed)

Perhaps I am missing something.

[simfan2015]

Pico 5.3.0 beta release : new wired connection protocol for streaming !

maybe it will become almost as good as Meta Link ? ...

 

I wonder what is meant by new wired protocol. Would it be hevc instead of h. 264??? 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/PicoXR/comments/zg2l0b/pico_530_beta_release/

Pico 5.3.0 beta release note:

...

1. Added the brightness adaptive adjustment function, which can be turned on in the settings, which will automatically adjust the brightness with the use process, optimize the power consumption performance and improve the use time;

2. Optimized the color perspective algorithm to reduce the degree of distortion and distortion;

3. Optimized the display effect of status prompts in screen casting;

4. Optimized system performance and stability;

5. 6. Updated the new wired connection protocol for streaming, please use it with the latest version of PC streaming software.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by simfan2015

[simfan2015]

VR FligtSimGuy : PICO 4 is the best headset of them all ... if you have a 4090 :

 

PICO 4 PU Leather Face Cover

https://www.amvrshop.com/products/pico-4-pu-leather-face-cover

 

 

[two-five]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:24 PM, simfan2015 said:

Pico 5.3.0 beta release : new wired connection protocol for streaming !

maybe it will become almost as good as Meta Link ? ...

 

I wonder what is meant by new wired protocol. Would it be hevc instead of h. 264??? 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/PicoXR/comments/zg2l0b/pico_530_beta_release/

Pico 5.3.0 beta release note:

...

1. Added the brightness adaptive adjustment function, which can be turned on in the settings, which will automatically adjust the brightness with the use process, optimize the power consumption performance and improve the use time;

2. Optimized the color perspective algorithm to reduce the degree of distortion and distortion;

3. Optimized the display effect of status prompts in screen casting;

4. Optimized system performance and stability;

5. 6. Updated the new wired connection protocol for streaming, please use it with the latest version of PC streaming software.

 

So they are in the process of updating the streaming assistant, there have been some improvements to the WiFi performance and the pc app has new features like the ability to select the encoder and bitrate regardless of profile selected, along with an ultra preset which will give a bump in resolution.

 

So the next OS release will have some updates to how streaming is handled over USB and hopefully some improvements to WiFi also.

 

But mainly what I'd like to see is some improvements to the tracking issues that remain which are mostly likely the cause of the stutter we're experiencing. That's why it's most noticeable when you're in close proximity to another aircraft that is passing or moving across your line of site. Which makes sense because these are the instances where your head rotates the most highlighting the issue.

 

Really tracking is the hardest part of VR so it might take a while before its resolved but it's good to see that they're being somewhat consistent on the update front. And that they aren't ignoring the PCVR side of things either. ?

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

 Beta version 1.25.9 - Release Notes

 

You will also need to download the Beta Streamer from here: https://download.vrdesktop.net/files/beta/VirtualDesktop.Streamer.Setup.exe
Pico users can install the Beta Streamer, it is compatible with 1.25.7

• Fixed Streamer being stuck after restarting your headset
• Fixed issues resuming a VR session
• Fixed framerate being slightly below the target framerate on some systems
• Fixed rare encoder hang on some systems

 

 

latest beta fixed an issue of resuming a VR session (on my computer at least)
 

[Blitzen]

I just got mine on Friday, and have run into a few glitches connecting with my Pc & Steam, which puts the Pico app in my Steam Library in order to use it with this and othe rSteam games.. I found that the default connector exe. kept giving me the massages that I needed to update the exe( I had,) and wouldn't go further . I went to Steam Pico forum and found that PicoUK had a connector download that did work and put the app in the library ( I have to say for me this process was frustrating esp. since the support line leads to a site in the Netherlands that is closed on weekends- they did get back to me today & I need to respond later today..)Once I had this app I was able to play with the Pico headset & I have to say it is pretty terrific doing so without the long cable of the ReverbG2.I really like it,BUT it does come with some problems. Battery life is one ( I did buy a B)BVR M2 Pro+ headband with battery , but...sigh ....it doesn't seem to fit and I can't get stock headband off...) and there seems to be some interface problem with my old MS FFB stick that has disabled the stick function ( either that or it has finally broken down after years of work?)

  With me , it's a work in progress tht I really do want to have working with GB and CloD , because it is a nice step forwards to better VR play.It is light and comfortable and realtively easy to install( except for the interface between it and the PC, that is...)

[Blitzen]

I just got mine on Friday, and have run into a few glitches connecting with my Pc & Steam, which puts the Pico app in my Steam Library in order to use it with this and other Steam  games.. I found that the default wireless connector exe. kept giving me the massages that I needed to update the exe( I had,) and wouldn't go further . I went to Steam Pico forum and found that PicoUK had a connector download that did work and put the app in the library ( I have to say for me this process was frustrating esp. since the support line leads to a site in the Netherlands that is closed on weekends- they did get back to me today & I need to respond later today..)Once I had this app I was able to play with the Pico headset & I have to say it is pretty terrific doing so without the long cable of the ReverbG2.I really like it,BUT it does come with some problems. Battery life is one ( I did buy a B)BVR M2 Pro+ headband with battery , but...sigh ....it doesn't seem to fit and I can't get stock headband off...) and there seems to be some interface problem with my old MS FFB stick that has disabled the stick function ( either that or it has finally broken down after years of work?)

  With me , it's a work in progress that I really do want to have working with GB and CloD , because it is a nice step forwards to better VR play.It is light and comfortable and realtively easy to install( except for the interface between it and the PC, that is...)

Oh finally if I want to replace the headstrap with ,say, some version of the BOBOVR handstamp the rechargeable battery I have two questions :  how do I get the stock one off and which new headstrap do i but to replace it with( and hopefully it comes with ear phones?)

[simfan2015]

PICO version of Virtual Desktop 1.25.10 is ... RELEASED (bot PICO part as well as the PC Streamer utility) !

Both in the PICO store as well as the Windows VD streamer utility for PC/laptop.

IL-2 GB is no problem in whatever VD version (up and till 1.25.10).

However, If you try to run DCS then do not forget to select the 'Boost' option in ggodin's VD v 1.25.10 Streamer or ,,, DCS may hang in the PICO 4 (the VD Android App may hang). 

However, PICO XR firmware version 5.30 is still in BETA. 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by simfan2015

[Blitzen]

1 hour ago, simfan2015 said:

PICO version of Virtual Desktop 1.25.10 is ... RELEASED (bot PICO part as well as the PC Streamer utility) !

Both in the PICO store as well as the Windows VD streamer utility for PC/laptop.

IL-2 GB is no problem in whatever VD version (up and till 1.25.10).

However, If you try to run DCS then do not forget to select the 'Boost' option in ggodin's VD v 1.25.10 Streamer or ,,, DCS may hang in the PICO 4 (the VD Android App may hang). 

However, PICO XR firmware version 5.30 is still in BETA. 

 

Would you give the link?  Thanks!

[simfan2015]

Discord Channel "Virtual Desktop" : 

https://discord.com/channels/564087419918483486/592909523295928340?fingerprint=564764400763011072&attemptId=efa13925-3bc0-4049-8b02-476b313c11a2

 

https://www.vrdesktop.net/

1.25.10 for Desktop

 

 

[Blitzen]

 

PS _ I think the hand controllers are having a negative effect on my MS FFB joystick.Does anyone know how to disable/enable them?

Edited December 21, 2022 by Blitzen

[Blitzen]

Can the stock headstrap be replaced with ( as suggested ) something like the BOBOVR M2 Pro+ that offers extended battery life? If so how? I can't  figure out how to remove the stock one and understand how the BOBO VR would fit?

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

no clue about headstrap replacement - but this will give you some good info..., if you are using VD, try experimenting with Gamepad options under INPUT settings 

 

 

[Blitzen]

I have a wireless connect with my router which is in another room upstairs.Could this be the reason I am having such a difficult time connecting & staying connected to Steam AND explain clunky game play when I do connect ? I get some evident SDE, low  FPS , freezes & a weird wavy effect around the edge of view. I really like the new device , but getting steady ,quality gameplay in Gb and CloD is seemingly ipossible.

Also I've had no luck finding English game support to download Pico Desktop.

I might just have to return the headset and go back to Reverb G2 until the bugs are worked out.?