New Pico Neo4 standalone device: Pancake lenses, 2160x2160 per eye and 429€.

[Alonzo]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:10 PM, simfan2015 said:

Of course a faster cpu makes a difference... But only if the cpu is the bottleneck and in most games the GPU can't keep up.

I referred to the 12th vs 13 th gen cpu's, not in general. Of course if you Replace a Pentium with the 13900k it will most probably be a huge difference. 

I referred to a use case I saw about just those 2 particular Intel processors in certain games. 

BTW I have never read about a 1 generational cpu upgrade getting us double framerates in games, but with GPU upgrade this is not Impossible.

 

IL2 has very specific requirements for VR. Have you read the entire SYN_Vander benchmarking thread, and looked at the spreadsheet?

 

There's no use coming on here and repeating stuff about other games, or generalities like "well, if the CPU is a bottleneck...." You also need to deeply understand the difference between hitting the HMD framerate cap (90hz, 80hz, 72hz) vs being stuck in half-framerate interpolation mode (45 fps, etc). Average frame rates don't matter in VR, it's the 1% (or even 0.1%) lows you really care about.

 

Finally in VR, there's a big difference between single player, where it doesn't really matter what performance you get as long as it's not nausea inducing, and multiplayer, where hitting 90 fps at all times is actually important. And the game, in multiplayer, performs significantly differently than in single player.

 

It's nice that you're trying to help people out, but suggesting a GPU upgrade to someone who has an AMD 3600 CPU is just silly. For IL2, for VR, for multiplayer, you want the fastest CPU you can get, which is 5800X3D / 13700K / better, plus fast RAM. Then get an NVidia GPU and tweak graphics settings to match GPU to headset.

[simfan2015]

1 hour ago, Alonzo said:

You also need to deeply understand

You don't know anything about me.

OTOH I know everything about "keyboard-warriors" ... like you.

[Alonzo]

I'm just trying to help fix some of the misinformation that has been posted in this thread, not trying to pick a fight. As for my credentials, I've been flying IL2 in VR since 2018 and have owned four different VR headsets over the course of that time. And I do a few things in the IL2 community, although those are unrelated to VR.

 

If anyone wants hardware advice, I suggest you check the SVN_Vander benchmarking thread for CPU/GPU benchmark data.

[chiliwili69]

On 11/5/2022 at 10:28 AM, firdimigdi said:

It jumped from kickstarter enthusiast tinkering to mass production without undergoing standardization

Most of technological breakthroughs has followed a similar path, from the wheel to internet, including electricity, planes, cars, videotapes, computers, smartphones, etc.

[simfan2015]

48 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

not trying to pick a fight.

That never was my intention either.

Believe it or not but my initial argument was not, or so I thought, particularly and solely IL-2 related.

Indeed, IL-2 is not "any game", which is why we all love it.

 

FWIW I do read a lot here at the forum and I also do believe that all you wrote is accurate.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by simfan2015

[chiliwili69]

On 11/4/2022 at 12:40 PM, 102nd-YU-cmirko said:

VR Graphics Quality
Pico 4
Potato: 1488x1488
Low: 1776x1776
Medium: 2064x2064
High: 2544x2544
Ultra: 2736x2736
Godlike: 3120x3120

 

quote on a question what happens if you choose medium picture quality in VD 

"3NIGMA: 3120x3120 is encoded at 2060x2060 and transmitted at that"

 

I now understand how it is working, I have been using Ultra and Godlike and I realized that the values declared by SteamVR for 100%SS were different. This is similar to how the Aero works. You have several resolution modes that change the internal supersampling applied for the 100%SS in SteamVR.

 

These are the values for Ultra and Godlike:

 

The Godlike mode is almost extacly like the G2.

 

I suposse that using the Ultra mode with 130%SS will be equivalent to using the Godlike mode with 100%SS. I need to ask this to ggodin.

 

 

[Youtch]

Is there any review yet of Pico4 with Il2 compared to G2?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

3 hours ago, Youtch said:

Is there any review yet of Pico4 with Il2 compared to G2?

Still didn't get to write one. 

 

-> I'm selling a G2.

[Picchio]

Just now, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Still didn't get to write one. 

 

-> I'm selling a G2.

 

GASP! You! I can't believe that!

Please do write down that review as soon as you can!

[chiliwili69]

Guys, today I have been about two hours (the battery run) trying almost every possible settings of the Pico4, VD and IL-2.  And nothing. Those subtle sttuters of the landscape remains there.

 

In IL-2 I have tried to reduce to the minimum the shadows, landscape detail, horizon draw distante, grass, clouds, etc just to don´t load the CPU or GPU.

 

On the VD options I went from Godlike, to Ultra, to High and even Medium. Always with 100%SteamVR.

 

As Ggodin tip me I uninstall fpsVR and set the Streaming options to default, this also didn´t solve that.

 

I think it is very easy to reproduce my issue. Just go to Kuban summer map in Novorosysk and just fly around the mountains, the landscape view suffer subtle sttuters, perhaps not noticeable for everyone, but they are not present in the Index.

 

The overlay of VD at Ultra was showing solid 72fps with 13ms Game, 7ms encoding, 5ms network and 15ms decoding. And about 45ms total.

With High settings and solid 72fos with 11ms game, 6ms encoding, 4 network and 14ms decoding. And about 43 total.

 

For any Pico4 owner, do you see that stutters?

 

BTW, another weird issue is that the controllers dries the batteries in 1 day! I thought they auto switch off. Now I always remove the batteries of the controllers to keep out of running out.

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

9 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

I think it is very easy to reproduce my issue. Just go to Kuban summer map in Novorosysk and just fly around the mountains, the landscape view suffer subtle sttuters, perhaps not noticeable for everyone, but they are not present in the Index.

 

The overlay of VD at Ultra was showing solid 72fps with 13ms Game, 7ms encoding, 5ms network and 15ms decoding. And about 45ms total.

With High settings and solid 72fos with 11ms game, 6ms encoding, 4 network and 14ms decoding. And about 43 total.

 

For any Pico4 owner, do you see that stutters?

 

BTW, another weird issue is that the controllers dries the batteries in 1 day! I thought they auto switch off. Now I always remove the batteries of the controllers to keep out of running out.

 

 

will test this scenario later today - we have about same latency in VD overlay - it varies from 40 to 70 ms for me depending on fps of the moment (game and encoding usually)

 

I'm using my rechargeable batteries in controllers, I still haven't had this bug you mentioned ?‍♂️

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

from VD discord - this seems like a good DIY solution to keep the Pico4 indefinitely charged and without any wireless issues

 

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

3 hours ago, 102nd-YU-cmirko said:

will test this scenario later today - we have about same latency in VD overlay - it varies from 40 to 70 ms for me depending on fps of the moment (game and encoding usually)

 

I've tested this on my online settings, as a simple Spit9 vs Ju52 spawn, I used OCAT to see difference between Godlike (lol name indeed) and Ultra streaming resolutions in first 60 secs. 

 

 

 

File	Application Name	Compositor	Date and Time	Average FPS (Application)	Average frame time (ms) (Application)	95th-percentile frame time (ms) (Application)	99th-percentile frame time (ms) (Application)	99.9th-percentile frame time (ms) (Application)
OCAT-Il-2.exe-2022-11-08T130833.csv GODLIKE STREAMING	Il-2.exe	DWM	20221108-130833	55.2	18.1	19.4	19.9	20.4
OCAT-Il-2.exe-2022-11-08T131929.csv ULTRA STREAMING	Il-2.exe	DWM	20221108-131929	71.6	14	16.9	18.9	26.2

 

it's slightly strange how I can easily play "godlike streaming" on Finish server (didn't yet run into Kuban though since I have Pico)  I never drop under 65fps once in air, but offline this map produces lower results after air spawning.
 

When I use Godlike streaming quality, I feel that the game has an issue of some sort when looking north over the city (combo of geometry and forest) - I do have a subtle stutter down low on the forest north of the city in godlike streaming resolution - on my third screenshot, bigger forest north of the city , over the tip of left wing, is producing lowest results and when I zoom into it, I can perceive small stutters of sort.

 

When I set the ULTRA setting as streaming quality - I have a perfectly fluid game so to say and no perception of any stuttering at all.

 

 

 

 

edit: impression description

Edited November 8, 2022 by 102nd-YU-cmirko

[chiliwili69]

Well guys, today I have decided to return my Pico4.

 

Probably putting some more time I could know what is causing the sttuters and eventually solve it. But, since IL-2 is my only game, I prefer to keep going with my current Index for now.

 

It is absolutely amazing the number of options and items you have to know and set up to make it work:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/piconeo/comments/y821q4/pico_4_virtual_desktop_settings/

https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/yhzk4j/my_virtual_desktop_pcvr_settings_guide_pico_4/

https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/ybtbfg/pico_4_users_do_not_stream_with_virtual_desktop/

 

In addition to that I have to deal with a number of extra things:

 

- Battery charging or using a cable

- Using controllers and their batteries just to only enter in the Pico mode and apps, (with Index I don´t need controllers)

- Take care of my own audio option, be careful, large Hifi headphones touch the pico bands.

- Have to do my own custom facial DIY since the original one doesnt fit my face

- buying VD (it is amazing that a 3rd party app run better than the Pico Streamer) and an extra dedicated fully configured router between my current router and my PC

 

All these wifi complexities only because a company (Bytedance) decided (like Meta) to go for Standalone and cut the DP cable and try to get customer to their store. That choice is non-sense since afterall people will find ways to play PCVR in those standalone headsets (VD or tools provided by Meta or Pico).

 

The resolution and lenses are better with the Pico, pancake lenses is the way to go for future VR devices. Lenses and more resolution is the only thing I would change in my current Index. The simplicity of the Index is what I like.

 

I don´t regret having ordered the Pico4. I know them now. I tested myself enough and I know are not for me. Despite of all other videos and reviews out there.

 

Anyhow the Pico4 is an esceptional VR device, and at that price is going to have a good market share, and the software will improve over time.

If you doubt about grabbing it to upgrade your current device (Rift, Vive, VivePro, O+, old Pimaxes, Rift-S, G1, G2, Index...), just grabb it and decide yourself. VR is very very personal.

 

The only thing I ask to future devices is to have a DP cable!!

[simfan2015]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

I have decided to return my Pico4

I believe that is a very good summary of why people might prefer .. other headsets above the PICO.

The reason I bought this headset was its great value proposition being a semi-[PICO]-store-funded HMD that I ... could use for PC/SteamVR.  

But, indeed, the added 'standalone' complexity makes it almost a no-go for SteamVR-only-use !

Looking forward to reading about your next choice of HMD ... the Valve 2 maybe ?? 

I believe I will nevertheless stick with the PICO 4 for the time being because I am also using quite a bit non-VR content and this means a VR headset is only one of my tools to enjoy sims and games.

Edited November 8, 2022 by simfan2015

[dburne]

Makes me wonder what companies like Pico do with these headsets that get used for some time before the user decides just not for them and sends back for a full refund as allowed in some countries. Do they turn around and sell them as new units again?

Edited November 9, 2022 by dburne

[BOO]

8 hours ago, dburne said:

Makes me wonder what companies like Pico do with these headsets that get used for some time before the user decides just not for them and sends back for a full refund as allowed in some countries. Do they turn around and sell them as new units again?

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I should have written the guide earlier I guess. 

 

Compared to other headsets (except the Index as it's the most native SteamVR you can get), it's the easiest to keep running once set-up once. It's easier to keep running optimally than:

Quest 2

Aero

Pimax (is that even a question)

HTC's Vives

WMR headsets 

 

Once set-up once, all you need to do with the Pico 4 is two buttons and once click:

Power button of your PC

Power button of the Pico 

Click virtual desktop in VR

 

The Index is really plug and play though. It doesn't require any bit of tinkering whatsoever.

 

That you had stutters means you didn't set it up correctly. No worries though, we'll probably see the Deckard next year. 

 

Just avoid anything else in the meantime, like for example the new Pimax Crystal coming... That'll be a lot to deal with I presume.

Edited November 9, 2022 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[chiliwili69]

16 hours ago, dburne said:

Do they turn around and sell them as new units again?

They review the returned product to check it is working OK and they sell it again as a re-aconditioned product at a lower price usually. But this may vary depeding on the contracts between retailer and manufacturer.

1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That you had stutters means you didn't set it up correctly.

Yes, I believe so. But it is not easy to find the reason, so menay parameters to check.

But there were other issues on top of that (comfort, etc).

About the Pimax Crystal I have no intention to test it. Unless all Crystal reviews are good and the deckard is postponed to 2025.

 

or just image a Pico4 with a DP cable!  (no routers, no compressed images, no charging batteries, no GPU power spent in encoding, better latencies) just for seated games.

But the Pico4 for stand up games is great!

1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Once set-up once, all you need to do with the Pico 4 is two buttons and once click:

Power button of your PC

Power button of the Pico 

Click virtual desktop in VR

 

Well, it is not exactly like that

 

- Previous (Connect the dedicated router and switch on, normally when not using the Pico I was swicthin off the dedicater router and plug/unplug ethernet cables)

- Be sure there is enough light in the room for inside-out tracking.

- Power button of PC

- Start VD streamer in the PC

- Power button of the Pico (Previously charged battery or extra battery or cable to plug)

- Switch on one Pico controller and select seated mode and enter VR

- Click VD in VR

- Connect your own audio

- Launch IL-2

 

In the case of the Index:

- Power button of PC

- Power switch (Index and basestation, it is in the same plug)

- Launch IL-2

 

[Kapteeni]

I have Pico 4. It is good for games like No man’s Sky and sporting games. I have a gaming laptop with RTX 3060 and desktop with RTX 1660 TI and they both can’t handle VR good enough. I need to upgrade really bad.

I can run IL2 with potato settings, but it looks like playing with 640x 480 resolution. Or maybe little better...

 

But PICO is a cool headset for many other games. And that free 3d painting software is nice. 

Need to test more, but so far i like my headset. 

[dburne]

3 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

They review the returned product to check it is working OK and they sell it again as a re-aconditioned product at a lower price usually. But this may vary depeding on the contracts between retailer and manufacturer.

Yes, I believe so. But it is not easy to find the reason, so menay parameters to check.

But there were other issues on top of that (comfort, etc).

About the Pimax Crystal I have no intention to test it. Unless all Crystal reviews are good and the deckard is postponed to 2025.

 

or just image a Pico4 with a DP cable!  (no routers, no compressed images, no charging batteries, no GPU power spent in encoding, better latencies) just for seated games.

But the Pico4 for stand up games is great!

 

Well, it is not exactly like that

 

- Previous (Connect the dedicated router and switch on, normally when not using the Pico I was swicthin off the dedicater router and plug/unplug ethernet cables)

- Be sure there is enough light in the room for inside-out tracking.

- Power button of PC

- Start VD streamer in the PC

- Power button of the Pico (Previously charged battery or extra battery or cable to plug)

- Switch on one Pico controller and select seated mode and enter VR

- Click VD in VR

- Connect your own audio

- Launch IL-2

 

In the case of the Index:

- Power button of PC

- Power switch (Index and basestation, it is in the same plug)

- Launch IL-2

 

 

I have one more step in my Aero, launch Varjo Base followed by Steam VR.

My PC is on all day so I don't really count that one.

Edited November 9, 2022 by dburne

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

7 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Well, it is not exactly like that

 

- Previous (Connect the dedicated router and switch on, normally when not using the Pico I was swicthin off the dedicater router and plug/unplug ethernet cables)

- Be sure there is enough light in the room for inside-out tracking.

- Power button of PC

- Start VD streamer in the PC

- Power button of the Pico (Previously charged battery or extra battery or cable to plug)

- Switch on one Pico controller and select seated mode and enter VR

- Click VD in VR

- Connect your own audio

- Launch IL-2

 

In the case of the Index:

- Power button of PC

- Power switch (Index and basestation, it is in the same plug)

- Launch IL-2

 

 

For me it's likewise, in case of Index.

In case of Pico 4, it's

- Turn PC on

- Turn Pico on and put on head

- Start Virtual Desktop in Pico Library

- Launch IL-2 in Virtual Desktop

 

The apps you mentioned are on autostart, and the audio I always have on already (I prefer proper HiFi -> Sennheiser PXC 550 II, they connect wirelessly to my PC when I take them from the stand). I don't understand why you switched to seated mode. Just put it on, it automatically recognizes where you are when setup with a room.

 

If you go towards Inside-Out-Tracking, which has pulled equal to LH in precision - bar edge cases like sticking up a controller under your armpit - the future judging by all metrics and direction of developers, and play in a dark room, you might want to get a simple Infrared Emitting Light (purchasable on Amazon for 30,-). It illuminates the room invisibly and you can play in pitch black - and also use the passthrough in pitch black. The fraction of a cost of a single LH.

There are also VR IR light emitters which you can mount into the USB-c port (have pass through for power). They always cast IR to the front. You can actually walk through the house in pitch black - with the Pico as night vision goggles - get something from the fridge - take a p*** in pitch black darkness - and waltz back over to your mancave. True wireless VR. Epic.

 

Very family friendly indeed! ;))

 

P.S. Will have to write the guide after all -.- it's correct that a lot can be done "false" because there's too many options and variables. There is only the (one) way.

Edited November 10, 2022 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[simfan2015]

6 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Will have to write the guide after all

That would be highly appreciated Fenris !

I am sure I can still learn quite a lot from it. 

[chiliwili69]

7 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

play in a dark room, you might want to get a simple Infrared Emitting Light (purchasable on Amazon for 30,-)

Yes, this is one of things that definetely would buy if I had kept the Pico4 or any other headset with inside-out tracking.

[firdimigdi]

15 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

In the case of the Index:

- Power button of PC

- Power switch (Index and basestation, it is in the same plug)

- Launch IL-2

 

I imagine that's pretty much the case with all mature ecosystem HMDs.

 

With the Rift S I used to turn on pc, start the oculus service (didn't keep it on auto), start a game.

With the G2 I turn on the pc, turn on the HMD, start a game.

 

In both cases the only prerequisite was that the headset was on my desk instead of on a shelf when starting it up so the inside-out tracking hints didn't have to be reset. Oh, and at winter time I usually let them warm up for 5-6 minutes to avoid fogging up the lenses.

 

For IL-2 specifically I ended up making a .bat file because of all the peripheral software (joy2key, simshaker, xrnecksafer etc) - that was always more of a fuss than getting in to VR.

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

10 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

You can actually walk through the house in pitch black - with the Pico as night vision goggles - get something from the fridge - take a p*** in pitch black darkness - and waltz back over to your mancave. True wireless VR. Epic.

 

Very family friendly indeed! ;))

 

P.S. Will have to write the guide after all -.- it's correct that a lot can be done "false" because there's too many options and variables. There is only the (one) way.

 

 

hahahah, I totally agree with Epic description, for me also it feels like a truly wireless solution and passthrough works really wonderfully all in all, just activating it with double tap in ANY moment of the game or general VR experience is immensely nice for me as an user.

 

the vents in Pico are totally inaudible and prevent fogginess which was a slight issue for me personally with G2 (sold mine for 250 ?‍♂️) and now with prescription lens inserts I feel that FOV of Pico is just perfect in vertical, and I only wish for like 15 degrees more in horizontal...

I would love if you posted your setup of Pico in details ^^ (?)

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by 102nd-YU-cmirko

[Youtch]

Does using Pico imply abandonning OpenXr toolkit?

 

I grew very fan of the toolkit, to change worldscale, improve color rendering and put CSA/FSR sharpening.

[356thFS_Piranha]

I have a question.

If there is a CPU in the head set. Do you still need a powerful PC with a high end GPU to run it?

If you do why?

Thanks

[simfan2015]

Pico 4 can run in higher resolution than quest 2!... 

https://uploadvr.com/red-matter-2-pico-4-performance/

[firdimigdi]

4 hours ago, 86th_Piranha said:

If there is a CPU in the head set. Do you still need a powerful PC with a high end GPU to run it?

If you do why?

 

Yes. Because the rendering occurs on your PC, not on the headset.

 

The HMD's built-in CPU/GPU are powerful enough for standalone usage (lower detail, lower res games) - for it to handle any sort of rendering workload from the PC instead of simply acting as a display (or as a decoder of compressed video and a display as is the case with the Pico4 and the Quest devices) then it would need to be specifically designed to register itself as an external GPU with whatever that entails.

[simfan2015]

From all I read here about standalone headsets it seems those need an even beefier PC to use pc vr content compared to those PC oriented hmds that are connected thru a Display port. 

It may only be a few percent difference, but still something to keep in mind. 

[356thFS_Piranha]

Thanks for the explanation.

[chiliwili69]

7 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

It may only be a few percent difference, but still something to keep in mind.

basically some more GPU load for encoding.

VD streamer doesn´t almost load CPU accodring to ggodin.

[Alonzo]

On 11/9/2022 at 6:00 PM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Will have to write the guide after all

 

Yes please!

[chiliwili69]

 

Amazing, isn´t it. That a device that cost 4 times more has worse SDE and less FOV. All of them are limited by the 150MBps decoding limit of the XR2 gen1 chip.

 

And for objects in movement the Pico4 does a better job in the compressed stream. Look how blury is the moving car in the Quest Pro, thats should not be acceptable in a 1800€ device!!

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

update of headset OS happened for me this morning... (and controllers which I don't use much)

We are happy to announce that PICO PUI release 5.2 is in soft launch with full release starting next week (completed by November 18th). The release notes are the following:

1.    Added "Lock Screen" function to protect user privacy;
2.    Added "Beginner's Guide" application, this app helps you understand the basic operations of Pico OS to improve the new user experience;
3.    The overall performance of the PlayArea has been upgraded, and the screen effect and algorithm has been optimized;
4.    Improved battery life and optimized the power management strategy when using while charging;
5.    Optimized the color performance of the ColorSeeThrough;
6.    Optimized the network performance;
7.    Optimized the algorithm for hand tracking to improve the recognition accuracy;
8.    Fixed the problem of screen drift when using reclining mode;
9.    Fixed the issue that the speaker would have a sizzling sound when the battery is low;
10.    Increased the range of the audio volume to allow for a better listening experience;
11.    Fixed the problem of low frame rate when sliding the appstore page;
12.    Improved system performance and stability;

 

 

Color performance and passthrough is indeed crisper looking and colours seems to pop out more....

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

https://github.com/fholger/openvr_fsr

 

works perfectly with Pico ^^

 

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, 102nd-YU-cmirko said:

https://github.com/fholger/openvr_fsr

 

works perfectly with Pico ^^

 

But OpenVR toolkit does not, correct? Is it only limited to WMR device, and therefore cannot be applied to Pico.

 

Pity because i really like tweaking the color rendering of the image.

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

 correct, Virtual Desktop discord dev's have mentioned that they're developing openXR implementation but no firm details or info is provided when and if it will succeed....

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by 102nd-YU-cmirko
for posterity - wrong information ^^

[dburne]