BoN, the Damage Model, and the P-47 are just awesome.

[RyanR]

The P-47 is such a fun plane to fly. She's a slug with bombs.... but once you drop the bombs, slide the the levels to the firewall, and she climbs OK, pretty well with water injection. Get your group up to 10K feet or more for the flight home. The 190A's can't breathe well up there and can be easy prey (The .50's have been working really well since the last tweak in a prior update), and you can nose down to run from the G-6 if you can't get the odds in your favor after some maneuvering.

 

On the way back from one mission over the continent before D-Day, we got jumped by 190's and 109's. I managed to get an A-6, but coming off that, a 109 peppered me with 20mm from 12 O'Clock low. Pilot injury, right wing is fairly shredded and drops hard, rudder's stuck, half the gauges are shot up, engine is not happy, stuff is leaking. I dropped 5K feet. Takes full left stick just to keep the plane level and the slip indicator is pegged. there's oil all over the windscreen, and a bullet hole in the armored glass. I think even the Technochat is out. I'm thinking that this plane is *broke*.... and even if I can get the plane home (still gotta fly across the channel!), we're just going to spiral in if we try to drop flaps. So the question is how far do I need to go before I can safely bail out and get home?

 

Then I realize that the plane is still *flying*. The rudder responds with the trim tab, and I can zero out the ball. Full aileron trim gets the plane level with neutral stick. I pulled the mixture back to auto lean, cut the turbo (manifold pressure gauge is shot up), and got the plane back across the channel. Nice to see those famous white cliffs! I slowed the plane down a bit to see if it would still fly at "landing speeds".... and it seemed OK down to about 150mph. Let's try to land! I lined up early, got the plane trimmed as best I could, and came in HOT. I was at 150mph before touching down with the main wheels. I still thought I was airborne when I head the brakes squeal as I tapped the toe brakes. Probably my smoothest landing in the P-47 to date. I must have dropped the flap as I slowed down. Between the open cowl flaps, the greasy windshield, and the bloody pilot, I couldn't see what I had for runway ahead of me. I rolled to a stop, got the plane off the runway and shut it down.

 

The whole thing was reminiscent of the famous flight home in Robert Johnson's book, "Thunderbolt!". It's amazing how many details work on the Thunderbolt when it's not shot up.... yet it's equally amazing how many things can be broke, and the plane still is functional because there's apparently enough attention to detail in both the damage model and the flight model. Impressive.

 

Thanks to the developers for what was a genuine thrill!

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by RyanR

[R33GZ]

Nice AAR ? I'm surprised you didn't smear yourself all over the approach end with that massive chunk of wing missing ?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Yes! Awesome! I love these kinds of posts sharing the whole experience. Sometimes bringing back a shot up aircraft is an experience entirely its own!

[SCG_motoadve]

Did you landed with the left flap deployed? In real life that would send you in a spin.

[RyanR]

2 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Did you landed with the left flap deployed? In real life that would send you in a spin.

 

I'm pretty sure that will spin you in-game as well. Flap was up when I touched down. At some point going down the runway (when I was sure I had toe brake authority), I must have put the lone flap down to help slow down. I was screaming down the runway (like the end of the movie Airplane!). I came in fast because no-flaps, but I also I was worried about not having enough speed/lift to keep the shredded right wing from falling.

 

-Ryan

 

 

[Denum]

55 minutes ago, RyanR said:

 

I'm pretty sure that will spin you in-game as well. Flap was up when I touched down. At some point going down the runway (when I was sure I had toe brake authority), I must have put the lone flap down to help slow down. I was screaming down the runway (like the end of the movie Airplane!). I came in fast because no-flaps, but I also I was worried about not having enough speed/lift to keep the shredded right wing from falling.

 

-Ryan

 

 

Keeping your speed up was the thing to do! Nice job. Landing the Jug with that much damage is always an adventure. 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

Really nice, reminds me of a similar experience I had flying Gambit's Hell Hawks campaign. I got badly shot up over Bastogne, then was able to fly back to my home base with my engine giving up on final. I was hugely glad that I stayed on the high side during the whole approach, and was able to glide home.

 

Flying across the snowy Ardennes was nerve-wrecking enough, I can't imagine how it must be to fly across the Channel with nowhere to land. Good thing that once you're above England, there's airfields literally everywhere.

[Airborne506]

Had a similar experience, had a great Jug career going on BoBP, had a mission where after attacking a column I think we got jumped by 190s. I managed to down 2 but got sprayed by a third that popped my oil line. Could barely see out of the cockpit so I decided to head back to base, some of my flight was back already and in the landing pattern but I skirted the line because I was damaged and came right in - was a surprisingly smooth landing I was feeling quite proud - until I slammed head on into one of my squadron mates. I came down the wrong way in the pattern. Hoping not to make that mistake again in Normandy ?

[RyanR]

11 hours ago, Denum said:

Keeping your speed up was the thing to do! Nice job. Landing the Jug with that much damage is always an adventure. 

 

 

Thanks! This was a lesson I learned the hard way with other planes in the sim. Nothing like finding out on final that your bum wing is going to stall out. Since then I try to feel the plane out at "landing speed" with plenty of altitude to recover or bail out if it's not going to work. Thank goodness it's not real life. On the plus side, enemy AI pilots will attempt to do normal landings with too much damage, then they stall out and die.... then you get a delayed "kill"

 

 

5 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Really nice, reminds me of a similar experience I had flying Gambit's Hell Hawks campaign. I got badly shot up over Bastogne, then was able to fly back to my home base with my engine giving up on final. I was hugely glad that I stayed on the high side during the whole approach, and was able to glide home.

 

Flying across the snowy Ardennes was nerve-wrecking enough, I can't imagine how it must be to fly across the Channel with nowhere to land. Good thing that once you're above England, there's airfields literally everywhere.

 

 

Yikes! I've had an engine failure on final as well. Those are less fun. Any ideas if survival is likely when jumping out over the channel? I've done one or two experiments. You survive if you "finish spectate" before landing in the water. You die of you watch your pilot go all the way down. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Airborne506 said:

Had a similar experience, had a great Jug career going on BoBP, had a mission where after attacking a column I think we got jumped by 190s. I managed to down 2 but got sprayed by a third that popped my oil line. Could barely see out of the cockpit so I decided to head back to base, some of my flight was back already and in the landing pattern but I skirted the line because I was damaged and came right in - was a surprisingly smooth landing I was feeling quite proud - until I slammed head on into one of my squadron mates. I came down the wrong way in the pattern. Hoping not to make that mistake again in Normandy ?

 

At least one can open the canopy in the Razorback when the oil is flying.

 

Finding a place in line to land is always frustrating... and I figure since I'm paying the bills, the AI should let me land first.

 

I've always have a soft spot for the Jug. It's a little more forgiving in combat than a 190A, but it's still a challenge. IL-2 provides a good environment to enjoy it since escort and .50 caliber updates. I used to do the online flying thing 20-25 years ago, and the P-47 was definitely not for furballin'.

 

-Ryan

 

-Ryan

[Jade_Monkey]

I run out of fuel on the P47 over the channel on the way back after a successful sortie over St Omer.

 

I didn't use a full tank when taking off and I was not keeping an eye on the gauge, so it caught me by surprise.

 

Fortunately I was flying above 4000m and i had some altitude i could trade for some gliding distance. I made it to Hawkinge and i could have made it but i foolishly extended the flaps too much, and crashed a few meters before landing.

 

These are the memorable sorties that make the sim worth it. The quick fireball wears off quickly.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Jade_Monkey

[RyanR]

 

In much fuel saved by switching to Auto-Lean when cruising? I've been doing so when at cruise altitude. Then, adjusting the mixture back to Auto-Rich is just one more thing to do when getting the plane ready for combat. Mixture, turbo, turbo to throttle pawl, prop, throttle, oil cooler, intercooler, get ready on water injection...  

 

-Ryan

[VBF-12_Stele]

Razorback is my favorite plane in the whole series, although it really only shines well under certain circumstances especially when with wingmen. Definitely not a lone hunter, but does amazingly well as a group.

[Feldgrun]

I'm glad you could walk away from that one. I'm surprised you didn't crash on approach.

[Talon_]

14 hours ago, RyanR said:

 

In much fuel saved by switching to Auto-Lean when cruising? I've been doing so when at cruise altitude. Then, adjusting the mixture back to Auto-Rich is just one more thing to do when getting the plane ready for combat. Mixture, turbo, turbo to throttle pawl, prop, throttle, oil cooler, intercooler, get ready on water injection...  

 

-Ryan

 

Fuel consumption at auto-lean 55% throttle/RPM/turbo is about half that of combat power. If you're willing to take the trip you can get about two hours out of a Jug tank this way, while flying at max continuous with a bit of combat thrown in will drain you in just over an hour.

[RyanR]

13 hours ago, VBF-12_Stele said:

Razorback is my favorite plane in the whole series, although it really only shines well under certain circumstances especially when with wingmen. Definitely not a lone hunter, but does amazingly well as a group.

 

It's a neat plane. Lots of controls and dials so you can do science experiments while flying across the channel. Lots to learn about how things work. Flight-wise, I love how the plane perks up at altitude. The whine of a turbocharger is always a nice sound.

 

 

11 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

I'm glad you could walk away from that one. I'm surprised you didn't crash on approach.

 

Awesome pic!

 

I chalk the landing up to the flight and damage models being well "tuned". The return flight was a "very P-47" experience that you'd read about in memoirs. Add in the English Channel, and it was really immersive. A lesser plane would have likely spun in trying to land.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Fuel consumption at auto-lean 55% throttle/RPM/turbo is about half that of combat power. If you're willing to take the trip you can get about two hours out of a Jug tank this way, while flying at max continuous with a bit of combat thrown in will drain you in just over an hour.

 

Thanks! Very helpful! At 5K feet "mission altitude" with bombs, I've been cruising at auto-lean with the turbo zeroed-out, intercooler doors shut, and the throttle/prop around 70%. Once the escort is overhead and enemy lines are in sight, I'll bring it to max-cruise, and get the turbo and prop pawls ready for combat.

 

-Ryan

[EAF19_Marsh]

Jug is way OP ROFLMAO!

 

Great account, well done on getting her back with such skill ?

[[CPT]Crunch]

P-47's not all OK, it's not even a decent ground attack platform, no one in their right mind would field it.  It's worthless in any precision attack involving any legit dive angles because it can't even pull its own fat ass out of one.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

P-47's not all OK, it's not even a decent ground attack platform, no one in their right mind would field it.  It's worthless in any precision attack involving any legit dive angles because it can't even pull its own fat ass out of one.

 

https://warbirdsnews.com/warbird-restorations/dakota-territory-air-museum-p-47d-restoration-update-august-september-2022.html

 

Quote

Glide Bombing

 

Glide bombing is a tactic which employs a reduced dive angle and power reduction to manage speed while delivering ordnance on target.

 

Glide bombing experiments began when pilots found that dive bombing in a P-47 wasn’t particularly effective. The problem with dive bombing was that the Thunderbolt gained too much speed in a dive. Dedicated dive bombers are able to control their speed with the use of dive brakes, a device which the P-47 lacked. For dive angles of 60° or more, necessary for accuracy, the P-47’s velocity would build up excessively, making aircraft control unmanageable. Furthermore, when Thunderbolts carried wing-mounted 1,000lb bombs or 165 gallon drop tanks, aileron buffeting would occur for dive speeds over 325 to 350 mph .

 

It's not a bug, it's a feature. ?

Edited September 23, 2022 by LukeFF

[[CPT]Crunch]

LoL, it can't even clear a tree line safely in a strafing run.

[354thFG_Rails]

Sounds like a skill issue. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

LoL, seems there's a general lack of skill than, according to these stats.

 

https://combatbox.net/en/all_aircraft/?tour=50&sort_by=-bomb_rocket_accuracy&page=2

 

Talk about a suck ass platform for attack.

[Irishratticus72]

I once travelled six kilometres without BOTH wings. Admittedly, it was vertically, but still.

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

LoL, it can't even clear a tree line safely in a strafing run.

 

If you want to believe that, based in part on a MP leaderboard, go right ahead. ?

[[CPT]Crunch]

The evidence you presented proves actual dive bombing was done and an expectation in the beginning.  I said legit dive angles, like every other fighter attack type utilizes, nothing about dive bombing, why present dive bombing as its weakness?  Unless the intent is smokescreen its dismal performance as an attacker.

 

The data from in game performance proves its unsound as an attack platform in any measure in game.  One out of five ordinance drops ever hits, absolutely abysmal for a historically purposed fighter attack type.  Why should anyone bother flying this turd?  Four out of five sorties wasted. 

 

Contrast that with a 190, two hits for every three drops.  No wonder that side wins nearly every match, they must all have the SkiLLz.  The thing should be rock stable with its mass and able to deliver on target, in reality it could not only dive bomb, but lob and toss bomb with reasonable accuracy.  This thing can't and doesn't deliver, end of story.

[Lusekofte]

P 47 was my biggest disappointment in this game. DCS put that right. I understood this  topic that  DM is changed, anything changed must be a good thing

[Guest deleted@83466]

I don’t follow the logic that something must be wrong with the P-47 because MP players are getting poor bombing results.  If you drop the bomb at the correct speed and angle and altitude, it shouldn’t really matter what plane is dropping it.  So what if it mushes when pulling out?   If it does, and that is a hazard to the plane and pilot, then it requires a different angle, speed, and altitude than if you were flying a different aircraft.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Who said anything was wrong with it, just contradicting the all is great wonder airframe, and calling it what it really is in game terms, crap.  Someone wanted to know why, I showed it in game terms.  If you want to see that other popular servers stats don't waste your time, they roundly reject it, they simply don't fly it relative the rest of the planes according to the logged game stats.

 

Don't get so sensitive because a bunch of us don't like it, in game terms it is crap, you can attempt to convince us otherwise but don't expect to succeed.  Shouldn't sell it with unearned fluff, someone may buy the game just for it with the issued rose tinted glasses and walk away extremely pissed from the sales pitch.  If you enjoy it and succeed with it, more power to you have fun, but your an exception.   Than one has to wonder why your wasting your talents on this thing. 

[Jade_Monkey]

18 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Who said anything was wrong with it, just contradicting the all is great wonder airframe, and calling it what it really is in game terms, crap.  Someone wanted to know why, I showed it in game terms.  If you want to see that other popular servers stats don't waste your time, they roundly reject it, they simply don't fly it relative the rest of the planes according to the logged game stats.

 

Don't get so sensitive because a bunch of us don't like it, in game terms it is crap, you can attempt to convince us otherwise but don't expect to succeed.  Shouldn't sell it with unearned fluff, someone may buy the game just for it with the issued rose tinted glasses and walk away extremely pissed from the sales pitch.  If you enjoy it and succeed with it, more power to you have fun, but your an exception.   Than one has to wonder why your wasting your talents on this thing. 

 

Sheeesh, did the P-47 steal your girl or something?

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

The evidence you presented proves actual dive bombing was done and an expectation in the beginning.  I said legit dive angles, like every other fighter attack type utilizes, nothing about dive bombing, why present dive bombing as its weakness?  Unless the intent is smokescreen its dismal performance as an attacker.

 

What? Yes, it was expected it would be a good dive bomber, and then they found out in reality it wasn't a good dive-bomber. So, if it doesn't handle dive attacks on ground targets well in the game, then that's just the game mimicking reality. What's the issue, then? Glide attack with it, like the real pilots did, and the problem goes away. 

 

Using stats from an MP server proves nothing other than that gamers are a fickle bunch and will like certain planes more than others for any number of reasons. 

6 hours ago, 86th_Rails said:

Sounds like a skill issue. 

 

It does. Seriously, I can attack ground targets all day in the Thunderbolt like the real pilots did and there's not an issue to be seen. It's not always an issue of skill, I agree but in this case? It most certainly is. 

[BraveSirRobin]

5 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

LoL, seems there's a general lack of skill than, according to these stats.

 

https://combatbox.net/en/all_aircraft/?tour=50&sort_by=-bomb_rocket_accuracy&page=2

 

Talk about a suck ass platform for attack.

Did you notice that those stats show that the Stuka is one of the most inaccurate ground attack aircraft in the game?  

[Guest deleted@83466]

I did, but I’d had a few drinks and thought it was just me.

[Lusekofte]

I never really had a problem with accuracy on the p 47, because it's glass engine seized before getting to that point.

It was by far the easiest plane to shoot down. One 7 mm bullet would stop it.

If that has changed, I most serially would pick it up again

[AEthelraedUnraed]

19 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

The data from in game performance proves its unsound as an attack platform in any measure in game.  One out of five ordinance drops ever hits, absolutely abysmal for a historically purposed fighter attack type.  Why should anyone bother flying this turd?  Four out of five sorties wasted. 

Honestly, you should try my Hürtgenwald campaign (free). It's got only historically-inspired missions, and the P-47 does perform pretty well there (IMO, at least).

 

Having tested all my Hürtgenwald missions between 3 and 15 or so times, I think I can get an accuracy of around 80% on ground targets. With bombs that is, never understood those damned rockets. Guns are fine too.

 

Also, based on what I read, I think 80% is way above the real-life accuracy...

Edited September 24, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed

[[CPT]Crunch]

15 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Did you notice that those stats show that the Stuka is one of the most inaccurate ground attack aircraft in the game?  

And that would take a real genius to figure out why, dumping a 1930's plane into a 44 set, good grief.  It never even makes it to target.  Apple to orange, but nice try.

16 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Using stats from an MP server proves nothing other than that gamers are a fickle bunch and will like certain planes more than others for any number of reasons. 

 

Yeah, but when you put the whole puzzle together like game data and things like Combat Box allowing crutches like 150 fuel and unlimited airframes solely for the 47 to keep complaints down and the plane in use on their maps, pretty strong indicator it really is crap in both roles.  We've been fed a myth in here it's better to use it at its ground game over its fighter role, when the truth is its marginal at both in a competitive environment. 

[BraveSirRobin]

36 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

And that would take a real genius to figure out why, dumping a 1930's plane into a 44 set, good grief.  It never even makes it to target.  

If it doesn’t make it to the target then it doesn’t show up in the accuracy stats.  It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.  The stat measures accuracy of bombs actually dropped.  And the Stuka is terrible.  That should tell you how meaningful the stats that you decided to use actually are.

 

BTW, it includes rockets as well.  And I’ll bet that lots of people strap rockets on their P-47 and then miss every target by 500m.  Basically, the stat is practically useless.

Edited September 24, 2022 by BraveSirRobin

[=621=Samikatz]

Don't forget bombs that are ditched to improve performance when you come across air targets. I bet a lot of allied fighters will have a bomb on board just in case they run into nobody, but it'll be jettisoned as soon as a fighter is spotted

[jollyjack]

17 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Sheeesh, did the P-47 steal your girl or something?

 

Or makes him think of his mother in law?:

[Denum]

Jug is great at ground attack, 

 

I usually dive in, do my rocket salvos then pickle my bombs in 3 salvos.

 

Firewall the throttle and you're gone.

 

Her current FM requires a bit of finesse. So if all you've flown is 109s and Spits you'll have a bit a of learning curve 

[oc2209]

23 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

The evidence you presented proves actual dive bombing was done and an expectation in the beginning.  I said legit dive angles, like every other fighter attack type utilizes, nothing about dive bombing, why present dive bombing as its weakness?  Unless the intent is smokescreen its dismal performance as an attacker.

 

The data from in game performance proves its unsound as an attack platform in any measure in game.  One out of five ordinance drops ever hits, absolutely abysmal for a historically purposed fighter attack type.  Why should anyone bother flying this turd?  Four out of five sorties wasted. 

 

Contrast that with a 190, two hits for every three drops.  No wonder that side wins nearly every match, they must all have the SkiLLz.  The thing should be rock stable with its mass and able to deliver on target, in reality it could not only dive bomb, but lob and toss bomb with reasonable accuracy.  This thing can't and doesn't deliver, end of story.

 

As someone who rarely/never does ground attack, I don't have any stake in this argument. But as someone who superficially understands the basic physics of ground attack planes, I have to ask:

 

How can a plane be responsible for the pilot releasing a bomb at the wrong time? That's all it boils down to.

 

With very little experience, I managed to do this in one try:

 

Spoiler

 

 

And no, I wasn't using 150 octane. 50% fuel load. Boost on.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Requiem has some videos on bombing/rocketing in it.