Question about british and american bombs

[parkerc341]

Are they like the FABs where I have to put a timer for them to go off? Sometimes I find that in low level mosquito, typhoon, or P47 raids my bombs don't seem to go off.

[Hook_Echo]

Your instinct is correct. 5 second timer will allow them to always go off.

[FeuerFliegen]

While we're talking about British and US bombs, are there any differences between the two?  I've noticed the British bombs typically weigh a tiny bit less; but doubtful that it's enough to make any real difference.

[Stonehouse]

5 secs seems like a long time especially for use on moving targets. I would have thought the bombs armed almost immediately as the arming vane usually doesn't have to turn much to arm the pistol and the fusing was immediate or nearly so. I think I read somewhere - maybe DCS land so not sure how good a reference that is - that they had a special bomb for the Mossie which armed immediately but was fused to go off with up to a 30 min delay. These MC bombs were general purpose though so wouldn't think they would have too much delay. 

Might be a bug? British Bomb, 250 lb MC, Mk 1, Mk 2 (bulletpicker.com)

Looking at the notes on the nose pistol sounds like arming time was 3 revolutions of the vane which would be less than 5 secs you'd think, appears like it was Instantaneous on impact

OP 1665, British Explosive Ordnance (bulletpicker.com)

Edited September 16, 2022 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

So, I guess that means no delayed fusing for these bombs and contact would be the realistic choice and you'd have to use them appropriately.

 

<edit>

Contact works fine but don't drop them too low and slow. I actually think from the Ordnance notes from 1946 that you likely could not safe the fuses in flight either as it sounds like you needed to insert a pin and obviously this would be only possible on the ground in a Mossie. You could likely do it ok on a Lancaster or something because you had access to the bombs in the bay.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Stonehouse

[PhilthySpud]

5 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

You could likely do it ok on a Lancaster or something because you had access to the bombs in the bay.

 

Er…no you didn’t.

 

In any case, the arming safety pin is only pulled out when the bomb is actually dropped.

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, PhilthySpud said:

Er…no you didn’t.

 

In any case, the arming safety pin is only pulled out when the bomb is actually dropped.

Ok. I was actually thinking of the game keystroke mapping to safe the bombs not the pin to stop the vane spinning - I was thinking it didn't sound possible to make the bombs safe in the air on something like the Mosquito and that it would need to be something done on the ground, hence the thought that with access to the bombs in a larger aircraft it may have been. No doubt I misread the pdf and got it wrong sorry.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Stonehouse

[BlitzPig_EL]

I use the 5 second delay for every drop, regardless of target, or method of attack.

It's the only way to be sure.

[PhilthySpud]

15 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I use the 5 second delay for every drop, regardless of target, or method of attack.

It's the only way to be sure.

Nuking them from orbit is the only way to be sure. ?

23 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Ok. I was actually thinking of the game keystroke mapping to safe the bombs not the pin to stop the vane spinning - I was thinking it didn't sound possible to make the bombs safe in the air on something like the Mosquito and that it would need to be something done on the ground, hence the thought that with access to the bombs in a larger aircraft it may have been. No doubt I misread the pdf and got it wrong sorry.

I’m far from being an ordnance expert and may have this completely wrong, but my understanding of British practice is that they generally used safety pins that were withdrawn when the bomb dropped, allowing a secondary mechanism (e.g. vane) to complete the arming process. Having said that, there are stories of bombs dropping off the shackles and rolling around inside the bomb bay - not armed yet, but impossible to safe in flight. Not much fun!

 

This system also permitted the use of, say, a nose and tail fuse with different delays. Selection (or, rather, non-selection) of the fuses through the bomb selection panel would leave the safety pin in one or both fuses, allowing delay selection or inert dropping. 
 

In contrast, my understanding is that German fuses were electro-mechanical and were armed by an electrical impulse from the aircraft at the time of release.

 

But I could be wrong about most of this. ?

[RossMarBow]

5s is the generally time for all bombs

I know German bombs have a fuse between when you drop them and when they hit the ground - so anything shorter than 5s on the explosion fuse makes the first fuse longer so they often won't go off if your too low.

 

Not sure if allied bombs have a similar setup, but I vaguely remember dropping bombs really low in a a20b and they didn't go off.

[Stonehouse]

I really can only go by the doco I linked which seemed to say that the arming took 3 turns of the vane and the fusing was contact. So I get the impression the 250 and 500 lb MC did not have delayed fusing.

[Gingerwelsh]

35 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

I really can only go by the doco I linked which seemed to say that the arming took 3 turns of the vane and the fusing was contact. So I get the impression the 250 and 500 lb MC did not have delayed fusing.

 

In general US bombs had fuses both ends and British bombs had pistol and detonator, placed mostly in the rear.

 

The main Brit pistol is the No 30 which has 13 vane turns to arm and is instantaneous on ground contact.

The detonator is the timer, which has several sub 1 sec, plus ,2,3 and 11 seconds delays, plus 25/30sec  from late 1944.

There are also chemical pistols which have delays up to 144 hours.

 

For skip bombing there is a pistol specially for Mosquito etc, which will work when the bomb contacts the ground on its side, which will start the timer from that point,

11 sec in the case of the Amiens Prison raid

 

..

[Stonehouse]

10 hours ago, Gingerwelsh said:

 

In general US bombs had fuses both ends and British bombs had pistol and detonator, placed mostly in the rear.

 

The main Brit pistol is the No 30 which has 13 vane turns to arm and is instantaneous on ground contact.

The detonator is the timer, which has several sub 1 sec, plus ,2,3 and 11 seconds delays, plus 25/30sec  from late 1944.

There are also chemical pistols which have delays up to 144 hours.

 

For skip bombing there is a pistol specially for Mosquito etc, which will work when the bomb contacts the ground on its side, which will start the timer from that point,

11 sec in the case of the Amiens Prison raid

 

..

Sorry - I must need more coffee today, didn't pick up on what your response implies, so bringing it back around to the original point about bombs not going off unless a 5 sec timing or contact was chosen in game.

 

You mention several settings for the detonator which are under 5 secs. You do say that the vane is 13 turns to arm.

Does that mean that it takes 5 secs for the 13 turns and for the bomb to arm and that is the reason for our bombs not detonating in game when we choose less than 5 secs?

Or is it a 5 sec delay for detonation we are being forced to choose and so we have a bug because we should be able to pick less and have it work according to your comments on the No 30 pistol?

 

I know picking contact works fine in game so I am assuming that we are picking a delayed detonation time and not the arming time and so it means we have a bug?

[Gingerwelsh]

OK. Real life.

 

The pistol has no influence on the timer, whether it be a 3 turn nose or 13 turn tail arming vane.

 

The tail pistol is a simple inertia weight with striker, which runs forward when the bomb hits the ground and strikes the detonator. The timing starts here.

The detonator will now burn and set off the exploder which then sets off the filler.

Detonators can either be instant or have a timed delay filler, I always use 3 sec.

 

If the arming vane has unscrewed the striker, the bomb should go bang, no matter what length of timer is installed.

 

The problem now is, how does the game interpret this? I don't know.

The only reason a bomb doesn't go off is when a bomb has been dropped too low, especially in a shallow dive, and it hasn't had time to arm.

..

Edited September 19, 2022 by Gingerwelsh

[EAF19_Marsh]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:34 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

It's the only way to be sure.

 

Or you could nuke the entire site from orbit?

[Stonehouse]

3 hours ago, Gingerwelsh said:

OK. Real life.

 

The pistol has no influence on the timer, whether it be a 3 turn nose or 13 turn tail arming vane.

 

The tail pistol is a simple inertia weight with striker, which runs forward when the bomb hits the ground and strikes the detonator. The timing starts here.

The detonator will now burn and set off the exploder which then sets off the filler.

Detonators can either be instant or have a timed delay filler, I always use 3 sec.

 

If the arming vane has unscrewed the striker, the bomb should go bang, no matter what length of timer is installed.

 

The problem now is, how does the game interpret this? I don't know.

The only reason a bomb doesn't go off is when a bomb has been dropped too low, especially in a shallow dive, and it hasn't had time to arm.

..

 

Ok that is approx what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Stonehouse

[Gingerwelsh]

I tried a few low level (20') runs yesterday and with 10 sec timer, the bomb bounced 5 times and exploded 10 sec after the initial ground strike, as expected, which means the pistol was armed.

With 0/1 and 2 sec timer the bomb just disappeared into the ground, when it should have exploded and destroyed the plane.

From 50' it worked OK.

 

Given the low splash damage of these bombs, maybe they just won't affect the aircraft if they go off.

This would be worse than what we have, if they exploded and had no effect.

Game work round or bug, IDK, but I'm OK with what we have ATM.

 

Can't do any more today as the game doesn't work.

 

..

[Jaegermeister]

28 minutes ago, Gingerwelsh said:

I tried a few low level (20') runs yesterday and with 10 sec timer, the bomb bounced 5 times and exploded 10 sec after the initial ground strike, as expected, which means the pistol was armed.

With 0/1 and 2 sec timer the bomb just disappeared into the ground, when it should have exploded and destroyed the plane.

From 50' it worked OK.

 

Given the low splash damage of these bombs, maybe they just won't affect the aircraft if they go off.

This would be worse than what we have, if they exploded and had no effect.

Game work round or bug, IDK, but I'm OK with what we have ATM.

 

I have found that if you drop the bombs too close to the ground, they do not go off. I thought it was to simulate arming time in the air. I always use a contact fuse for tanks and bridges so they don't go through the target.

 

I am surprised to hear you can skip bomb with a 10 second fuse from 20 feet and it goes off, but that's actually kind of cool. I would guess it's a "feature", not a bug.

[Gingerwelsh]

3 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

I have found that if you drop the bombs too close to the ground, they do not go off. I thought it was to simulate arming time in the air. I always use a contact fuse for tanks and bridges so they don't go through the target.

 

I am surprised to hear you can skip bomb with a 10 second fuse from 20 feet and it goes off, but that's actually kind of cool. I would guess it's a "feature", not a bug.

 

I'm using 20' to replicate the Amiens Prison raid, where the bombs were dropped from between 50' and 10' to slide along the ground and hit the 11' high wall.

The game does it very well.

 

 

This is as low as you can go with a 10 sec timer, (7 bounces).

 

..

Edited September 20, 2022 by Gingerwelsh

[Jaegermeister]

2 hours ago, Gingerwelsh said:

 

This is as low as you can go with a 10 sec timer, (7 bounces).

 

 

Yeah, it’s hard to get much lower than that, LOL

[Noisemaker]

2 hours ago, Gingerwelsh said:

 

 

This is as low as you can go with a 10 sec timer, (7 bounces).

 

..

How much do you charge for the lawn mowing?

[BlitzPig_EL]

You can only tie the record for lowest flight.

[Irishratticus72]

1 hour ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

Yeah, it’s hard to get much lower than that, LOL

What if the ground was lower, ?

[Noisemaker]

2 hours ago, Irishratticus72 said:

What if the ground was lower, ?

What if I told you, there is no ground?

[Irishratticus72]

28 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

What if I told you, there is no ground?

Well played.