Getting DCS flashbacks

[Gunfreak]

So flying a beachhead cover mission in a spitfire, shot down 2 Fws.

I thought the sky was clear as my AI peeps had shot down several others. When in a fraction of a second I die. A Fw came from directly underneath my plane and killed me. Could it happen in real life. Sure a couple of 20mm though the floor the cockpit can easily kill the pilot. 

My problem was just the insane speed it happened. AI fired just a fraction of a second and hit perfectly with all shots. It felt very DCSy. Where that happens on a regular basis as the AI generally only fire if it has 100% chance of a kill(be it in a Me109 or a MiG21.)

[6./ZG26_Loke]

That is exactly what happen to me last Friday. Only I was in a 410 and the enemy fighter was either a Tempest or Typhoon, and it was in MP. 

Split of a second, bang I'm dead. 

[WIS-Redcoat]

The pilot sniping is off the shelf since the change with pilot damage.  Really seems like something is wrong.

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

So flying a beachhead cover mission in a spitfire, shot down 2 Fws.

I thought the sky was clear as my AI peeps had shot down several others. When in a fraction of a second I die. A Fw came from directly underneath my plane and killed me. Could it happen in real life. Sure a couple of 20mm though the floor the cockpit can easily kill the pilot. 

My problem was just the insane speed it happened. AI fired just a fraction of a second and hit perfectly with all shots. It felt very DCSy. Where that happens on a regular basis as the AI generally only fire if it has 100% chance of a kill(be it in a Me109 or a MiG21.)

 

Got track?

[Gunfreak]

39 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Got track?

Might actually have. I'll check. I started the recording,  but I don't remember if I started the battle recorder program thingy.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Has something changed with BON regarding pilot damage? I got killed several times by the AI since then including once in my bf110 when I took like 4 ShKas bullets from a Yak 1.

[spreckair]

Or maybe it is right now and we are really just terrible fighter pilots...maybe? ?

[stburr91]

44 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Has something changed with BON regarding pilot damage? I got killed several times by the AI since then including once in my bf110 when I took like 4 ShKas bullets from a Yak 1.

 

Yes, they changed the pilot damage model to be more realistic. Whether, or not more realistic is more fun or not is another matter. 

[[CPT]milopugdog]

I think that a more realistic pilot dm can be fun. We just need to change how we fly, keeping in mind that the soft mushy thing in our planes isn't superhuman with the ability to tank rifle caliber ammo and keep flying like he's the black knight anymore.

[357th_KW]

It’s in the patch notes.  In the past the pilot could take multiple rifle shots to the chest and keep flying and fighting.

[DBFlyguy]

I like the new damage model changes including to the pilot.  More realism was definitely needed and this was a very welcome change IMHO.

Edited September 15, 2022 by DBFlyguy

[spreckair]

I think a near miss by a .50 would scare me to death.

[stburr91]

11 minutes ago, spreckair said:

I think a near miss by a .50 would scare me to death.

 Kind of like this guy.

 

 

[Thelivdoc44]

15 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

I like the new damage model changes including to the pilot.  More realism was definitely needed and this was a very welcome change IMHO.

 

I agree. I've been getting my teeth kicked in - admittedly by the AI - but it's been a ton of fun. Flying, flying, bang...black screen. What tha??

 

Sure makes me appreciate proper tactics that much more.

[The_Grim_1]

I love how vulnerable everyone is now. I imagine actual pilots were worried about dying rather than their plane slowly being dismantled. A single piece of shrapnel through the soda can fuselage and it's curtains. 

 

 

[Guster]

It's just the pilot vulnerability that has been changed, isn't it, and not the AI gunnery? At least it seems that way to me. Ace and Veteran AI pilots have always been rather crack shots, and I suppose it's only fair their efforts are rewarded. Anyway, I quite enjoy it this way as it gives a real sense of danger. It's simply bang and game over.

 

On a side note, and it may sound morbid, but I've always liked how the game depicts player death with the switch to the signature external view/out of body experience. It's like the game jumps from being a sim and goes into this very poetic storyteller mode, very elegantly conveying the tragic demise of our hero.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Woe to he who is caught out front, pray to gods of hardened rolled armor plate.

[PatrickAWlson]

16 hours ago, stburr91 said:

 

Yes, they changed the pilot damage model to be more realistic. Whether, or not more realistic is more fun or not is another matter. 

 

Can't say for sure if this is the case, but it could be a more realistic pilot damage model combined with less realistic AI gunnery skills.   In my 30 years around flight sims AI has always been to a greater or lesser degree "fly bad shoot good".

[PaladinX]

I am flying the "Blazing Steppe" campaign since 2 weeks.

Never had any problems with the missions or the enemies.

 

Since we have 5.001 out, the 109F kill me mostly instant with a short burst. I am trying the same mission (second last) the 12th time now, in my YAK-1.

It seems the A.I. now shoots with railguns. I can not finish this mission because i dont survive anymore.

Edited September 15, 2022 by PaladinX

[stburr91]

2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Can't say for sure if this is the case, but it could be a more realistic pilot damage model combined with less realistic AI gunnery skills.   In my 30 years around flight sims AI has always been to a greater or lesser degree "fly bad shoot good".

 

I was only talking about the pilot damage model, having just started playing the Great Battles series, I can't speak about the AI accuracy from a standpoint of any personal experience. 

 

With that said, every experienced player has unrealistically high gunnery skills, so I'm not sure the AI set to the highest difficulty having similar unrealistic gunnery skills is necessarily a bad thing.  

[Gunfreak]

27 minutes ago, stburr91 said:

 

I was only talking about the pilot damage model, having just started playing the Great Battles series, I can't speak about the AI accuracy from a standpoint of any personal experience. 

 

With that said, every experienced player has unrealistically high gunnery skills, so I'm not sure the AI set to the highest difficulty having similar unrealistic gunnery skills is necessarily a bad thing.  

 

Well it is if you want the simulator to be a simulator. Multiplayer is Multiplayer. You can't control what humans do. It has its own meta.

But Singleplayer should be kept as realistic as possible. 

I like that the AI now fight harder (both against you and other AI)  but the nano second snapshot that now happen regularly is a tiresome. 

[stburr91]

22 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

 

Well it is if you want the simulator to be a simulator. Multiplayer is Multiplayer. You can't control what humans do. It has its own meta.

But Singleplayer should be kept as realistic as possible. 

I like that the AI now fight harder (both against you and other AI)  but the nano second snapshot that now happen regularly is a tiresome. 

 

My point was that there's isn't much that's realistic about the extremely high gunnery skills of the experienced players. With so many players able to become an Ace, or even a double Ace in a single mission, there's nothing realistic about that, so having AI that can occasionally shoot down the experienced players isn't a bad thing, even if it's with extremely accurate shooting on the AI's part. 

 

Again, I'm new to the GB series, and in fact new to flight sims in general, but I see the AI being able to be a threat to the player as a good thing. With that said, I'm all for the players to customize the difficulty settings to suit their preferences. I don't know if there is a slider to set the AI's accuracy, but if not, it would be a nice addition.     

Edited September 15, 2022 by stburr91

[Hook_Echo]

There is a great mod called "AI Gunnery" in the mods section of the forum. Ace pilots will shoot very accurately from close range and lesser skilled pilots will shoot less accurately and open up at longer ranges. This results in experienced AI pilots killing you in an instant if you don't realize they are on your tail and rookie pilots will shoot from a distance giving you the chance to maneuver and survive. Rookie pilots will also use a lot of their ammo per kill, just like us when starting out. Give it a try, it really makes the AI seem more human.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/78388-ai-gunnery-mod/

[the_emperor]

Since we are shooting with 20mm HE rounds and .50 cals at each other while sitting in a tin can, I think the current “DM” for the pilots is quite convincing. Every bandit on your six or blind spot it is a possible death sentence, I really like that. Reminds you to always watch your six and never fly in a straight line

[Noisemaker]

I just got taken out by a 190 which I thought was no way a threat, as he was 1Km below me, as I chased another.  Nope, pulled up, and pilot sniped me in one shot.

[Knarley-Bob]

That "Golden Bullet" really sucks, don't it?

[sevenless]

21 hours ago, stburr91 said:

 

Yes, they changed the pilot damage model to be more realistic. Whether, or not more realistic is more fun or not is another matter. 

 

More realistic. If you now get punctured by bullets you´re dead.

 

26. Aircraft DM: the several years old ‘crew health cheat’ (they required four point-blank 7.62 bullets in the torso or two in the head to be killed) has been removed. Now their ability to sustain damage is much more close to reality.

[RyanR]

I would hazard to bet that the problem isn't the DM or the enemy AI sharpshooting, but rather that friendly AI not following through.

 

I've noticed this several times now: two bad guys, one bad guy has three friendlies on his tail, you have angle on the other unfriendly, so you go for him. Then you die. Pause the game, and see that the friendlies had simply given up the chase on the bandit you thought they had covered.

 

-Ryan

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Noisemaker said:

I just got taken out by a 190 which I thought was no way a threat, as he was 1Km below me, as I chased another.  Nope, pulled up, and pilot sniped me in one shot.

 

Do you have a track file?

[MAJ_stug41]

People dont immediately die when shot, unless their brain is gone. I think what makes being 'pilot sniped' so upsetting is that it is completely sudden. Unless the head is hit, the player should get a chance to see the life fade out if them, screen darken and strength to control inputs decrease, perhaps even try to bail out. The end result would be the same, still dying, but it wont always be a shocking sudden spectator camera. 

[Hook_Echo]

If you get hit by a 50 cal or a 20 mil, you're gonna have a bad time.

[BlitzPig_EL]

2 hours ago, stburr91 said:

 

My point was that there's isn't much that's realistic about the extremely high gunnery skills of the experienced players.

 

One thing you should bear in mind is that there are large numbers of players that have over twenty years of experience in combat flight sims.  These experienced players have more combat "seat time" than any real military pilot in the history of aviation.  Is it any wonder that they have become so good at it?  Couple all that experience with not having any fear of dying and well, I hope you begin to get the picture.

 

The new, more realistic pilot damage model may be a help as it will force players to be more considered in their actions.

[Guest deleted@83466]

53 minutes ago, stug41 said:

People dont immediately die when shot, unless their brain is gone. I think what makes being 'pilot sniped' so upsetting is that it is completely sudden. Unless the head is hit, the player should get a chance to see the life fade out if them, screen darken and strength to control inputs decrease, perhaps even try to bail out. The end result would be the same, still dying, but it wont always be a shocking sudden spectator camera. 

Back in 1990 or so, there was the original Red Baron, by Dynamix.  I seem to recall that this did have a progressive “bleed to death” model, so not all death was instant.  If you found yourself in that situation the only thing to do then was try to get your plane back on the ground, in which case you might survive.  The idea has some merit.

[stburr91]

21 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

One thing you should bear in mind is that there are large numbers of players that have over twenty years of experience in combat flight sims.  These experienced players have more combat "seat time" than any real military pilot in the history of aviation.  Is it any wonder that they have become so good at it?  Couple all that experience with not having any fear of dying and well, I hope you begin to get the picture.

 

The new, more realistic pilot damage model may be a help as it will force players to be more considered in their actions.

 

Yes, that was my point, many of the players have completely unrealistic piloting/gunnery skills, skills that could never be achieved in reality, skills that took many thousands of virtual deaths to achieve. So with such unrealistic player skill, having "unrealistic" AI to compete against isn't a bad thing. 

[Guest]

An "improved pilot DM" would be fine if it wasn't corrupted by the AI always aiming for said pilot. Nobody in real life aimed for anything more or less than the entire bloody plane and the AI should be programmed likewise.

[Noisemaker]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Do you have a track file?

No, I don't generally record, as I'm not a Youtuber.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, stug41 said:

People dont immediately die when shot, unless their brain is gone.

 

Nah, sorry, gonna disagree here. If you take a high caliber/high explosive round to pretty much anywhere from your torso upwards, especially in a confined space, you're finished. It wouldn't matter if you bled out and died in the next 30 seconds or next 30 minutes. Spending a few months in a combat support hospital in Iraq in 2005 brought home that reality really quick.

[Stonehouse]

Part of the issue is the engagement ranges in the stock game. Ace pilots open fire at 800 m and they are accurate. Essentially the representation of an Ace currently is a crack marksman who fires at long distances. On the other hand, a novice pilot will hold their fire until 400m but then shoot badly although if they are closing on the target, they will quickly get so close that it doesn't matter how badly they shoot as they can't really miss damaging you. Other skill levels sit in between. Normal is 500m and High is 600m.  I have not so far found the bot files for pilots that include the skill levels in terms of accuracy, but I would assume they follow a similar scheme to all other bots where higher level of skill has less dispersion and higher accuracy and low skill the opposite. The range the high skill is employed at is the deal breaker, I think. Everything I have ever read in references or biographies always have said novices misjudged distance and opened fire too far away and so while they might pepper a target they mostly failed to get in a lethal burst and usually it was they used a lot of ammo and the target obligingly made it easy for some reason (their own inexperience or panic or previous damage/malfunction) to damage the aircraft to the point it would not fly over a number of long bursts.  While experienced pilots would fire lethally at close range usually consuming little ammo. Currently in game you see the opposite unless mods are used.  So with that in mind reducing the pilot hit points will probably see more pk's at seemingly impossible distances unless the shot is coming from dead astern where seat armour might help or perhaps front on if the engine blocks the shots.

[ACG_Cass]

3 hours ago, stug41 said:

People dont immediately die when shot, unless their brain is gone. I think what makes being 'pilot sniped' so upsetting is that it is completely sudden. Unless the head is hit, the player should get a chance to see the life fade out if them, screen darken and strength to control inputs decrease, perhaps even try to bail out. The end result would be the same, still dying, but it wont always be a shocking sudden spectator camera. 

I actually would really like to see something like this implemented. The black screen or sudden cut to 3rd person isn't a great experience

[Guest deleted@83466]

Luke, the guy is just asking to occasionally have a couple seconds to say goodbye to virtual mom, virtual country, and apple piie, and blame his wingman…is that too much to ask??  I mean, they say Richthofen had about 20 seconds to probably say “aw s&$t, this sucks”, but Saburo Sakai flew 900 miles after being shot in head, and he survived. He could have faded out and died at any time.   So seriously, I think that’s all Stug41 was basically saying.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by SeaSerpent