Is the FW-190 Still Viable as a Fighter Post 5.001?

[percydanvers]

 

Hardly scientific I know, but looks like with the various armament changes in 5.001 these guys are just getting massacred right now. The A-6 which used to score pretty high is barely staying about 1.0 K/D.  Even the Dora's looking a little shabby right now, and the A-8's numbers are just abysmal. Using Combat Box's stats here since Finnish's didn't feature enough engagements with these types to draw any conclusions.

 

Note: I'm not saying how things should be, I don't care about "balance" or anything like that, just curious what peoples' thoughts are as to what is effective and not effective to use in MP right now. 

 

[-SF-Disarray]

The thing is, Allied players were told for 2 years that everything was fine and we just had to learn to aim better. So we did. For 2 whole years. Now that we have guns that actually work well, you are seeing the results of our training. Also with the toned down HE effects from small caliber guns the late model German rides have lost some of their teeth. So... I guess... Aim harder.

[percydanvers]

1 minute ago, -SF-Disarray said:

The thing is, Allied players were told for 2 years that everything was fine and we just had to learn to aim better. So we did. For 2 whole years. Now that we have guns that actually work well, you are seeing the results of our training. Also with the toned down HE effects from small caliber guns the late model German rides have lost some of their teeth. So... I guess... Aim harder.

 

Like I say I'm not complaining, just rethinking strategies here. 

[354thFG_Rails]

I think you’ll see adjustments by players going forward. I’m sure a lot of it is old habits from being able to take a fighter out of the fight with 1 shot. Now that some aircraft are bit tougher and the ballistics are different strategies will change. It’s still a very formidable plane to encounter but I think now you might see more historical tactics being used than what was going on before. Which was pull hard to get that one hit that you needed. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by 86th_Rails

[357th_KW]

Over the last two years, I’ve seen players flying Axis start flying in some really ridiculous ways - cruising around at low altitude, getting bounced and then relying on surviving that bounce without any serious damage and then scoring a 1-2 hit kill on the enemy after they overshoot.  People would literally fly around practicing this strategy on Berloga.  And I’m still seeing folks take a bunch of damage, and then try to keep fighting instead of disengaging and going home, even when the opportunity is wide open due to other teammates in the fight.  There’s a lot of folks just using awful tactics that never should have been viable, and simply don’t work anymore.

 

All that said, a P-51, Spit XIV or Tempest should dominate a 190A - they have a huge performance advantage, and they can outturn the 190.

[=621=Samikatz]

I think it will be natural for the BoN aircraft like the A-6 to trend downwards quite hard. My assumption is it's mostly the people who are really into the sim to pick up the expansion pre-orders and get early access to the planes, but now that the full thing is out far more people will have their hands on it and be flying it

 

 

[percydanvers]

5 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

I think it will be natural for the BoN aircraft like the A-6 to trend downwards quite hard. My assumption is it's mostly the people who are really into the sim to pick up the expansion pre-orders and get early access to the planes, but now that the full thing is out far more people will have their hands on it and be flying it

 

 

 

Probably true. The A-6 and G-6 late were both very strong performers in the past two years, and the P-51B has pretty consistently outperformed the D on, I think, the same basis. In the same way I think the Spitfire IX is a bit statistically underrepresented because it's so popular that the impact of its most experienced pilots is proportionally smaller. 

11 minutes ago, 357th_KW said:

All that said, a P-51, Spit XIV or Tempest should dominate a 190A - they have a huge performance advantage, and they can outturn the 190.

 

That's why I'm thinking the 190 kind of isn't viable anymore. It really doesn't have anything to work with against those kinds of opponents. The 109 at least has some tricks up its sleeve in terms of maneuvering.

[CountZero]

its 3 days of new DM out of 12 in that data, i would wait for longer time to see how things changed.

how do you know data you see is not human vs human more in last 3 days compared to human vs ai mostly before when server was almost empty...

also how do you know what changed , where is data before 9th and after only days from when patch 5 come out, its just pointles what you show as evidance as it dosent destinguish from before and after in thouse stats.

VP was constantly populated, so comparing its stats from august to its stats when october ends is what will show you what is effect of new DM on behavior of axis players, 9 month is spoiled as its mixed before and after.

41 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

The thing is, Allied players were told for 2 years that everything was fine and we just had to learn to aim better. So we did. For 2 whole years. Now that we have guns that actually work well, you are seeing the results of our training. Also with the toned down HE effects from small caliber guns the late model German rides have lost some of their teeth. So... I guess... Aim harder.

lol yes, if change is as drastic as op makes it be, they will have to learn how to aim harder when 1x13mm HE is no longer finishing blow ?

 

[Denum]

I've been using the 190A8 and 109G6L with the 30mm. 

 

I rarely need a second pass on people. I think it's great. 

[jollyjack]

31 minutes ago, percydanvers said:

That's why I'm thinking the 190 kind of isn't viable anymore. It really doesn't have anything to work with against those kinds of opponents ...

 

Must be that they want you to buy you new collector planes ?

Edited September 12, 2022 by jollyjack

[percydanvers]

Just now, jollyjack said:

 

Must be that they want to buy you new collector planes ?

 

Well I kind of doubt that since there aren't any super powerful axis collector planes slated for release. The only axis plane at all that's publicly in dev is the IAR, which would probably just get butchered in this lineup.

[VuIture]

Yes its still a viable fighter. Like any plane in the game its how you use it. 

[JLean]

Interesting topic since BON I have been mainly flying with Fw190A-6 and I have been contributing this loss ratio personally  

My toughts here are that Fw 190A requires above average skills and patience for pilot survival. Especially important is the aimin skill first pass has to be succesful.

For me with average (or below average) skills and with minimal patience I am always dead if the first pass is not success. I easily  run out of energy and with Fw190A-5/6 you cannot outrun any allied post 1943 plane you can outurn only P-47. With Bf 109G-6 I can still time to time be successful in turning fight but with Fw 190-A5/6 never. 

 

In Fw190A -8 boost gives you more power speed so change to run away is a bit better. 

 

 JLean

 

 

[VuIture]

Tactics for survival have never been so critical for an axis flyer as they are now with the BoN plane set and rightfully so. 

[CountZero]

5 minutes ago, JG3_Megla said:

Tactics for survival have never been so critical for an axis flyer as they are now with the BoN plane set and rightfully so. 

But map will be used earlyer channel battles where 109f4 and 190a3 had uper hand vs hurri and spitV for example.

So server will have to balance type of missions to avoid getting boring like before where every map was tempest vs K4s no mather what was tryed. If you plan to have west only server then you cant have every mission same or similar planset, even if in small numbers, there needs to be distinct differance betwen 41 42 43 44 map base mission to keep ppl interested in long run.

[Alexmarine]

Wouldn't be surprised if some of those losses are 190s being employed in the strike role simply getting bounced while carrying their attacks... I surely contributed to those losses going up... With my 190 going down in flames 

[VuIture]

9 minutes ago, CountZero said:

But map will be used earlyer channel battles where 109f4 and 190a3 had uper hand vs hurri and spitV for example.

So server will have to balance type of missions to avoid getting boring like before where every map was tempest vs K4s no mather what was tryed. If you plan to have west only server then you cant have every mission same or similar planset, even if in small numbers, there needs to be distinct differance betwen 41 42 43 44 map base mission to keep ppl interested in long run.

 

What was interesting was seeing how much the cloud density effected the game play.  No clouds there where many mid altitude fir balls over the channel with many planes.  Heavy clouds most of the fighting seems to take place on the deck by the french coast and was in waves. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

In the past I never had any qualms about going it alone in a German bird, but was always leery of going it alone in most of the .50's equipped birds, it was one good punch and lights out from cannons.  Not so flying German which could take a ton of scattered spray, sans those nasty cannoned Spitfires, but most of those Spit guys can't shoot accurate beyond point blank, so welcome to our world.  Tactics, tactics, tactics, like we were, so now are you when caught without team support.

[oc2209]

3 hours ago, percydanvers said:

 

 Even the Dora's looking a little shabby right now, and the A-8's numbers are just abysmal.

 

 

To be frank, I've always thought the A-8 was a piece of sh**. It was, long before this update, by far my least favorite A series to fly.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a fine attack plane. But a pure dogfighter it isn't. Especially against what the Allies could put up circa 1944.

 

The A series suffered from bloat almost worse (in terms of relative performance degradation) than the 109, despite the latter being far more infamous/criticized for it.

 

Even the D series isn't a huge leap forward, but rather just the 190 family's way of playing catch up--regaining some of the performance advantages it gradually lost from 1941 to 1944--with contemporary fighters like the Tempest and P-51.

 

This is all the more reason we need the Ta-152 in the sim: so we can have a Focke Wulf that's the very pinnacle of the entire series' design ethos, rather than the D's half-measures. I'm not saying it's needed from a multiplayer balance perspective (which I personally have no stake in); but rather from an engineering connoisseur's needs. I want to see these designs from start to finish (as much as possible, anyway), as they evolve to a final point.

 

Likewise, with the Russian 12.7mm HE finally being reduced in hitting power, the heavier armament of the Yak-3, Yak-9U, and La-7 are much needed on the Russian side of things. We're not getting the full picture of many of these designs until we get these 'end of the line' variants.

 

The basic Yak-9 is equivalent to the 190D: a mid-point in the Yak's evolution. Not the end point. Same for the La-5 versus the La-7.

[Drum]

Those stats are totally out of context from what's been happing on the Box since BoN release.  The German side has been mostly outnumbered 2-1, yet the German side has won 50 missions to the Allied 17 missions as of this posting.  That's 33 more wins achieved having to go in low disadvantaged with a heavy numbers deficit, pretty good planes IMO.  ?

 

[FTC_DerSheriff]

Finnish is hardly a indicator for any skill measure. Its a whack-a-mole sandbox. Fun, but a very specific envoriment.

And besides, like the others said. nothing has changed since the patch which degrades the actual performance of these planes against the competion.

[FTC_DerSheriff]

1 minute ago, Motivated said:

 

So you mean to tell me vulching isn't a measure of skill? /s

that and the constant feeding of furballs, the lack of any will to safe ones life, the flap dropping at the first sign of combat and the closeness of airfields.

There is not one server with a similar low skill ceiling.

[CountZero]

45 minutes ago, FTC_DerSheriff said:

Finnish is hardly a indicator for any skill measure. Its a whack-a-mole sandbox. Fun, but a very specific envoriment.

And besides, like the others said. nothing has changed since the patch which degrades the actual performance of these planes against the competion.

its berloga + , ppl know that , fast mindless DF with moving fronts, but if hes coming with pictures of stats, then VP is only place where he can see full picture, stats from august on onld patch, and full month with stats in october with new patch.  If CB was popular in august, then he can comare that to CB in october, but something tells me that number of players on CB in august and CB in october will be drasticly differant , mutch more active in october if they focus on new map, and that would have effect on stats not only new DM.

Just showing stats from september will not work as its old and new DM, low pop vs high pop and so on... out of 3 popular servers VP is only one that will probably have same population in august and october so its good base for looking for differance.

[Barnacles]

23 hours ago, percydanvers said:

 

Hardly scientific I know, but looks like with the various armament changes in 5.001 these guys are just getting massacred right now. The A-6 which used to score pretty high is barely staying about 1.0 K/D.  Even the Dora's looking a little shabby right now, and the A-8's numbers are just abysmal. Using Combat Box's stats here since Finnish's didn't feature enough engagements with these types to draw any conclusions.

 

Note: I'm not saying how things should be, I don't care about "balance" or anything like that, just curious what peoples' thoughts are as to what is effective and not effective to use in MP right now. 

 

One thing with combat Box, the maps featured predominantly since the update have had Antons as the primary ground attacker. That hurts stats a fair bit. 

18 hours ago, Drum said:

Those stats are totally out of context from what's been happing on the Box since BoN release.  The German side has been mostly outnumbered 2-1, yet the German side has won 50 missions to the Allied 17 missions as of this posting.  That's 33 more wins achieved having to go in low disadvantaged with a heavy numbers deficit, pretty good planes IMO.  ?

 

Yeah about that. I think I may have messed up the logic in the map I made because the server's awarded a win to axis several times when allied hit more targets. 

[percydanvers]

20 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

To be frank, I've always thought the A-8 was a piece of sh**. It was, long before this update, by far my least favorite A series to fly.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a fine attack plane. But a pure dogfighter it isn't. Especially against what the Allies could put up circa 1944.

 

The A series suffered from bloat almost worse (in terms of relative performance degradation) than the 109, despite the latter being far more infamous/criticized for it.

 

Even the D series isn't a huge leap forward, but rather just the 190 family's way of playing catch up--regaining some of the performance advantages it gradually lost from 1941 to 1944--with contemporary fighters like the Tempest and P-51.

 

This is all the more reason we need the Ta-152 in the sim: so we can have a Focke Wulf that's the very pinnacle of the entire series' design ethos, rather than the D's half-measures. I'm not saying it's needed from a multiplayer balance perspective (which I personally have no stake in); but rather from an engineering connoisseur's needs. I want to see these designs from start to finish (as much as possible, anyway), as they evolve to a final point.

 

Likewise, with the Russian 12.7mm HE finally being reduced in hitting power, the heavier armament of the Yak-3, Yak-9U, and La-7 are much needed on the Russian side of things. We're not getting the full picture of many of these designs until we get these 'end of the line' variants.

 

The basic Yak-9 is equivalent to the 190D: a mid-point in the Yak's evolution. Not the end point. Same for the La-5 versus the La-7.

 

I have to agree. It's always seemed odd to me that people always talk about how heavy the G-6 and later 109s were, but rarely do they mention how sluggish the Fw-190As had become by the A-8. I'd really love a Ta-152, just to see the final culmination of the basic 190 design. The fact that we're getting the bubble canopy spitfire xiv suggests to me that it's not totally impossible we'd get a Ta-152. Both those planes were only in action in the very end of the war. 

 

1 hour ago, Barnacles said:

One thing with combat Box, the maps featured predominantly since the update have had Antons as the primary ground attacker. That hurts stats a fair bit. 

Yeah about that. I think I may have messed up the logic in the map I made because the server's awarded a win to axis several times when allied hit more targets. 

 

That is definitely an important factor.

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, percydanvers said:

The fact that we're getting the bubble canopy spitfire xiv suggests to me that it's not totally impossible we'd get a Ta-152. Both those planes were only in action in the very end of the war.

 

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. The teardrop Spit opens the door for any other 'entered the war only weeks before VE day' planes. 

 

The Ta-152H is exciting to me personally, because it has the Focke Wulf's superb 20mm cannon configuration in the wing roots (along with the large ammo capacity therein), and it adds a 109-esque 30mm to the engine mount, and it deletes the cumbersome outboard 20mm from the wings. Which means it not only has a unique armament, but the most powerful nose-concentrated armament in the entire war. For that reason alone, it'd be a treat to fly.

 

Beyond that, without the regular Fw-190's stubby wings, it'd also turn better and be more stable during some maneuvers, etc. Will probably lose the crispness of roll, but not entirely.

 

Anyway, it'd finally give us an alternative to the 109/190 split. Being such a major alteration of the 190 design, the Ta-152 would effectively be the first new German piston fighter in the sim. Not counting the twin-engine outings; the 410 barely being considered a fighter, even a heavy one.

[[LeLv34]Lykurgos88]

27 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

most powerful nose-concentrated armament in the entire war. For that reason alone, it'd be a treat to fly.

I really hate to be that guy, but isn't Me-262's 4x mk108 more powerful nose armament? Or some some crazy Me-410 configurations like 6x 20mm + 2x 13mm OR 2x30mm 2x20mm 2x13mm

 

Sorry ?

 

However: I do love the idea of Ta-152H! I'm just worried that there is not enough documentation about it that has survived. Even the the real production numbers are a total mystery.

[butcherbird88]

I would really like to see the 190 A9 in this simulation

équipé du moteur BMW801f en option bien sur

[MAJ_stug41]

Ta152 wont offer any advantages unless above 7km, and what reason is there to be up there? No big bombers.

D9 has a gigantic displacement engine, high rpms for the size, and most importantly mw50 to allow it to tolerate much higher pressure. D9 has an edge on nearly all allied fighters when the mw50 is used, up to 5km or so.

[percydanvers]

58 minutes ago, stug41 said:

Ta152 wont offer any advantages unless above 7km, and what reason is there to be up there? No big bombers.

D9 has a gigantic displacement engine, high rpms for the size, and most importantly mw50 to allow it to tolerate much higher pressure. D9 has an edge on nearly all allied fighters when the mw50 is used, up to 5km or so.

 

It's a very good fighter, and I think it can offer a strong fight to the best allied planes, but I don't think I'd say it has an edge on the Tempest or a Griffon Spitfire. 

[JG27*PapaFly]

4 hours ago, stug41 said:

Ta152 wont offer any advantages unless above 7km, and what reason is there to be up there? No big bombers.

D9 has a gigantic displacement engine, high rpms for the size, and most importantly mw50 to allow it to tolerate much higher pressure. D9 has an edge on nearly all allied fighters when the mw50 is used, up to 5km or so.

It had more powerful guns and better turn rate than the D9, at all altitudes. Very decent climb and sustained turn performance. The high aspect wings reduced it's induced drag, which helped in many flight regimes. It also outturned the Tempest. I liked it a lot in the old game.

[Luftschiff]

Was it ever a viable fighter against Pee-fiddys and various late-war british weather phenomena?

[Alexmarine]

10 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

Was it ever a viable fighter against Pee-fiddys and various late-war british weather phenomena?

 

Usual case of: Too little, too late

[VuIture]

5 hours ago, stug41 said:

Ta152 wont offer any advantages unless above 7km, and what reason is there to be up there? No big bombers.

D9 has a gigantic displacement engine, high rpms for the size, and most importantly mw50 to allow it to tolerate much higher pressure. D9 has an edge on nearly all allied fighters when the mw50 is used, up to 5km or so.

Not all fighting takes place on the deck and you need to go high to generate energy to fight at 5k.  The 109g 6 and 14 and 190a's run and sound like out of tune Volkswagen beetle over 5k. Not saying the Ta is necessary but an DB605/AS or ASM engine would be sensible solution.

[CountZero]

5 hours ago, stug41 said:

Ta152 wont offer any advantages unless above 7km, and what reason is there to be up there? No big bombers.

D9 has a gigantic displacement engine, high rpms for the size, and most importantly mw50 to allow it to tolerate much higher pressure. D9 has an edge on nearly all allied fighters when the mw50 is used, up to 5km or so.

Compared to other Fw in game it is big improvment on any alt, long wing ta can outturn anything exept spits for late war set.

But i dont expect it to be added in game any time sone with DLC it can have it, and it would not fit as collector airplane on any map in game now.

[oc2209]

23 hours ago, [LeLv34]Lykurgos88 said:

I really hate to be that guy, but isn't Me-262's 4x mk108 more powerful nose armament? Or some some crazy Me-410 configurations like 6x 20mm + 2x 13mm OR 2x30mm 2x20mm 2x13mm

 

I meant among fighters.

 

A 262 and a 410 aren't agile in dogfighting terms, but having a heavy all-cannon armament in the nose of a single engine fighter--that would be exceptional.

 

And unlike the La-7, variants of which can have 3x20mm in the nose, the Ta-152 would carry oodles of spare ammo.

 

That being said, an La-7 with 3x20s would still be pretty formidable. There also might be a Yak-9U variant that had some combination of multiple cannons, but I'd have to check.

[oc2209]

Continuing from my previous post, I checked, and the Yak-9UT had 2x20mm guns with 120 rpg, in lieu of the usual 12.7mm. The heavy engine-mounted cannon was either a 37mm or 23mm, but only the latter is mentioned as actually having seen combat (well into 1945). There is mention of testing with the 37mm/20mm combination, but no explicit combat record or date of entry, which implies to me that it didn't happen before war's end.

 

The Yak-9UT could also mount a 45mm cannon, but the 20mm secondary armament had to be deleted.

 

Therefore, the 23mm combo is the one we'd likely get. The extra punch of the 23mm would be nice, but still not as dramatic as the Ta-152's 30mm.

 

Nevertheless, the Yak-9UT could definitely make an appearance in the sim.

[RAY-EU]

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by RAY-EU
Fire range DM & also very more far away rockets in reality + 10 times so far than IL2 : … seems 15mm-~20mm-~30mm DM 1/7 range and velocity than in reality.

[KevPBur]

I'm currently attempting a career over the channel to Normandy in a P51B.

Everytime we met 109G's the ai do pretty well and the fight is over in 1 minute with most of my flight intact.

 

If we meet 190-A6's again all over in 1 minute but i am the only guy alive and all the enamy remain chasing me over the channel.

 

I'd say the 190 is very potent plus you really need sustained hits to shoot one down with a P51B.

[percydanvers]

17 hours ago, KevPBur said:

I'm currently attempting a career over the channel to Normandy in a P51B.

Everytime we met 109G's the ai do pretty well and the fight is over in 1 minute with most of my flight intact.

 

If we meet 190-A6's again all over in 1 minute but i am the only guy alive and all the enamy remain chasing me over the channel.

 

I'd say the 190 is very potent plus you really need sustained hits to shoot one down with a P51B.

I’ve also noticed the AI seems to just plain kick ass with the Fw-190. I’m not sure quite why this is, but the pattern is definitely observable. I’m currently doing a career with I./JG 26 and after a few weeks most of the pilots have double digit scores and there has been like one guy shot down the whole time. 

 

It’s an interesting reversal from DCS where the AI is less than useless with the 190 and deadly with a 109.