MG 131 needs nerf. HE causes way too much drag.

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

Drag and lift penalties from MG131 hits are way too high. MG131 HE rounds used HE to compensate for the rounds marked lack of kinetic energy. There just isn't enough explosive to cause the huge drag penalties you get from it. MG 131  is a ballistically inferior .50 BMG. .50 BMG has 10,000+ foot pounds  of energy at the muzzle usually with a ballistic coefficient(numerical representation of its aerodynamics) greater than 1. At 600 yards (roughly 630 meters) it still has 6000 + foot pounds of energy. HE loadings for the 131 proved poor performers and if anything the 13mm proved to have good penetration due entirely to its high sectional density (large mass of the projectile in a linear form). It was a good hole puncher and little else, although much more effective at range than the 8mm at this. .50BMG had (and still has) great sectional density as well as excellent muzzle energy meaning it's flat shooting and does excellent damage against machinery even at ranges of 500 meters. If the 13mm was a good round it would still be in circulation today. It hasn't been used since WW2. However, .50BMG is still in wide spread use today as well as 12.7x108mm (Russian .50 BMG. for reference .50BMG is 12.7x99mm). I wonder why that is?

 

While I couldn't find any ballistic coefficient for the 13x64mm here are two pictures which clearly illustrate the difference in aerodynamics between the two rounds. 13mm is stubby and mostly projectile which means less propellant and lower energy. 13mm muzzle velocity is around 2500 feet per second while the .50 BMG is around 2800 feet per second. However the 13mm also a wider and more blunt projectile which hurts its ballistic coefficient and so it loses energy more rapidly than the .50BMG. There's also not much room for grenade level amounts of HE filler.

 

In short, as far as terminal ballistics (actual damage caused from a hit) 13mm should be less effective or at best just as effective (or not) as .50 BMG.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

[Mtnbiker1998]

13mm HE being overpowered has been an issue since the revised damage model came out, however long ago that was, and has been discussed pretty heavily.

 

That being said, we're probably only a few days away from Normandy release and the new revised DM, so fingers crossed this gets addressed along with the longstanding AP issues.

[CountZero]

its HE that needs nerfing, 131 gun is ok

[gimpy117]

3 hours ago, CountZero said:

its HE that needs nerfing, 131 gun is ok

yes, HE filler is out of control. 

[Eisenfaustus]

5 hours ago, CountZero said:

its HE that needs nerfing, 131 gun is ok

20mm mineshells (mg151/20 and mgffm) behave according to expectations. 30mm mineshells seem even to underperform (which might also be partly due to the astonishing abilities of the ai to keep damaged planes aflight)

 

On the other hand mineshells seem to overperform in strafing attacks as they were pure a2a rounds. 
 

But as suggested we should wait for the new DM that’s already in the launchtubes to see where we are heading. 

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

I can get with all of this, so long as it IS FIXED. Same goes for the .50 cals.

 

[the_emperor]

1 hour ago, Eisenfaustus said:

On the other hand mineshells seem to overperform in strafing attacks as they were pure a2a rounds. 

 

Actually the mineshell without self destruct was recommended for strafing (L.Dv.4000/10):

 

 

9 hours ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

HE loadings for the 131 proved poor performers and if anything the 13mm proved to have good penetration due entirely to its high sectional density (large mass of the projectile in a linear form)

The 13mm He-round did indead not carry much explosive ~1.17g PETN. since PETN lacks in incendiary performance they added some Thermite (0.9g PETN & 0.3g Thermite).

But finally the HE Round was dropped in favour of the pure Incendiary round:

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

I can agree with this, however the biggest problem is with the amount of drag and lift penalty\damage incurred, air to air (no fire involved) from 13mm in the game.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

[FTC_DerSheriff]

1 hour ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

I can agree with this, however the biggest problem is with the amount of drag and lift penalty\damage incurred, air to air (no fire involved) from 13mm in the game.

 

just wait for the next update to drop. I recommend not to waste energy on this now.

[the_emperor]

just because it fits the topic:

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/FAF/pages/Finnish-armour-13mm-machine-gun-ammunition-is-carried-to-Bf-109G6-Lappeenranta-Finland-30th-Jun-1944-01.html

Edited September 6, 2022 by the_emperor

[FTC_DerSheriff]

What you do you think now about the 13mm? Want to hear opinions.

[the_emperor]

3 hours ago, FTC_DerSheriff said:

What you do you think now about the 13mm? Want to hear opinions.

 

it does feel a bit toned down. But that is highly subjective from my side. I did not do any quantitative testings, its just my feeling.

[Hitcher]

It's now slightly more effective than .50 cal, which is what I expected from a round with similar overall energy output, takes roughly 60 HE hits to max aero damage a wing section 

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

I haven't done any good testing but from the few quick missions I did it is definitely better but is still more effective than it should be from what I could tell. As far as energy output the .50 outclasses the 13mm, especially at range. .50 was just a better cartridge for this application. All that being said the .50's definitely work better and alongside the new DM I think the game is in a very good place now and 13mm performance is not a big issue as it was before. I got hit on Friday but some and was still able to maintain airspeed which was the biggest issue with it before. A few hits would make planes very hard to fly in combat and even if you could, you lost so much speed that you were usually waiting to be finished if someone didn't come to help. I'm not sure if this is still the case or not but it didn't seem to be. I'm hoping they continue to improve on all the mechanical aspects of the game and am looking forward to the visual damage thing that prints bullet holes on planes to be applied to the other aircraft.