Singleplayer improvements - When will we get them?

[Corralandy120000]

I thought for a long time whether to write this post and today I decided to do so. As a life-time single player pilot of the Il2 series, I am a die-hard fan and for a long time I have several questions. When will we see more changes and improvements in the single player? Here are a few small questions to which I would like to know the answer.

 

First of all, when will the wingmen start following the rules of combat, listen to orders and will stop runing around like a bunch of crazy lone wolves? This really needs to improve. They should fight in pairs (spaking of LW, which I fly for most often) and not everyone on their own. Even the old 1946 managed this way, way better. The big problem is that the wingmen will attack targets that I am already attacking. And I finally end up shot down by my own wingmen... Today it happened to me 8 (!!!!) times (probably that's why I decided to finally formulate my questions).

 

This also leads to another big (if not the biggest) problem of singleplayer of the BoX series. Orders, orders, and more orders. I miss orders like controlling individual wingmen one by one, assigning which targets to attack (figters, bombers), the possibility to order one pair to attack bombers and additional wingmen to cover me or attack fighters, etc. And I'm not talking about such a simple thing as 'check your six' option. This is necessary if, like me, you want to fly 109s with a historically correct headrest. Another thing is the ability to get a vector home or a vector to the enemy from ground control. Also, wingmen should report if they spot the enemy and not only the direction, and I think the standard was to report the approximate height as well. Ground control (forward observers) should  report the direction and height of observed enemies too.

 

The last thing that comes to my mind right now is just a small detail that has been spoiling my immersion for a long time. Tactical aircraft numbers and designations for AI. I think that after all the new models, skins and maps, we would deserve something that was a completely standard part of 1946 and CloD. I have not mentioned the drop tanks, because I know that they are being worked on.

 

I don't want my contribution to sound ungrateful or too harsh, but the truth is that, in my opinion, the developers could finally start focusing on adjusting the little things that would shoot the potential of this project to places we haven't even dreamed of yet. Because I think this is exactly what il2 can do. 

I humbly hope that someone competent from the developers team will read my contribution and give me, and I assume many other SP oriented guys too, the long-awaited answers. I really thank you.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Corralandy120000

[Avimimus]

I agree that AI will probably end up being the area that could most do with improvement (including more realistic AI spotting, limits in attention i.e. only being able to look in one direction at once).

 

The additional comms might be more doable if people were content with them not being voiced... (which I'd prefer, as it'd make it more likely to be able to get them to call out and describe targets - as was the case in Aces over Europe and Aces of the Pacific, if I recall correctly). IMHO, having more realistic spotting limitations for enemy AI tanks, and having more crew assist with situational awareness within your own tank, would also be a huge improvement to TC and really improve game balance and realism.

[Raptorattacker]

32 minutes ago, Corralandy120000 said:

I humbly hope that someone competent from the developers team will read my contribution and give me, and I assume many other SP oriented guys too, the long-awaited answers. I really thank you.

I don't think you're being unreasonable. You don't get if you don't ask, do you? Some good points really.

[Corralandy120000]

AI situation awareness is completly another thing. Sometimes I feel that Ai pilots have at least 8 eyes with 20/20 vision ? And I also didn't mention that they can see through the clouds sometimes... 

 

I wouldn't mind at all if the additional comms weren't voiced, but I think that there are enough potencial voice actors on these forums. I would be very happy if I was a part of it, I even have a recording studio (i am a musician) ? (i am a musician)

 

As you said, many of the mentioned things can also be applied to TC.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Corralandy120000

[moustache]

no shame or regret to have, your complaint is quite justified: the AI have big lack or too bad assets that ruin the solo experience... they are omnipotent, but insolent

Edited August 16, 2022 by moustache

[Eisenfaustus]

I fullheartedly agree with you - proper group tactics in SP would be amazing! And yes, better comms are on my wichlist since I started playing this game. I really had high hopes with Bodenplatte as British and American Voices were added and thus a comms rework might have been possible (in my head at least ^^) However now it seems very unlikely to me.

 

But shouldn't 1C still have the rights für IL2 46 sound files? I'd be totally happy if they lazily copied the IL2 46 comms as long as AI behaved accordingly...

 

Tactical code - yes please. It is implemented with new aircraft but the update of older planes as well as the implementation into the career seems to progress quite slowly. As I fly without icons I have no way of telling which squadron mate is flying which plane unless I manually assign everybody another skin. And then it doesn't look as if we were part of the same unit...

[AEthelraedUnraed]

I agree that the tactical AI could be improved, and that at the beginning of a dogfight planes should use wingman tactics. But don't forget that, based on the accounts of pilots from all sides, often within minutes people would lose track of each other and a dogfight degenerated into an "every man for himself" fight not unlike what you see in game right now. A while ago I tried to fly Gambit's "Hell Hawks over the Bulge" campaign while trying to stick with my leader in the dogfights. I'll be damned if I succeeded for more than 1 minute in any of them?

 

3 hours ago, Corralandy120000 said:

Another thing is the ability to get a vector home or a vector to the enemy from ground control.

Please not, unless appropriate for that time and place. Bodenplatte, maybe, but definitely not for the earlier modules where there simply wasn't anyone on the ground tracking all the flights. Learn to read maps instead

 

3 hours ago, Corralandy120000 said:

Ground control (forward observers) should  report the direction and height of observed enemies too.

If properly configured by the mission writer, ground control already reports the direction and simplified height (basically just "higher" and "lower") of enemies.

 

34 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

It is implemented with new aircraft but the update of older planes as well as the implementation into the career seems to progress quite slowly.

A short while ago, LukeFF started a thread in the Career Assistance forum asking about the colours used for the squadron markings in Ju-52 Geschwader. I can only assume this has something to do with the Devs starting work on implementing the tactical markings on pre-BoN aircraft.

[Corralandy120000]

40 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

But shouldn't 1C still have the rights für IL2 46 sound files? I'd be totally happy if they lazily copied the IL2 46 comms as long as AI behaved accordingly...

 

 

I would be totally happy with similar solution  

42 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

I fullheartedly agree with you - proper group tactics in SP would be amazing! And yes, better comms are on my wichlist since I started playing this game. I really had high hopes with Bodenplatte as British and American Voices were added and thus a comms rework might have been possible (in my head at least ^^) However now it seems very unlikely to me.

 

 

I think the developers will have to deal with it. I'm waiting for it for 8 years now, since BoS.... I mean it will be such a disappointment for me if they don't. I think Il2 foremost SP sim, not MP. Don't get me wrong. I do love MP, but it ins't as immersive as SP experience. I think many of us bought the sim with this on mind.

[S10JlAbraxis]

Compleatly agree.  The reason I play BOX far more than DCS is since BOX has a far superior single player experience.  I am not interested in creating my own missions and rarely play MP.  However BOX is far from perfect as respects SP.  The enhancments you mention would make career mode a much better experience.  

[Motherbrain]

I agree, Il2s AI wingmen are probably one of the worst aspect of the sim.

 

If they aren't bumbling around aimlessly and uselessly, they are loosing control of thier planes or just falling out of formation and disapearing, never to be seen again.

 

About the only thing they seem to do right is fly with you in formation and drop thier bombs along with you when you are in a bomber in strait and level flight.

 

A "lookdown/shootdown" style menu where you aim at a land or air target and command your squad would be nice. Maybe some additional formation options like box formation. And wingmen that just DO WHAT YOU TELL THEM! ?

 

Oh you have three FWs on your tail? Too bad. Strafe that truck.

 

?

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Motherbrain

[PatrickAWlson]

Some thoughts on AI that might not be too hard to pull off

 

Change situational awareness based on AI level.  This might make actual bounces possible, especially on novice pilots.  This would (hopefully) be an injection into the transition from flying in formation to being aggressive.

 

Add some values to the plane that emulate pilot personality.  Aggressiveness is one example.  Based on this a pilot will be more or less inclined to turn for home.  This would (hopefully) be a quick injection into the RTB decision that would alter it based on this.  it might also be used to decide whether to engage superior numbers or not.

 

Per wingmen as suggested by the OP, I would be happy if a wingman would act the same as a "Cover" command at medium priority. On possible design is a wingman MCU that has an object (the wingman) and a target (the leader).  Such a design would allow 3 man formations with two wingmen as well as pairs.  I tried something like this once where I tried to change the formation and make every other plane cover a leader.  Didn't work.  

[Majpalmer]

RE: realism vs the AI. I've been reading Steinhoff's book on the Sicilian campaign. At one point he's leading the Stab flight of six, I think. They intercept some B-17s escorted by Spits. He dives on a Spit. He doesn't Check Six, assuming that at least one of the planes in his flight will cover the JG 77 commander. Next thing Steinhoff knew, he's looking for a spot to crash land. 

 

Let's say he wasn't happy, although he didn't say "Damned AI."

[Sybreed]

For 3 years I've asked the devs to look at how wingmen act during bombing missions when they're not in a strategic bomber (FW190A5, HS-129, any plane that will do the occasional bombing mission).

 

Let's say you have a mission to bomb a group concentration at a bridge.

 

Your 7 wingmen will all drop their bombs on a single AA unit and you'll have a "mission accomplished" prompt, completely ruining immersion and feeling the mission is a complete waste of time. The bridge, enemy tanks, all will be completely untouched.

 

Well, the devs actually made matters worse with time, and I've simply stopped playing IL-2 because I play mostly SP and I like to play fighter/bombers.

 

I seriously hope it'll be fixed with BoN, but it hasn't been fixed for 3 years, so my hopes are pretty low.

[PhilthySpud]

10 hours ago, Sybreed said:

Well, the devs actually made matters worse with time, and I've simply stopped playing IL-2 because I play mostly SP and I like to play fighter/bombers.

Fair dinkum mate - yeah, it’s not perfect but the game is a bloody sight better than it was when I started playing a couple of years ago, and it gets better every day. It’s also the closest thing around to flying In the Second World War. So just enjoy it for what it is and be patient - further improvements will come.

Edited August 17, 2022 by PhilthySpud

[ST_Catchov]

I just wish the devs would call Oleg and say RUOK? and can you fix the AI.

 

 

[blue_max]

I agree there needs to be some polish to the SP experience. I kind of stopped caring about new airplanes because the world I fly them in is too sterile and the AI has a couple of too obvious dumb flaws. besides what is mentioned in this thread I would really like some more variety in the shape of the formations that you come across.

[Dagwoodyt]

The problem with GB and Blitz is that it seems less costly to make new maps and aircraft variants than to improve SP AI. That may be because talent required for multicore optimization and AI enhancement is prohibitively expensive to employ. Oleg can't help ?

Edited August 17, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[blue_max]

Or just make the game a bit easier to mod. I think there is enough interest and motivation to make some nice SP mod packs but the engine seems to be a bit to annoying / limited to work with. But not sure, never tried it myself.

[Corralandy120000]

4 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

The problem with GB and Blitz is that it seems less costly to make new maps and aircraft variants than to improve SP AI. That may be because talent required for multicore optimization and AI enhancement is prohibitively expensive to employ. Oleg can't help ?

You are right. But I think this is something the devs have to count with unless they want to make primarly MP sim. Other way is to let the community moders do the work...

3 hours ago, blue_max said:

Or just make the game a bit easier to mod. I think there is enough interest and motivation to make some nice SP mod packs but the engine seems to be a bit to annoying / limited to work with. But not sure, never tried it myself.

I hope it will be like that one day. Just look at games where developers support community modding, for example Warband and Bannerlord (I made many mods myself but that's another story ). You can clearly see the results. Even look at the old 1946. So I hope we will get some modding support and tools sometime soon (I know it's probubbly unlike to happen but still ?). 

[RedeyeStorm]

19 hours ago, Sybreed said:

For 3 years I've asked the devs to look at how wingmen act during bombing missions when they're not in a strategic bomber (FW190A5, HS-129, any plane that will do the occasional bombing mission).

 

Let's say you have a mission to bomb a group concentration at a bridge.

 

Your 7 wingmen will all drop their bombs on a single AA unit and you'll have a "mission accomplished" prompt, completely ruining immersion and feeling the mission is a complete waste of time. The bridge, enemy tanks, all will be completely untouched.

 

Well, the devs actually made matters worse with time, and I've simply stopped playing IL-2 because I play mostly SP and I like to play fighter/bombers.

 

I seriously hope it'll be fixed with BoN, but it hasn't been fixed for 3 years, so my hopes are pretty low.

Well I have to disagree to some point. The AI no longer attacks just the AAA but also drop their bombs on trucks and the tanks. Just not the bridge. In airfield attacks they still attack just the AAA. They AI never attacks a static structure whether it is a bridge or a factory etc, so what they bomb depends on what kind of vehicles are present.

[Sybreed]

4 hours ago, RedeyeStorm said:

Well I have to disagree to some point. The AI no longer attacks just the AAA but also drop their bombs on trucks and the tanks. Just not the bridge. In airfield attacks they still attack just the AAA. They AI never attacks a static structure whether it is a bridge or a factory etc, so what they bomb depends on what kind of vehicles are present.

 

The AI is programmed so that AAA is always top priority, even if it's not your mission objective. Only strategic bombers don't have that setting.

 

If there is AAA near your objective, the main target will be these AAA. With fighters holding a single bomb most of the time, that means they'll drop all their bombs on a single AAA because they'll see it as the biggest threat, instead of attacking the mission objective. That's how fighter AI is programmed in the sim.

 

If you see your flight attacking the actual targets, that means there is no AAA around. Which is a tactic to circumvent the problem that some single player campaign developers for IL-2 used.

[PatrickAWlson]

Another thought on AI.  Make radios count.  I stated earlier that better levels of AI should have better SA and be more aware if/when they are being bounced.  Take the radio into account as well.  Make novice AI in planes without good radios clueless for awhile even if their more aware flight mates have reacted.  Similarly, in aircraft with decent radios, allow the formation to respond as a unit.

 

I'm not going to call this low hanging fruit, but it seems to me the data is all there.  The AI, at some point, says I will respond to a threat.  Presage that logic with some more logic that says am I even aware of the  threat.  I know it won't be that simple, but it does seem within reach.

[ST_Catchov]

Look, BoN is coming soon with pilot career and the same for FC down the track. So fix the God damn AI. Why would you even think of releasing a major sales pitch if it ain't done right?

[JG27_Steini]

14 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

Look, BoN is coming soon with pilot career and the same for FC down the track. So fix the God damn AI. Why would you even think of releasing a major sales pitch if it ain't done right?

 

Selling the engine again and again is ok for me, but they really should fix those problems with singleplayer. We dont need a marshal or new graphic features, we need a single player overhaul. 

[Corralandy120000]

13 minutes ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Selling the engine again and again is ok for me, but they really should fix those problems with singleplayer. We dont need a marshal or new graphic features, we need a single player overhaul. 

So true bro

[Jeroen83]

Agree with the lack of single player options. The mission editor is too difficult for most of us to use, resulting in a general lack of scripted campaigns aswell. Fortunately we have the great EasyMissionGenerator from Vander and the campaign generator from PatWilson which makes up for part of this absence, but those are community member efforts. 

 

Also, what about radar/radio for the allied forces? A vector to airfield or target callout over radio should be present at least...

 

[Corralandy120000]

Maybe it's stupid idea but what about formulating an official open letter from SP community adressed to the devs? Do you think it will work? I think it's a good time and opportunity for this kind of action when BoN is being finished and there aren't any official statements for future plans...

[PaladinX]

Singleplayer improvements gather no new money. They already have the money for the modules they sold. They need to bring new modules so the money keeps flowing.

Investment in AI or SP content is a dead investment.

Unfortunately because this game is lightyears away from the SP content and AI capabilities of a "Sturmovik 1946" or "Wings over Flanders Fields"...

 

[Voidhunger]

Exactly, they know what singleplayer users want, but there is no time and resouces. They slowly add, fix and improve the game. The non existent radio and orders to your wingmans since the beginning of the BOS drives me crazy.

[PatrickAWlson]

8 minutes ago, PaladinX said:

Singleplayer improvements gather no new money. They already have the money for the modules they sold. They need to bring new modules so the money keeps flowing.

Investment in AI or SP content is a dead investment.

Unfortunately because this game is lightyears away from the SP content and AI capabilities of a "Sturmovik 1946" or "Wings over Flanders Fields"...

 

 

Your initial argument, that most revenue flows through module sales is fine. However, the idea that other changes are dead money - I can't agree with that at all.  1C has done any number of changes not directly related to new modules, including AI changes.  Stating that these have no impact on revenue is not at all correct.  Constant improvement of a product is needed for both existing customer retention and new customer expansion.  Ignoring core aspects of your product and just churning out more stuff is not a good business model for any company that wants to stay in business.

 

 

[PaladinX]

In theory, yes. If a game is a good game, it will be sold long term to people.

But what brings direct income? Not the patch with some improved AI (you can not even promote that - no customer will buy the game because the developer now states "heyyyy....we have improved AI".

 

New modules where people click on the cart and the payment buttons - thats what they want and need. as long as everybody buys the newest modules and is happy with playing on 1 or 2 full servers... (i enjoy finnish as well...but SP is more flexible).

I want BIG singleplayer updates, i want a realistic and capable radio and control over my wingmen.

We recently stopped playing a coop campaign because our two wingmen behave so unbelievable stupid...ran away in the mid of a patrol...never came back...yeah great.

[Skrimps]

I play SP only and while I enjoy it still, sometimes I feel "alone" even though I might be in a flight with 2-3 other aircraft. The AI certainly seems to be quite lacking as others have already pointed out. I have been trying to play a scripted campaign lately with 3 other wingmen but every time I take off at least 2 of them can't seem to figure out how to climb and end up crashing into a hill that is near the airfield. They were able to clear the hill once and we proceeded to drop bombs on the enemy, but they ended up dropping their bombs way off target. I have given up and stopped playing this particular campaign. I was surprised how bad the AI is at times, and I hope that it's addressed sooner rather than later.

 

Other than that I am really enjoying IL-2 BoS (I am fairly new to the series) but since I have no interest in MP, proper SP gameplay/AI is more important to me than anything else. Just my opinion.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Skrimps

[Corralandy120000]

4 hours ago, PaladinX said:

In theory, yes. If a game is a good game, it will be sold long term to people.

But what brings direct income? Not the patch with some improved AI (you can not even promote that - no customer will buy the game because the developer now states "heyyyy....we have improved AI".

 

New modules where people click on the cart and the payment buttons - thats what they want and need. as long as everybody buys the newest modules and is happy with playing on 1 or 2 full servers... (i enjoy finnish as well...but SP is more flexible).

I want BIG singleplayer updates, i want a realistic and capable radio and control over my wingmen.

We recently stopped playing a coop campaign because our two wingmen behave so unbelievable stupid...ran away in the mid of a patrol...never came back...yeah great.

You're probubly right. But I (and I think many SP users) will gladly pay if some significant AI and SP GamePlay impoovements come as a payed update.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Corralandy120000

[DBFlyguy]

Like probably most folks here, I spend the majority of my time in SP, so I'd definitely like some major improvements there, especially AI.  Without AI improvements, other improvements are kinda pointless.  I appreciate the effort the devs have put into "cosmetic" type enhancements like pilot uniforms (while cool from a history perspective, you barely even see them unless they are parachuting down as you fly by at 200kts) but I hope we can eventually get solid improvements in things that actually affect game play (AI, DM & FM issues, engine improvements...etc).

 

I like how Eagle Dynamics has posted some priority polls for some of their modules on what should be focused on, It helped them get some good will, I would definitely appreciate it if something like that was introduced here from time to time....wishful thinking, I know...

 

Hopefully after BON and FC II finally release, there will be some time to really focus on some of the lingering issues like AI improvements.

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by DBFlyguy

[Eisenfaustus]

2 hours ago, DBFlyguy said:

Hopefully after BON and FC II finally release, there will be some time to really focus on some of the lingering issues like AI improvements.

I don't think that they'll stop developing planes and maps as that's what will pay their rents. Yet I think they will continually improve gameplay as they have over the past years.

The major overhaul of group tactics and comms we wish for seems unfortunatly very unlikely to me

[Corralandy120000]

1 hour ago, Eisenfaustus said:

 

The major overhaul of group tactics and comms we wish for seems unfortunatly very unlikely to me

If it turns out to be so, I hope the devs will publish some modding tools and/or source code so the community can do the work. I think it will be right approach in the case the devs don't intend to do this kind of overhauls and content 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Corralandy120000

[R33GZ]

Another SP flyer here. To be honest, I don't see too much difference between Il2 BoX AI and RoF AI...  As far as it appears, it was taken straight across and we are left with the same inadequacies that were prevelant in that game. 

 

I know they are busy creating new content, but this is a flight sim, it is imperative that a formation stays with the flight leader during basic flight manouvers...  Not a nice to have, but a critical feature. Definitely more important than clouds or weather (both of which are bloody good by the way ?)

 

That the AI behaviour seems to be continually ignored, as if its not important, really is a bit of a joke, surely. 

 

AI...  I don't think there is much intelligence there. More like AR - Artificial Retards

Edited August 18, 2022 by R33GZ

[JG27_Steini]

19 hours ago, PaladinX said:

Singleplayer improvements gather no new money. They already have the money for the modules they sold. They need to bring new modules so the money keeps flowing.

Investment in AI or SP content is a dead investment.

Unfortunately because this game is lightyears away from the SP content and AI capabilities of a "Sturmovik 1946" or "Wings over Flanders Fields"...

 

 

Missing support/problem fixing for the SP means that a lot of player wont buy the next module. Giving much money for a "new" game with few models i like (another G6) but keeping all other bugs is very unlikely for me. I think many player think that way.

[Corralandy120000]

3 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Missing support/problem fixing for the SP means that a lot of player wont buy the next module. Giving much money for a "new" game with few models i like (another G6) but keeping all other bugs is very unlikely for me. I think many player think that way.

I hope there will be enough of like-minded people so the devs will have to look at SP problems. I have made exactly same decision after BoBP came out. I haven't bought new module since than and I won't buy one until I'll see at least some impovements in SP and AI

[nachinus]

They are about to finish a huge developement project aimed at new content that surely took a lot of work from the whole team. I hope than once Normandy is released, some manpower can be dedicated to quality and gameplay experience stuff rather than new and shiny content.