Developer Diary #325 - Discussion

[BlitzPig_EL]

17 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Maybe we might get some surprises when the next module is announced, who knows?   

 

I don't know about that. Looking at the 410's take off roll distance, it would be very difficult, if not impossible to get one off the deck of Akagi.

 

[Vortice]

The Japanese Imperial Navy were enthusiastic adopters of the cherry blossom insignia, weren't they Laurens?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Actually the Imperial seal was a chrysanthemum,  but who's nitpicking.

[ADorante]

10 hours ago, Pozsgay said:

My comic book about this mission was published by Paquet https://www.editionspaquet.com/catalogue-bd/old-tiger in French language this May (it is available in Hungarian too). Dutch edition is on the way, and there are more languages planned.
 

As soon as I can find your comic book as an English (or German) translated version offered by one of the big US comics distributors (Diamond Previews, Penguin Random House, or Lunar) I will pre-order it. Promise!

[Trooper117]

Just in case anyone missed it, this in reality was what happened operationally to the 410 during the second world war...

 

''From mid-1944, despite being Hitler's favourite bomber destroyer, the Me 410 units were taken from Defence of the Reich duties and production was phased out in favour of heavily armed single-engine fighters as dedicated bomber destroyers, with the Me 410's remaining in service flying on reconnaissance duties only.''

 

 

[Irishratticus72]

46 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

Just in case anyone missed it, this in reality was what happened operationally to the 410 during the second world war...

 

''From mid-1944, despite being Hitler's favourite bomber destroyer, the Me 410 units were taken from Defence of the Reich duties and production was phased out in favour of heavily armed single-engine fighters as dedicated bomber destroyers, with the Me 410's remaining in service flying on reconnaissance duties only.''

 

 

FaKe NeWs!

[Noisemaker]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Just in case anyone missed it, this in reality was what happened operationally to the 410 during the second world war...

 

''From mid-1944, despite being Hitler's favourite bomber destroyer, the Me 410 units were taken from Defence of the Reich duties and production was phased out in favour of heavily armed single-engine fighters as dedicated bomber destroyers, with the Me 410's remaining in service flying on reconnaissance duties only.''

 

 

Tasty unarmed 410s for my hungry Spitfire and Mosquito...

[Guest deleted@219798]

More Luftwaffe planes? Are there going to be any new Soviet planes in the future? What do we have now? Sturmovik, Yak, LaGG-3, La-5, Pe-2 and variants of these and Lend Lease planes. Endless Luftwaffe planes get churned out, some were only made in limited numbers. I don't know if everybody is a Luftwaffe fan.

[Charlo-VR]

My wife enjoys going to estate sales here in L.A. and I occasionally go with her when they appear to have something I’m interested in. Today I stumbled upon an issue of Flying magazine from August 1951, and saw this in the letters to the editor column: 

 

 

[ATAG_SKUD]

Beautiful work Jason and crew. This plane is a masterpiece

skud

3 hours ago, Charlo-VR said:

My wife enjoys going to estate sales here in L.A. and I occasionally go with her when they appear to have something I’m interested in. Today I stumbled upon an issue of Flying magazine from August 1951, and saw this in the letters to the editor column: 

 

 

There is a story behind this famous photo of the 410. The pilot, an ace, had just been killed by B-17 waist gunner.

skud

[EAF19_Marsh]

13 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Just in case anyone missed it, this in reality was what happened operationally to the 410 during the second world war...

 

''From mid-1944, despite being Hitler's favourite bomber destroyer, the Me 410 units were taken from Defence of the Reich duties and production was phased out in favour of heavily armed single-engine fighters as dedicated bomber destroyers, with the Me 410's remaining in service flying on reconnaissance duties only.''

 

 

Yep, despite the enthusiasm of both der Fuhrer and posters above, it got its arse handed to it and went ‘bye-bye’ from the RLV day force. 

[sevenless]

Easy prey for Spitfire and Mustangs. Nevertheless an interesting addition to our hangars.

6 hours ago, ATAG_SKUD said:

 

There is a story behind this famous photo of the 410. The pilot, an ace, had just been killed by B-17 waist gunner.

skud

 

Yep

 

[Lusekofte]

Like Mosquito down low, opposing fighters will gater like flies around your daily dump ?

Awaiting your arrival, there is no way to do a ground attack on a populated server and survive in this plane.

So bring it on. I gladly do it

[1/JSpan_Wind75]

Good job, thanks to all the development team

 

[Angels-6Runwayrht]

  Four hundred and ME reasons to get excited.

WOW 

WOW

 Nerds Rule!

[Avimimus]

On 7/30/2022 at 4:53 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

I don't know about that. Looking at the 410's take off roll distance, it would be very difficult, if not impossible to get one off the deck of Akagi.

 

 

Hmm.... well, they did consider an Arado 240 derived carrier aircraft and a competing twin-engine Fieseler design:

(34) German twin-engined carrier aircraft | Secret Projects Forum

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Avimimus

[Angels-6Runwayrht]

Ummm 10 too..

[Kurfurst]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:55 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Would it be safe to say that Hungary built a better 410?

Hungary built a licensed Me 210C (a ‘fixed’ long fuselaged 210 with DB 605s as 210Ca - ‘a’ standing for foreign) which the Germans built also but quickly skipped after a short production run, and went for the 410 with the bigger DB 603s. We built 605s under license but did not build the 603s so the 210C remained. 

 

There was even a very fun prototype with a (clip loaded!) 40mm Bofors and six 150mm rockets under wings.

[Freycinet]

On 7/30/2022 at 2:10 PM, Pozsgay said:

Thank You!

My comic book about this mission was published by Paquet https://www.editionspaquet.com/catalogue-bd/old-tiger in French language this May (it is available in Hungarian too). Dutch edition is on the way, and there are more languages planned.

Hungarian aircrew really liked their Me 210 Ca-1 fast bombers. They said they were much more afraid of air defenses than of fighters. They fought often with Soviet Yak and Lavochkin fighters successfully despite being outnumbered. 

On that specific mission on 1944. 10. 23. a total of 8 Me 210 took off from Ferihegy. Due fuel shortage no fighter escort was assigned. The first flight of 4 from 102/1 "Eagle" fast bomber squadron and the second flight from 102/2 "Tiger" fast bomber squadron was ordered to attack Soviet trains and tanks in Orosháza. The last to take off was usually the "Old Tiger" as the high experienced pilot József Orbán was nicknamed with my grandfather as gunner (Z-094). As last plane they were the target for remaining AAA and for attacking fighters. After successfully bombing their target the third "Tiger" (Z-140) was attacked by two of the Yaks but after one engine got fire the fighters pulled toward to attack the last 210. The first Yak was shot down north from the target at 13:20 over Nagyszénás the second at 13:22 over Gádoros. Both victories were confirmed by a German Ju 188 long range recon (from Börgönd airbase).
The "Eagle" flight on its way home was attacked by 5 La-5 fighters, where one Lavochkin was shot down.
All Me 210s returned to base (two of them belly landed on the field due damaged landing gear hydraulic system). 

I know György Punka the author of the Hungarian Aces by Osprey in person and also Csaba B. Stenge the author of Forgotten Heroes by Helion is my friend. They helped a lot to create my book. I also created a lot of Royal Hungarian Air Force generic and historical skins for Il-2 I started to upload them to HSD too, but I need more time to continue

 

I bought Pozsgay's comic book (in French) a few months ago and can highly recommend it. The drawings are exquisite, up there with Romain Hugaults' artwork. The story - of one single mission - is very captivating as well. Great work, Pozsgay, and a tremendous tribute to your relative who flew in the 410! 

[SYN_Vander]

On 7/30/2022 at 2:10 PM, Pozsgay said:

Thank You!

My comic book about this mission was published by Paquet https://www.editionspaquet.com/catalogue-bd/old-tiger in French language this May (it is available in Hungarian too). Dutch edition is on the way, and there are more languages planned.
 

 

That's great! Looking forward to it!

[Aurora_Stealth]

12 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Like Mosquito down low, opposing fighters will gater like flies around your daily dump ?

Awaiting your arrival, there is no way to do a ground attack on a populated server and survive in this plane.

So bring it on. I gladly do it

 

Well the key difference here compared with the Mosquito is that once contact is made... the Me 410 has the robustness to take many more hits and keep flying. That will be useful when absorbing hits from attacking aircraft, ground AA or shipping that's firing back.

 

The gunner will also alert the pilot of an attacker (I don't think the Mosquito co-pilot does but correct me if I'm wrong here), and if you're being engaged in the 410 by a fighter that doesn't have a cannon armament... it could prove a really hard aircraft to suppress and bring down - at the very least you're going to expend a lot of ammunition unless you're uncomfortably close to this thing. So even with a high speed approach there's no guarantee you will make a decisive hit without becoming vulnerable to the gunner. Finding a good blind spot with the pilot evading may prove a real challenge and the 410 has a great dive / never exceed speed (Vne) too, so that's going to make any chase from altitude pretty drawn out.

 

The way I see it, the Me 410 has a good deal more performance and weapons options than the Bf 110, its similar in construction / robustness to a Ju88 (which is very robust), and has a better defensive system than either. It also has quite decent visibility around the glasshouse canopy, and because the pilot sits higher above the wings than in the Mosquito - it should help with spotting (ground and air) as well as deflection shooting.

 

While (like any twin engined heavy fighter, bomber etc) its not going to be able to outperform a single engined fighter directly in performance or maneuverability (that's too much to ask), it can still force its opponents to keep extending away to dodge gunfire while absorbing hits... and has the energy and robustness to keep going.

 

Another thing that is clear (especially in the video with that head on pass) is that Messerschmitt has once again provided huge leverage over the tailplane/rudder by extending the rear fuselage... no doubt to offset the instability issues that came with the 210, but also handle those huge engines and their immense torque, propwash. But what this has also done (like with the 109, 110) is to gift the pilot with huge rudder / yawing force (perhaps 20 - 30 plus degrees) which will help it to be a very adjustable gun platform and may also assist in defensive manoeuvres. In theory, you could clear potential blind spots for the gunner just by pushing hard rudder in the 410.

 

One last thing I'd like to emphasise is that the barbettes/MG131's appear to be belt fed on a drum... this means there's probably no reloading, and the return fire is going to be almost constant and fairly viscous. The barbettes should in theory be less affected by speed and G forces due to the gunner system and so this aircraft can draw out a fight with its flexible defensive armament.

 

These are all soft factors that may affect its combat ability/mix, people tend to focus only on hard factors and the headlines of top speed or turning circle which can be offset by good tactics and having wingmen / operating as groups of attackers. Aircraft don't just fly at top speed all the time, so the differential in speed may not always be so great... and this thing has huge power behind it - there are also clouds to hide in and hit and run tactics that can, and should be used.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Aurora_Stealth

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

15 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Like Mosquito down low, opposing fighters will gater like flies around your daily dump ?

Awaiting your arrival, there is no way to do a ground attack on a populated server and survive in this plane.

So bring it on. I gladly do it

 

I think you will be surprised. The 110s we have now are VERY effective against ground targets and quite capable of defending themselves against fighters even on well populated servers. If you have a few good 110 pilots and a just a couple escort fighters, wrecking ground targets is no problem. It's all about WHO is flying the missions, not necessarily the aircraft.

 

I think it will be much the same with the 410. If you get a good group of guys/gals working together, I think the 410 is going to be a menace. The biggest factor is, we don't have to follow orders or tactics from any "high command". We can do what works and use the aircraft for its advantages.

 

I personally am going to fly the hell out of it.

 

See you over the target area!

[=621=Samikatz]

Anything with front guns is a threat if you don't treat it with respect in an actual fight, I've even seen unescorted Il-2s fend off multiple 109s several times. The 410 will do fine, even if in a vacuum it's no duellist

[tattywelshie]

I just can’t wait to fly the thing! It’s got an emotional connection to me, I used to watch one being run up down at my local airfield as a kid and reminds me of blissful childhood days with my parents ?

[Asgar]

On 8/1/2022 at 2:23 AM, kestrel444x500 said:

More Luftwaffe planes? Are there going to be any new Soviet planes in the future? What do we have now? Sturmovik, Yak, LaGG-3, La-5, Pe-2 and variants of these and Lend Lease planes. Endless Luftwaffe planes get churned out, some were only made in limited numbers. I don't know if everybody is a Luftwaffe fan.

Have you seen the collector planes that have been announced and released in the last two years?

 

And why would there be VVS planes in the last two modules? I can’t remember reading about Russian planes flying over the Rheinland or Normandy.

when readin some comments on this forum I just don’t know what I‘m supposed to think ? 

[EAF19_Marsh]

On 7/30/2022 at 3:39 PM, I./JG1_Baron said:

 

Because some masochists like to do it ?

 

You make a good point.

[Pozsgay]

14 hours ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

 

Well the key difference here compared with the Mosquito is that once contact is made... the Me 410 has the robustness to take many more hits and keep flying. That will be useful when absorbing hits from attacking aircraft, ground AA or shipping that's firing back.

 

The gunner will also alert the pilot of an attacker (I don't think the Mosquito co-pilot does but correct me if I'm wrong here), and if you're being engaged in the 410 by a fighter that doesn't have a cannon armament... it could prove a really hard aircraft to suppress and bring down - at the very least you're going to expend a lot of ammunition unless you're uncomfortably close to this thing. So even with a high speed approach there's no guarantee you will make a decisive hit without becoming vulnerable to the gunner. Finding a good blind spot with the pilot evading may prove a real challenge and the 410 has a great dive / never exceed speed (Vne) too, so that's going to make any chase from altitude pretty drawn out.

 

The way I see it, the Me 410 has a good deal more performance and weapons options than the Bf 110, its similar in construction / robustness to a Ju88 (which is very robust), and has a better defensive system than either. It also has quite decent visibility around the glasshouse canopy, and because the pilot sits higher above the wings than in the Mosquito - it should help with spotting (ground and air) as well as deflection shooting.

 

While (like any twin engined heavy fighter, bomber etc) its not going to be able to outperform a single engined fighter directly in performance or maneuverability (that's too much to ask), it can still force its opponents to keep extending away to dodge gunfire while absorbing hits... and has the energy and robustness to keep going.

 

Another thing that is clear (especially in the video with that head on pass) is that Messerschmitt has once again provided huge leverage over the tailplane/rudder by extending the rear fuselage... no doubt to offset the instability issues that came with the 210, but also handle those huge engines and their immense torque, propwash. But what this has also done (like with the 109, 110) is to gift the pilot with huge rudder / yawing force (perhaps 20 - 30 plus degrees) which will help it to be a very adjustable gun platform and may also assist in defensive manoeuvres. In theory, you could clear potential blind spots for the gunner just by pushing hard rudder in the 410.

 

One last thing I'd like to emphasise is that the barbettes/MG131's appear to be belt fed on a drum... this means there's probably no reloading, and the return fire is going to be almost constant and fairly viscous. The barbettes should in theory be less affected by speed and G forces due to the gunner system and so this aircraft can draw out a fight with its flexible defensive armament.

 

These are all soft factors that may affect its combat ability/mix, people tend to focus only on hard factors and the headlines of top speed or turning circle which can be offset by good tactics and having wingmen / operating as groups of attackers. Aircraft don't just fly at top speed all the time, so the differential in speed may not always be so great... and this thing has huge power behind it - there are also clouds to hide in and hit and run tactics that can, and should be used.

... and the fast bomber version has dive brake. Hungarian pilots used it often to force enemies to overshoot (if the gunner did not hit them before). After bombs were dropped the Me 410 a has good power to mass ratio and can accelerate surprisingly fast. The gunner is able too see and shoot under the tail from his bubble canopy so attacking from low six is not safe either (except from very low). The barbettes have a mechanic to prevent shooting the elevators so the gunner can pull the trigger freely without the risk of destroying his own plane (if someone played as gunner or flew with a gunner as player knows why it is important).
I wish AI gunners could at least tell where enemy is attacking from (direction, low, high, and distance). So they would more useful even if shooting only like bumbling rookies