Stupid question about artificial horizon when messing around in the clouds

[Youtch]

Is there anyway to tell from artificial horizon if you are flying inverted or normal in the cloud?

 

I fly mostly Bf109 and Fw190 and when making evasive moves into the big cloud, I am struggling to know where the ground is.

 

I guess this problem does not exist in real life as you will always know if your head is up-side-down, but in a simulator with no reference, I cannot tell, or at least don t know how to tell from the instruments.

 

Thank you very much in advance,

y.

[unlikely_spider]

Pull back on stick

Altitude decreasing?

If yes:

You are upside down

[AndyJWest]

I don't think WW2-era artificial horizons were intended for aerobatics in cloud. Not for anyone who wished to stay alive, anyway. They tumble. And no, you can't use your head  to tell which way up you are either. Trying to do that has killed a great many pilots. Which is why they invented artificial horizons. And why they didn't engage in aerobatics in clouds.

[IckyATLAS]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

I guess this problem does not exist in real life as you will always know if your head is up-side-down,

This is not true. It is all related to acceleration. Our body perception is not made to fly in three dimensions. It can be easily fooled when you have no visual cues. This is why without being used to fly on instruments and without visual cues pilots just kill themselves.

Edited July 26, 2022 by IckyATLAS

[BlitzPig_EL]

The night flying "death spiral" is another example.

[Skelthos]

Spatial Disorientation is a real killer. Very common cause of crashes in general aviation, involves pilots with little to no training or experience flying into clouds or weather and becoming disoriented.  

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Skelthos said:

Spatial Disorientation is a real killer. Very common cause of crashes in general aviation, involves pilots with little to no training or experience flying into clouds or weather and becoming disoriented.  

 

Nope...experienced military aviators with much experience have fallen prey to it as well, it's not just the realm of the inexperienced.

I was just reading an account by an F-4 pilot in Vietnam who was saved by his wingman after he was basically lost to spatial D.

 

[Majpalmer]

I hate maneuvering in and around clouds. I check my speed and my alt. If I'm not throttling up and my speed is increasing, I'm probably going down. 

 

As for the dark, I'm 71 and it's more than I can handle. I can't see shit. If it's near sunrise, I'll go. But if it's the middle of the night, no way. I didn't sign up as a Night Fighter!!!!

[JG13_opcode]

never mind, irrelevant

Edited July 27, 2022 by JG13_opcode

[Soilworker]

9 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The night flying "death spiral" is another example.

 

Haven't heard of that one, can I trouble you for some elaboration? 

[Irishratticus72]

12 hours ago, Youtch said:

Is there anyway to tell from artificial horizon if you are flying inverted or normal in the cloud?

 

I fly mostly Bf109 and Fw190 and when making evasive moves into the big cloud, I am struggling to know where the ground is.

 

 

If the pooh is coming out of your collar, you're inverted.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Irishratticus72

[IckyATLAS]

7 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Nope...experienced military aviators with much experience have fallen prey to it as well, it's not just the realm of the inexperienced.

I was just reading an account by an F-4 pilot in Vietnam who was saved by his wingman after he was basically lost to spatial D.

 

Absolutely correct. Long ago the Air Force conducted special tests with very trained and experienced  fighter pilots to see how long they could fly manually (no instruments, blindfolded, direct controls ) before losing control of the plane. I do not remember well the exact number but it was about half a minute or so. 

And I also did this in my training, flying blindfolded no visual cues starting from a straight wing level situation (with an instructor ready to catch the plane) and I can confirm that when the instructor took controls and I took away my special eyewear used to blind me, the plane was completely out of the three axis starting indeed a downward spiral.

And this happened very shortly and after all I was an aerobatic pilot, glacier pilot, and have excellent "natural feel" of moving in 3 dimensions since birth. Once you experiment this phenomenon then you never do such an error again and you know that you have not been made by evolution to fly. You become very modest about your "natural skill" and avoid to entre such a condition. Then you continue to be even more jealous of the birds that you see flying around.

 

When training for IFR and flying on instruments the first two hours were exhausting. Because you had to manage two contradictory information. Your body telling you it's all well you are flat, and your horizontal indicator turning, your altimeter starting to move, and so you needed to fight your natural feeling and your brain had to act according to the instrument. The first natural reaction is that the instrument is wrong because I feel I am right. No the instrument is right. But this can be trained. However if for whatever reason the instrument is wrong (there are backups but you can have a complete failure)  then disaster is imminent as you will loose spatial control.

[Noisemaker]

I'm really surprised by how many fighter aircraft, Russian and German, that weren't fitted with a artificial horizon!  Seems they were standard on US and British planes from the beginning.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

13 hours ago, Youtch said:

Is there anyway to tell from artificial horizon if you are flying inverted or normal in the cloud?

 

I fly mostly Bf109 and Fw190 and when making evasive moves into the big cloud, I am struggling to know where the ground is.

 

I guess this problem does not exist in real life as you will always know if your head is up-side-down, but in a simulator with no reference, I cannot tell, or at least don t know how to tell from the instruments.

 

Thank you very much in advance,

y.

 

I'm not sure if it's every 109 but, on most, the artificial horizon has 3 elements:  The horizon/level line, the slip indicator (ball), and the bank indicator (the needle that swings side to side in the center of the gauge).  I'm pretty sure that if you're upside down and the horizon line is lined up with the center, the bank indicator should be skewed to 1 side and impossible to line up until you're upright again.  

 

[Youtch]

Very interesting discussion!

[[CPT]Crunch]

4 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I'm not sure if it's every 109 but, on most, the artificial horizon has 3 elements:  The horizon/level line, the slip indicator (ball), and the bank indicator (the needle that swings side to side in the center of the gauge).  I'm pretty sure that if you're upside down and the horizon line is lined up with the center, the bank indicator should be skewed to 1 side and impossible to line up until you're upright again.  

 

Yup, that's the easy way, soon as you hit the clouds never allow that bank turn indicator to leave the marked limits and use the horizon and altimeter to maneuver, all you'll ever need to shake a pursuer is fly coordinated turns.  Practice a basic holding pattern doing a continuous level turn for a while, the odds are like .0001% the guy trying to follow can match you. 

[Skelthos]

13 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Nope...experienced military aviators with much experience have fallen prey to it as well, it's not just the realm of the inexperienced.

I was just reading an account by an F-4 pilot in Vietnam who was saved by his wingman after he was basically lost to spatial D.

Absolutely, and I never said they did not, pilots of all levels can and do fall prey to it, I just noted that is a very common factor in GA accidents.  

 

I recently read Norbert Hanning's book about his experiences on the Eastern Front during WW II, it is actually something he touches on as well.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Skelthos

[MisterSmith]

18 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

I don't think WW2-era artificial horizons were intended for aerobatics in cloud. Not for anyone who wished to stay alive, anyway. They tumble. And no, you can't use your head  to tell which way up you are either. Trying to do that has killed a great many pilots. Which is why they invented artificial horizons. And why they didn't engage in aerobatics in clouds.

 

They were not. Heavy maneuvering will throw the artificial horizon out of whack and can actually break it in some cases. Some have the ability to "cage" or lock the device during aerobatics. Fly the P-51 or late model Spit, in game, and throw it around heavily. The artificial horizon loses center and takes up to a couple of minutes to regain calibration while flying straight and level. It's a really cool effect/detail.

 

The D9 and G-14, on the other hand, do not do this on the German side. They regain center almost immediately. Not sure if this is accurate and I haven't tested all AC. If all of the era artificial horizons should do this (lose calibration) it would be nice to see the code retrofitted across the board.

[Elem]

7 hours ago, Soilworker said:

 

Haven't heard of that one, can I trouble you for some elaboration? 

Read 'First Light' by Geoffrey Wellum. He lost several colleagues to this.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

5 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Yup, that's the easy way, soon as you hit the clouds never allow that bank turn indicator to leave the marked limits and use the horizon and altimeter to maneuver, all you'll ever need to shake a pursuer is fly coordinated turns.  Practice a basic holding pattern doing a continuous level turn for a while, the odds are like .0001% the guy trying to follow can match you. 

 

For extra fun, do it in a plane that doesn't have the artificial horizon!  Yaks are good for this. They have altimeter, compass and slip/bank indicator...  and that's it.  It can be done but, holy crap, it's extremely easy to come out of coordination. 

[Noisemaker]

5 hours ago, MisterSmith said:

 

They were not. Heavy maneuvering will throw the artificial horizon out of whack and can actually break it in some cases. Some have the ability to "cage" or lock the device during aerobatics. Fly the P-51 or late model Spit, in game, and throw it around heavily. The artificial horizon loses center and takes up to a couple of minutes to regain calibration while flying straight and level. It's a really cool effect/detail.

 

The D9 and G-14, on the other hand, do not do this on the German side. They regain center almost immediately. Not sure if this is accurate and I haven't tested all AC. If all of the era artificial horizons should do this (lose calibration) it would be nice to see the code retrofitted across the board.

Wait, you're not locking the thread? 

[PatrickAWlson]

I lose spatial awareness in clouds in this game.  Don't know how many times I have had to pull out of a screaming nose dive when I finally see the ground rushing up to meet me.  What gets to me is that I don't know why.  I know to look at the instrument - attitude indicator, speed, altimeter, etc.  Sounds manageable, but I have real problems managing it.

[Noisemaker]

Just now, PatrickAWlson said:

I lose spatial awareness in clouds in this game.  Don't know how many times I have had to pull out of a screaming nose dive when I finally see the ground rushing up to meet me.  What gets to me is that I don't know why.  I know to look at the instrument - attitude indicator, speed, altimeter, etc.  Sounds manageable, but I have real problems managing it.

Had the same issue today in an A20 over Kuban.  Just past the target, we went into a large cloud bank for our turn to egress.  Between closing bomb bay doors, managing throttle and RPM to gain speed, and banking, I lost situational awareness and ended up almost inverted, even though the A20 has an AHI.  You get busy, you get distracted, then disaster strikes.  Luckily in this case I came out of the clouds in time to see the situation I was in. 

[Dragon1-1]

It's no so bad on pancake, but in VR... well, that's a whole other story. It's actually kind of scary. It's not just the disconnect between instruments and what your butt is telling you, and not just the lack of visual reference, but the fact that everything outside the cockpit ceases to exist as far as you're concerned. I can fly in clouds in VR, or at night (just look at your instruments and don't think about anything else), but if I'm flying in DCS, I'll get NODs on a night flight if I can, and try to get out of the clouds ASAP even if flying a modern fighter with a HUD and everything. Otherwise, the black/white void outside gets really disconcerting. The NODs might not be good for actually seeing anything, but they're very good for giving you some peace of mind in that darkness.

 

Real pilots reported it too, particularly on long night trips over water. Some even reported hallucinations. I'm pretty sure many IFR accidents are due to such psychological effects, even if you know all the theory on how to fly instruments, you also have to be able to handle being alone in that featureless void, and unlike in VR, you don't have the comfort of lifting up the googles to see that the non-virtual reality is still there.

[danielprates]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:43 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

The night flying "death spiral" is another example.

 

Bob Hoover doing a full loop with a glass of water on the dashboard is another.

[Soilworker]

12 hours ago, danielprates said:

 

Bob Hoover doing a full loop with a glass of water on the dashboard is another.

 

Just looked that up on YouTube, goddamn... 

 

https://youtu.be/V9pvG_ZSnCc

[danielprates]

11 hours ago, Soilworker said:

 

Just looked that up on YouTube, goddamn... 

 

https://youtu.be/V9pvG_ZSnCc

 

Cool huh? Thanks, I didnt remember it was a barrel roll. Come to think of it he may have done both, viz a looping too. 

[Majpalmer]

About 25 years ago my then-wife asked me why I spent so much time with flight sims but never asked her if she would like to learn to sim-fly. She accused me of thinking that she was too stupid.

 

I set her up and showed her how to take off, which she managed to do after about a dozen attempts. Next, I told her to turn to the left, which she did. I immediately knew I was in trouble when she grabbed the monitor (probably 21" at that point, or smaller) and tried to move it with her hand to recenter the screen. 

 

No matter how many times I explained to her what she was seeing as a simulation, she could never separate it all in her mind. It didn't faze my 10-year-old son, but his mother....

 

Sometimes if she came into my office when I was flying, she'd stand behind me and watch and  I could see her leaning left and right with her head and bending over as I maneuvered. 

 

Our brains are all wired differently, I guess. 

[EAF19_Marsh]

My limited IFR experience (GA) is that it gets really confusing really quickly.

 

Something that sims never manage to recreate is the sense of flying. It is all easy and calm in a comfy chair, familiar surroundings, nice drink, no physical forces, no vibration, little noise. But even just pootling around in a nice GA platform it is simply more 'real'. And that's with basic circumstances and noone shooting at you.

[unlikely_spider]

4 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

And that's with basic circumstances and noone shooting at you.

Must be nice. I live in the metro DC area so I can't even take that for granted.

[MajorMagee]

 

On 7/28/2022 at 7:54 PM, danielprates said:

 

Cool huh? Thanks, I didnt remember it was a barrel roll. Come to think of it he may have done both, viz a looping too.