The Bomber Problem(s)

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Hi there!

With this Post I will remember that some decisions of the developers have a huge negative impact on the Bombers gameplay.

First of all is the reduced Bomb blast. Since a long time the blast radius seems decreased a lot. Best you can see if you drop big bombs like 1000 kilograms…. Even not all in the crate will be destroyed.

Second one and the most important is the gunners accuracy since 4.604b. Since that update you left behind the Bombers and any plane have a rear gunner simply defenceless!  If meet an enemy on same altitude there is no chance to survive by just let the gunners do their job. They are just useless ballast.
This have a huge impact on single and multiplayer and makes it useless schedule any sorties where you have to expect meet interceptors on same altitude.

I get nightmares if I think about fly missions in the upcoming careers with the Gotha or Handley Page…

However, I know a lot of content is on the final and everyone is busy in the development. But the negative changes impact is very huge and here I will make remember please don’t forget this topic. Because it’s make a big part of the game funless to play.

I find this Video on YouTube, thanks those guys who made it ?

 

[JG300_Egon]

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Add to that the fact that the planes are now as if made of glass. An enemy fighter can position himself dead six, without reargunners trying to hit, firing a short burst where the projectiles, without loss of velocity, go through various metal, equipment, fueltanks, people and finally armor plate and kill the pilot. And that's just in a single short burst.

At the same time, the plane is eventually set on fire, taken apart completely, or explodes. Crawling home, on a single engine is now completely out of the question.

 

In addition, the pilot dies all too easily during belly landings, when you bump into something, or as in FC, the plane tips over.

 

So yes, bombers and ground attack aircrafts, have been made into nothing but helpless easy to kill targets, which can hardly inflick much damage, with the bombblasts we currently have. 

 

 

[jollyjack]

did you try setting waypoints to low or medium?

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'd like to know the settings for the AI in that video.  Without that knowledge it makes it impossible to judge what we see.

 

And lose that voice over, it does nothing to advance your cause.

[JonRedcorn]

24 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I'd like to know the settings for the AI in that video.  Without that knowledge it makes it impossible to judge what we see.

 

And lose that voice over, it does nothing to advance your cause.

To be fair even on the lowest AI setting they shouldn't be that terrible. That was 5 minutes and I saw 2 hits. My 4 yearold nephew could land more hits than that.

Edited July 24, 2022 by JonRedcorn

[JG4_Moltke1871]

25 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I'd like to know the settings for the AI in that video.  Without that knowledge it makes it impossible to judge what we see.

 

And lose that voice over, it does nothing to advance your cause.

Read the description of this video.

For example the gunner accuracy was already a topic on Finnish server. They set to maximum and the AI gunners there  are as blind as in the video. ??

 

[ROCKET_KNUT]

To whoever made that video. I´m quoting here from the famous book "IL2GB AI gunners, Volume Two":

"C´mon, it’s the goof of all time, everybody knows that:
Grab that 50 cal., but don´t open fire.
Open fire, but don’t get the direction of the target.

Get the direction of the target, but don´t score hits.

Score hits, but don´t do damage..."

And so on... It´s just a game afterall and is not specifically made for bomber players only. ?

Edited July 24, 2022 by ROCKET_KNUT

[JG4_Moltke1871]

57 minutes ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

To whoever made that video. I´m quoting here from the famous book "IL2GB AI gunners, Volume Two":

"C´mon, it’s the goof of all time, everybody knows that:
Grab that 50 cal., but don´t open fire.
Open fire, but don’t get the direction of the target.

Get the direction of the target, but don´t score hits.

Score hits, but don´t do damage..."

And so on... It´s just a game afterall and is not specifically made for bomber players only. ?

??‍♂️

[Velxra]

Well atleast we know the german gunners still remain more accurate than the soviets. Its like we are back in 2019 where there was a clear difference. Just now we see both hitting the target far less overall using this new call of duty cone fire mechanic.

[CountZero]

in game that is heavy fighter orianted there is no problem, it was changed to this after years of topgun fighter players complains that one in 10 attackes they get shot down by bomber gunner. Doubt anything gona change from what you have now, you as bomber are just target nothing els, even destroying buildings ports hangars is more effective with fighter with bomb as he can strafe it later then pure bomber airplane. 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

20 minutes ago, CountZero said:

in game that is heavy fighter orianted there is no problem, it was changed to this after years of topgun fighter players complains that one in 10 attackes they get shot down by bomber gunner. Doubt anything gona change from what you have now, you as bomber are just target nothing els, even destroying buildings ports hangars is more effective with fighter with bomb as he can strafe it later then pure bomber airplane. 

I open this topic not only for the belongings of online players. It’s also about the single player content. When everything stays like now I see no sense in Gotha or Handley Page careers. In WW2 careers can only survive in sick altitudes. As a fighter it’s no challenge intercept Bomber formations. And honestly: Steal a plane the ability to defend can't be serious in online gameplay either.

This thread here is mainly an invite to talk about the Bombers condition for everyone have interest this topic, especially also to the developers.

So I am a bit sorry to see this threat was moved to complaints.

About belongings of online gameplay only (I guess you talk about) should be on the server sites.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

It's been said already but from an online experience bombing and ground attack has gone from very challenging to absolutely ridiculous. 

 

I was flying an 88 on Friday on the Finnish server and my AI gunner started firing.The firing continued for awhile and I could hear the plink plink of my aircraft taking hits from small caliber rounds. I knew that the defensive fire from the gunner was useless, so I hopped into the rear seat and watched a fighter just toying with the aircraft.

The fighter was just sitting dead six peppering the air frame with what appeared to be MG fire. The aircraft was just there with not a care in the world, so I thought "right lets get on the gun" so I press the fire trigger and guess what, out of ammunition.  So the fighter had been sitting dead six and the AI expended every single round without result.

 

I completely understand that the Devs are on a "very" tight schedule but the changes that have been implemented have effectively killed the online bombing experience.   

 

Edit: I hope once Normandy is released the Devs will take a second look.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[IckyATLAS]

I did a a few fighter against bomber test in the QMB by having various fighters against a HE111H16. Both planes are as set as ACE.

Intercept at 2'000 mt alt for both planes. First a P40 that did manage to kill the HE111 but was severly damaged by the gunners and smoking all around.

In this intercept there was a horizontal front pass that damaged the HE111, which is logical as the horizontal pass is the most effective against bombers, and the front gunner cannot do much as it all goes to quick as crossing speeds are nearly 700 km/hr. In general some bullets land in the vast frontal glass cockpit of the HE111 killing the front gunner of pilot. Here the pilot was not hit, so the plane damaged continued flying. Then the P40 did a high turn and dived straight on the HE111. There the rear gunner did a good job by heavily damaging the P40. Luckily the P40 pilot was not killed and the HE111 went down. On a second test the P40 pilot was killed in the frontal attack and went down (the frontal gunner has a 20mm gun) the HE111 was unscathed. The HE111 front gunner did a good job. All this seems to me pretty realistic and so I do not see any issue here.

 

Then I did a straight stabilized attack from behind with no frontal pass. This time a P38 came at six o'clock same altitude from a HE111 H16. Both planes fly straight without evading maneuvers which is not very realistic but otherwise we could  not  test gunner capability. Here you would expect a win from the P38 which has a massive concentrated firepower in the nose. And indeed in the first pass the HE111 was destroyed and its pilot killed. The P38 was unscathed. But I could see the belly gunner and the top gunner firing both at the P38 and straight in his direction. Do not forget both are ACE. On the second try exactly the same, this time the HE111 was again down but the P38 had one engine damaged black smoke coming out and had it's tanks hit and was trailing white vapor. So the gunners managed to damage it. 

 

Now let's test the same thing with the P38 as Average and HE111 as ACE and see what happens. We must not forget that this is a non favorable position because for both the belly and top gunner if the attacking plane is right straight behind the bomber tail they have difficulties to aim correctly because the plane rear rudder and tail will mask the plane either to the top or bottom gunner. Anyway in these conditions they manage to damage the P38 sometimes lightly but no kill, and they go down always. Then I tried with a Hurricane without cannons but eight 7.5mm and the Hurricane went down and the HE111 even if damaged continue flying. In another case both get down but in general the HE111 is either downed or severely damaged and the Hurricane severely damaged or downed. Again here I do not see anything strange. The fact that closing speed is slow compared to P38 allows more time to the rear gunners.

 

Now I changed the plane and pitched the JU88-C6 with a top 13mm gunner. There is also a belly double barrel guns of similar caliber. The Hurricane does not manage to catch it.  Then with P38 is Average and JU88-C6 is ACE. The P38 goes down in flames. Sometimes both go down, but in any case the P38 is always heavily damaged but the Ju88 is often destroyed. So here again it does not seem to me that that there is anything strange. I used the latest version of the Spitfire (again Average) with cannons and four additional guns, there the poor Ju88 was toast with no damage to the Spitfire. The JU88 Top gunner always reacts late because the machine gun cannot fire to low behind so it has to wait that the plane closes, and the spitfire closes fast which is also fatal to the JU88. 

 

Anyway this is one fighter against one bomber. But always the gunners were firing in the right direction and scoring multiple hits. If the fighter was standing and not firing like in the video all the fighters would have been destroyed. So I have no idea with what parameters the video from JG4_Moltke1871 was made.

 

A last thing to add I did the tests with my configuration which is Custom mode which corresponds to Expert except for external cameras and the info icons. The map is Rheinland summer.

 

Other combinations of fighter and bombers may yield different results.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by IckyATLAS

[6./ZG26_Loke]

@IckyATLAS.

 

Try fly as a bomber or ground attack aircraft for a year in MP, and then we like to hear what you experiences. 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Interesting is focus what the gunners do (or not do). I recommend Flying Circus Attackers and Bombers for that where you have a good view on them. Set em on air or ground targets, no matter. It seems they aiming first in a total wrong direction. Only in the last moment they focus direct the target and make some accurate hits. As if they are purposely not aiming properly at the enemy aircraft or ground target. When I play mixed Player/AI server like Wing Walkers AI Enemy Low skill Planes follow my Gotha in slomo, Open Fire at 400 Meters and shred the Bomber before the gunner react. In many online experience I bring my plane in good position (watch where they aim), but it’s useless because they are not able to hit. Only in the last moment when the enemy comes much to close there is a chance for a hit but for usual this not happens. When I get attacked and later I watch the mission log almost the interceptor didn’t get a single scratch. Meanwhile I see in case of an enemy attack only the chance of bail out as soon as possible over own territory. Just because it’s senseless go into a fight. In the past it was much more interesting watch the enemy and try to counter his moves. All this fun is away because the gunners miss on purpose.

In single player career I like to play Iron Man on highest difficulty. But flying attack‘s on medium level or dive attacks are impossible, ending in bloodbath and a very short career ?

Not a single shotdown by the gunners since the gunners patch… so I only can save my dummy’s live fly high level attacks only..?

Otherwise in my Fighter career intercept bombers is very easy… they will not hit me if I not come much to close… set their engine on fire one after another, don’t have much to fear on enemy’s six… Before the patch it was really difficult, I had to take my time for head on‘s, prevent fly on their six because it’s a deadly place ?better come from sides top and pass em es quick as possible!!!

All this fun is away because…: The gunners are blind. They are no challenge anymore …. or no help, up to the angle of view ☹️
This is my connected experience and this is the impact I see of the „gunners patch“ in single and multiplayer. 

[[DBS]Browning]

It's the main reason I've stopped flying in IL2. ?
The bomb blast I find to be accurate, but the gunners are worthless.

They hit shots no human could hit, and miss shots no human could miss. I hope for change one day.

[jollyjack]

15 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

They hit shots no human could hit, and miss shots no human could miss. I hope for change one day.

 

Sounds like real life to me ...

[Luftschiff]

As someone who loves flying bombers I will just add that I agree.
The gunner accuracy needed to be severely toned down for maneuvering/high G deflection shots but their accuracy on near stationary targets is definitely off.
For my part I think bomb blast radius is a bigger issue because while perhaps more accurate, we cannot hit targets with dozens and dozens or hundreds of bombers, just one or two poor SOB's who still try to fly glass airframes for an hour through hostile territory only to have their hits do zero damage because the blast radius is pathetic or targets don't look destroyed despite being so. It's just a mess to play the non-fighter half of gameplay. 

Please see what can be done to bring people back to bombers.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Gunners need to be re-checked. What we had before was perhaps overdone - but right now gunners are next to useless...

 

A fix is needed.

Edited August 2, 2022 by [DBS]TH0R