A FW-190 Tactics Question

[percydanvers]

So here's a situation I've been getting myself killed in a lot lately. I'm in a Fw 190 at, say, 2000m and I spot something (let's say a Yak 9 in this case) coming in on my 6:00 at a slight energy advantage. He's not bouncing me where I might try a rolling defense to force an overshoot, but he's not far enough away for me to just run and get away. he bandit is slowly gaining on me.

 

Let's also say for this scenario that there's a particular objective in the area that I'm trying defend, so I'd prefer not to get chased too far away.

 

It seems like whatever I do will get me killed. I can do a split-S into a head on pass, which might work but if I miss he'll be even closer to killing me. I can't climb above him, I might dive below him and escape but again present the opportunity for him to get really close to the kill. Ideally I'd have wingmen around to help, but let's say I don't for this hypothetical. How do you stay alive in this situation? Is it even possible to turn the tables on my pursuer? 

[Dr_Molem]

What i would do in your situation, first i would start a shallow dive (full power & radiators closed) so i can equalize (if not reverse) our energy states.

 

As soon as i get a good separation, let's say 1,5-2 km, i would start a shallow climb with such a small angle that i won't go lower than 450 kph.

 

Once he's far enough (most of time he would have given up already) i reverse the situation by using vertical.

[percydanvers]

1 hour ago, Dr_Molem said:

What i would do in your situation, first i would start a shallow dive (full power & radiators closed) so i can equalize (if not reverse) our energy states.

 

As soon as i get a good separation, let's say 1,5-2 km, i would start a shallow climb with such a small angle that i won't go lower than 450 kph.

 

Once he's far enough (most of time he would have given up already) i reverse the situation by using vertical.

 

I'll give that a try!

[=621=Samikatz]

Shallow dive to slowly speed up to the Yak's maximum speed and escape to re-commit later.

 

While you leave the objective undefended for a moment, it is extra undefended if you are dead

[percydanvers]

7 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

While you leave the objective undefended for a moment, it is extra undefended if you are dead

 

You raise a good point there

[tattywelshie]

Glad you mentioned this, I’m quite proficient with most fighters on this game, but the LA-5 and FW190 I really struggle with. I think it’s because maybe they aren’t your standard turning dogfighters and you have to be a bit more creative in how you take down the enemy. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Dr Molem up there at the top has the right answer. You want to reverse the energy state while doing something that the FW190 does quite well which is straight line speed and acceleration.

 

Flying a fighter like the FW190 requires a different approach. You don't chase after aircraft, you pick a target, attack it, and go and maximize your energy again.

 

In a few examples while flying the FW190 I would often do it in a team of two or more. We'd see a dogfight ahead and we'd climb slightly above and build up tremendous speed and then pass through. If an enemy fighter was within our ability to engage without dumping our speed we'd make a pass with high or low angle deflection shooting and then carry on through and away. Single pass. Move off somewhere, get back together and reposition for the next pass. It's difficult to defend against particularly with a wingman because if someone latches onto one of the FW190s the other just rolls and fires.

 

Very effective fighter. Its just very different than some of the other aircraft in style.

[CountZero]

3 hours ago, percydanvers said:

So here's a situation I've been getting myself killed in a lot lately. I'm in a Fw 190 at, say, 2000m and I spot something (let's say a Yak 9 in this case) coming in on my 6:00 at a slight energy advantage. He's not bouncing me where I might try a rolling defense to force an overshoot, but he's not far enough away for me to just run and get away. he bandit is slowly gaining on me.

 

Let's also say for this scenario that there's a particular objective in the area that I'm trying defend, so I'd prefer not to get chased too far away.

 

It seems like whatever I do will get me killed. I can do a split-S into a head on pass, which might work but if I miss he'll be even closer to killing me. I can't climb above him, I might dive below him and escape but again present the opportunity for him to get really close to the kill. Ideally I'd have wingmen around to help, but let's say I don't for this hypothetical. How do you stay alive in this situation? Is it even possible to turn the tables on my pursuer? 

If its SP, you just outturn it, AI cant match human player turn rates no mather if he has better turning airplane, and if you also bring him low to deck he wil probably just crash and kill him self.

 

If in MP you run away, if its A3 you are mutch faster at 1.5-2km alt especialy if you use max power for short time, you get great accelaration and 30-40kmh more speed, then you just use combat power to make steady differance of few kmh. Someone els with better energy will defend objective, also you can type in chat what is your hdg from what area and someone will go get easy kill on him if he falow or you can 2 v 1 him then when he turns to avoid guy who come to hlp, in MP you never do 1 v 1 , and even if you try to do it if its long fight it will turn into more then 1 vs 1 in his or your favor.

Edited July 19, 2022 by CountZero

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

2 basic things to remember with the 190A that will help.

 

-look for headons as much as you can, make the most of that huge firepower and that radial engine which protects you. A 190A has a big advantage over the Yak 9 in an headon.

 

- if possible avoid fighting russian planes around 2500m alt, because you are in the 'supercharger gap'. Notice the MP and how it sudddenly increases around 3000m when the second gear kicks in. Between 2000m and 3000m you are above the first gear crit altitude and will experience a drop in MP even at full power. 

[Dr_Molem]

5 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Look for headons as much as you can, make the most of that huge firepower and that radial engine which protects you. A 190A has a big advantage over the Yak 9 in an headon.

 

I would only do that if I was in a pretty bad situation, as a "last try before I get shot down" when I'm outnumbered while I'm lost in enemy territory, for example. 

 

Otherwise there are so many options to reverse a classic situation without taking so muck risk when flying the FW 190. 

[Youtch]

9 hours ago, CountZero said:

12 hours ago, percydanvers said:

Expand  

If its SP, you just outturn it, AI cant match human player turn rates no mather if he has better turning airplane

I really never understood that part why is it that the AI planes cannot match turn rate?

[von_Tom]

11 hours ago, tattywelshie said:

... they aren’t your standard turning dogfighters...

 

This is an important misconception as there are no such things.  There are aircraft that retain energy better, or climb better, or turn in the horizontal better.  There is always a trade-off and you might get 2 out of 3 if you're lucky.  Some do all 3 to an ok degree but there will always be something that does 1 thing better.

 

There are aircraft that are flown as a turning dogfighter, but that usually means they die. This is where folks can struggle in the transition from twisty turning things to the ones that need a diferent way of flying e.g. FWs and Las.  Height and speed and never do more than a 90 degree turn.  Shallow climb and shallow dive and above all,keep energy high.  Fly with a friend if possible.

 

Maybe not as satisfying as closing in on someone and blasting them, but there is quite a giggle smacking someone down who never saw you.

 

Never turn to death.

 

von Tom

[ShamrockOneFive]

4 hours ago, Youtch said:

I really never understood that part why is it that the AI planes cannot match turn rate?

For the most part they can. But they tend to be a bit inefficient at extracting the most out of a potential turn rate. A human pilot will pull up to the limit and maybe just a bit beyond it with a bit of counter rudder to get a tighter turn/a better snapshot/etc. while the AI don't really make that kind of riskier play.

[CountZero]

5 hours ago, Youtch said:

I really never understood that part why is it that the AI planes cannot match turn rate?

AI just dosent push abow limits, you can see that when you do 1 v 1 vs AI in airplanes where one have better turn times, and no mather what airplane you fly, youll win turn fight, try that vs human on same level of skill like you and better turn airplane will win turn test.

What AI seams to do better then most players is long range shots accuracy, this is where its some chalange to match that ai skill as human player.

Edited July 20, 2022 by CountZero

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Historically the Russians and Brits who encountered solo Fw190s write about how once a 190 is in the defensive they would either run for home or attempt Head Ons. Given that the 190 is limited to its Speed Advantage and has decent Armor and Firepower, it was the logical, albeit risky choice 190 Pilots had to make. 

Forcing the Overshoot I believe is a myth, as the 190 has the highest Wing Loading of the common Single Engined Fighters and thus the highest Stall Speed. 

It simply doesn't outstall a determined Opponent. 

 

The Russians also write about the 190s reluctance to engage in Head-Ons once the 37mm Yaks appear in frequent Service. 

 

My TL;DR: The 190 doesn't work Solo. It is perfect for the Drag&Bag Style of flying with a skilled Rottenflieger or even better a Schwarm of Planes. It is perfectly suited because as long as it is fast, it won't get caught and any dragging aircraft will soon find itself in Gun Range of the Guy bagging him. 

And if both 190s are being chased, they both stay out of Gun Range going level, straight or banking only very slightly and can do a Kriss-Cross taking their chasers out mutually.

 

For Solo flying take a 109. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Dr_Molem]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Historically the Russians and Brits who encountered solo Fw190s write about how once a 190 is in the defensive they would either run for home or attempt Head Ons. 

 

Do you need more examples like this one ? 

 

(March 1942)

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Dr_Molem

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

8 minutes ago, Dr_Molem said:

Do you need more examples like this one ? 

 

(March 1942)

Well, yes. 190s in coordinated Groups are a deadly opponent, as I said. 

 

All of these Reports show the 190 as basically being easy prey once it slows down. The 190s always dive and run if possible. http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html#combat-reports

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/340-gouby-20jan43.jpg

"While leading Sateen Squadron we had just crossed in over the coast of France when we saw about 10 plus F.W.190's at 9 o-clock; They turned away from the bombers and when about a couple of miles in front turned for a head-on attack. I immediately told the Squadron to get down in front of the bombers and was slightly above and in front when they came in. I fired a short burst (1 sec.) at the third F.W.190 and saw a large flash in the engine. He passed very close under me, broke left and went down in flames. This was seen by Charlie 1. We got back in position in front and above the bombers when another 9 F.W.190's attacked. I took the second last enemy aircraft head-on and fired a burst (About 1½ secs.) and saw hits in front of the cock-pit. The enemy aircraft passed under me and I broke sharp left. About 15 seconds later a parachute opened up 5-7000 feet below which was seen by me and my No. 2 (F/O Draper) a few seconds later. The enemy aircraft attempted 3-4 more head-on attacks but as soon as the Squadron turned towards them they veered off. The job was rather big for the few aircraft we had and absolutely no help was given by the Top Cover."

[percydanvers]

17 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

2 basic things to remember with the 190A that will help.

 

-look for headons as much as you can, make the most of that huge firepower and that radial engine which protects you. A 190A has a big advantage over the Yak 9 in an headon.

 

I definitely agree there's nothing better for doing a head-on than a 190, but I hate having to rely on those. It seems like best case scenario you're still giving your opponent a chance to blast you out of the sky with a lucky hit. 

 

So far I've been having some improved luck with the tactics suggested by Shamrock and Dr_Molem. It's easy to forget in the heat of action that a shallow dive can build up a tremendous amount of speed in a shallow dive. 

 

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

My TL;DR: The 190 doesn't work Solo. It is perfect for the Drag&Bag Style of flying with a skilled Rottenflieger or even better a Schwarm of Planes. It is perfectly suited because as long as it is fast, it won't get caught and any dragging aircraft will soon find itself in Gun Range of the Guy bagging him. 

And if both 190s are being chased, they both stay out of Gun Range going level, straight or banking only very slightly and can do a Kriss-Cross taking their chasers out mutually.

 

For Solo flying take a 109. 

 

33 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

All of these Reports show the 190 as basically being easy prey once it slows down. The 190s always dive and run if possible. http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html#combat-reports

 

These have been kind of my troubles. I tend to fly alone a lot in any case, so that's like half of the 190's capability gone. I definitely find the 109 to be a more natural fit for me, but some times getting vaporized by AA or a set on fire by a tail gunner I find myself wishing for something more rugged. 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

52 minutes ago, percydanvers said:

 

I definitely agree there's nothing better for doing a head-on than a 190, but I hate having to rely on those. It seems like best case scenario you're still giving your opponent a chance to blast you out of the sky with a lucky hit. 

 

So far I've been having some improved luck with the tactics suggested by Shamrock and Dr_Molem. It's easy to forget in the heat of action that a shallow dive can build up a tremendous amount of speed in a shallow dive. 

 

 

 

These have been kind of my troubles. I tend to fly alone a lot in any case, so that's like half of the 190's capability gone. I definitely find the 109 to be a more natural fit for me, but some times getting vaporized by AA or a set on fire by a tail gunner I find myself wishing for something more rugged. 

 

About the head ons in a 190A, it should be your plan if you cannot hit and run for some reason, like being damaged, if you dont have the speed/alt advantage or if you are outnumbered and cannot escape. Of course plan A will always be to be at your opponent's 6 or at least avoid being targeted.

 

But if a head on needs to happen, embrace it if you fly a 190A.

[RyanR]

190's actually turn quite well at speeds where other planes.... don't. If you let the bandit stay fast, you can actually gain some angle on him.

 

I'd extend to where you have enough room to do a nose-down reversal. Rather than do a head-on (foolish 90% of the time), keep your nose low and bring the plane up to the vertical after the merge. Now you're going up while the bandit is going down.... if he took the bait.

 

Head-ons are always a very last resort. Yes, a 190 has lotsa guns, but UB's and ShVAK's aren't things to take lightly.

 

-Ryan

[JG13_opcode]

Here's an old video I made about deflection shooting.  In the middle there's a segment where a LaGG catches me off guard while flying solo in a 190A.

 

The above advice to extend for separation is spot-on.  The 190 has decent acceleration and if you put the nose just a bit low your acceleration improves a lot.  Assuming you have a faster top speed than your opponent (not always a given, especially late war against American heavy metal) then if you're out of guns range you can start a shallow climb at your opponent's top speed.  At his level top speed for a given altitude his excess power is 0, so by nosing up to follow your climb physics dictates he must slow down.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by JG13_opcode

[Feldgrun]

Great to see you back, opcode! I hope for more of your excellent instructional videos in the (near) future.

[JG13_opcode]

On 7/23/2022 at 11:45 AM, Feldgrun said:

Great to see you back, opcode! I hope for more of your excellent instructional videos in the (near) future.

Thank you.

 

I mentioned elsewhere that one of the obstacles between me and il2 is that my GPU can't handle recording on my new 1440p display so I need to get a new GPU but I refuse to pay scalper prices.

 

Soon, I hope!

[percydanvers]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:38 PM, JG13_opcode said:

Here's an old video I made about deflection shooting.  In the middle there's a segment where a LaGG catches me off guard while flying solo in a 190A.

 

The above advice to extend for separation is spot-on.  The 190 has decent acceleration and if you put the nose just a bit low your acceleration improves a lot.  Assuming you have a faster top speed than your opponent (not always a given, especially late war against American heavy metal) then if you're out of guns range you can start a shallow climb at your opponent's top speed.  At his level top speed for a given altitude his excess power is 0, so by nosing up to follow your climb physics dictates he must slow down.

 

 

 

Thank you this is amazing Opcode! What you say about accelerating out to the pursuer's max speed and then climbing has been really helpful. I think part of the issue for me is just psychological. I see something behind me and I just immediately want to do something about it, but knowing that I can climb at at an opponent's max speed kind of helps me avoid falling into that trap. 

[JG13_opcode]

7 hours ago, percydanvers said:

 

Thank you this is amazing Opcode! What you say about accelerating out to the pursuer's max speed and then climbing has been really helpful. I think part of the issue for me is just psychological. I see something behind me and I just immediately want to do something about it, but knowing that I can climb at at an opponent's max speed kind of helps me avoid falling into that trap. 

 

Cheers.  It's not a panacea (climbing at high speed, that is) but it's a good thing to have in your repertoire.  As for the 190 I find that it takes a different mindset than the 109, and making the change back and forth is easy for some people and different for others.

 

Back when Pacific Fighters was new there was a popular server called War Clouds that had, more or less, the same plane set on every mission.  The goal was to have a consistent mid-to-late-war semi-historical matchup with an emphasis on balance so that pilot skill could be the determinant of success.  Well, there was an (in)famous guy who was a well-known 190 pilot that started a big rant thread on the WC forums about how 109 jockeys (of which I was one at the time) were always stealing his kills.  The thread devolved into flaming pretty quickly but one quote always stuck with me and it was something along the lines of this:

 

The Fw 190 needs a lot more space when fighting than the Bf 109 does.  If you see a 190 being followed by a hostile aircraft the 190 driver might not actually need (or want) any help.  Ask first before you jump in, because the 190 might be extending and blah blah blah.

 

Anyways the point is that the "room" that he was referring to is the room to extend at high speed to gain or maintain an energy advantage.  I used to get wrecked flying the 190 because I'd fly it like a 109 and those aren't appropriate tactics.  I'm far from the best multiplayer pilots but in my experience the 190 benefits from big, long, high-energy looping extensions in a way that doesn't necessarily benefit the 109.  When I win a 1v1 contest in the 190 the tacview recording tends to look smooth and graceful. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by JG13_opcode
I accidentally a word

[percydanvers]

1 hour ago, JG13_opcode said:

 

Cheers.  It's not a panacea (climbing at high speed, that is) but it's a good thing to have in your repertoire.  As for the 190 I find that it takes a different mindset than the 109, and making the change back and forth is easy for some people and different for others.

 

Back when Pacific Fighters was new there was a popular server called War Clouds that had, more or less, the same plane set on every mission.  The goal was to have a consistent mid-to-late-war semi-historical matchup with an emphasis on balance so that pilot skill could be the determinant of success.  Well, there was an (in)famous guy who was a well-known 190 pilot that started a big rant thread on the WC forums about how 109 jockeys (of which I was one at the time) were always stealing his kills.  The thread devolved into flaming pretty quickly but one quote always stuck with me and it was something along the lines of this:

 

The Fw 190 needs a lot more space when fighting than the Bf 109 does.  If you see a 190 being followed a hostile aircraft the 190 driver might not actually need (or want) any help.  Ask first before you jump in, because the 190 might be extending and blah blah blah.

 

Anyways the point is that the "room" that he was referring to is the room to extend at high speed to gain or maintain an energy advantage.  I used to get wrecked flying the 190 because I'd fly it like a 109 and those aren't appropriate tactics.  I'm far from the best multiplayer pilots but in my experience the 190 benefits from big, long, high-energy looping extensions in a way that doesn't necessarily benefit the 109.  When I win a 1v1 contest in the 190 the tacview recording tends to look smooth and graceful. 

 

Yes! I think this is key. I've come to realize that it's important to think in terms of "turn space" instead of "turn rate." The 190 can do a lot of manuevering stuff if it has the space to do them at the speeds it needs. 

 

It is definitely a different mindset between the two. The 109 feels a lot more natural to me, and every time I fly the 190 I always have this sinking feeling that I'm going to get shot down, but by the numbers I usually do slightly better with the Focke Wulf. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

18 hours ago, percydanvers said:

 

Yes! I think this is key. I've come to realize that it's important to think in terms of "turn space" instead of "turn rate." The 190 can do a lot of manuevering stuff if it has the space to do them at the speeds it needs. 

 

It is definitely a different mindset between the two. The 109 feels a lot more natural to me, and every time I fly the 190 I always have this sinking feeling that I'm going to get shot down, but by the numbers I usually do slightly better with the Focke Wulf. 

The 190 is great in Pre-La-5FN Planesets and pretty much unbeatable as long as you remember to loiter at 2000m or below or 4000m and above. Between 2000 and 4000m the Supercharger severely limits your Power. Ideally you never fight at these Altitudes. 

While on the Offensive you never go into Emergency Power. You Reserve that Power for running away.

When the Enemy does an evasive Turn you never ever follow it. You also never ever go vertical. 

The only Manouver you should limit yourself to is to do a shallow Zoom Climb at a minimum Speed of 500km/h IAS below 2000m and 450km/h above 4000m and entering a very gentle bank angle not exceeding 20°. 

You keep your Target in sight and take your time turning around and then do another Attack from a shallow Dive ideally at 650km/h. 

 

Should your Target do a lag pursuit, fly straight, build Distance and do Head-Ons.