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One year later: the relative effectiveness of the .50 in multiplayer

[F.Circus]sith1144

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[F.Circus]sith1144

[F.Circus]sith1144

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"Oh no, not another .50 cal thread"
I agree. I am not interested in discussing whether the .50 *should* be more or less effective, so please don't start that discussion. I am just interested in how effective they currently actually are in a live multiplayer environment. So I repeat: please refrain from discussing whether its accurate to its *historical performance* as we do not have similar data IRL. With that out of the way, lets dive in.

So, a year ago I was curious how effective the much-maligned browning .50 caliber machine guns actually were. This was before the patch that updated their effectiveness, and now that its been about a year I decided to have a look again to see how things have changed. I downloaded the "Offensive ammo breakdown" from the Finnish Virtual Pilots multiplayer server, as its one of the most active servers and the mission design has been pretty consistent for a year so that can be eliminated as a factor. I then collated and sorted the data going back to April this year and broke it down. This will be presented as such: the Nth percentile of kills required X or fewer rounds to achieve. So if you got 100 kills and 50 took 10 rounds each and 50 took 100 rounds each the 50th percentile (also known as the median) would be 10 rounds, and the 75th 100.

Note that no efforts have been made to discount "false" kills where you got a hit or two and the enemy crashed on landing an hour later. It is impossible to do this based on the data I have.

Old and new P-51s and P-47s hits required
image.png.a5e664de0a9306c19f9a4fa019212997.png

(note: the P-47 vs he-111 has not been counted because these encounters were in the single digits)

 

So, against single engines the 25th percentile has not changed significantly, but the 75th percentile takes substantially fewer hits. Large targets require a lot more hits however; this is probably due to the increased dispersion meaning more bullets strike non-essential parts rather than anything about the damage model. Overall I would say the .50 has become more effective. Of course, comparing it to itself is one thing, how does it compare to other aircraft? My point of comparison will be the La-5 (both types). This is because the La-5 has two cannons, a high-explosive-only belt, and no machine guns. This last part is important; it should be no surprise to anyone that cannons are more effective per hit than the .50, but we can compare the "time on target" required to score a kill. That is, the time in seconds you need to have all your guns aligned on target to score the required number of hits. I have calculated the time on target based on the 25, 50, and 75th percentiles based on stock guns (so the P51D has 6, and the P-47 has 8.) I used the rates of fire found here.

 

P-51s, P-47s, and La-5s
image.png.eff92a0d0ea2e8c8ff309dee69221bee.png

note: this chart is based on having all of your guns hitting the target at the same time. obviously, especially with wing mounted guns, its not exactly unthinkable you'll only be hitting with a part of your weapons bank. This may account for some of the differences between the P-51D and P-51B. Its also the general performance, not *your* performance, do not take this as an indicator whether you should be taking 4 or 6 guns.

 

In conclusion/TL;DR

the .50 has gotten a little punchier and kills enemy pilots more often, especially against the 109, but has also gotten worse against big targets, probably due to the increased dispersion. (after all, people probably shoot big targets further out; they're big so easy to hit and have turrets so its dangerous to get too close)

And I repeat: you cannot use this to make any claims about how it relates to historical effectiveness, there's no data to compare it to. what we can do however is talk about why these changes have happened and what their significance is.  Are there any other aircraft you'd like to see broken down like this? The most interesting part to me is how the P-51B requires significantly fewer hits to score a kill than the P-51D. I assume player skill is a factor as more dedicated players are more likely to have picked up the Normandy preorder than casual players, and perhaps it ultimately comes down to getting the one hit that really counts and having more guns just means you throw away more ammo for the same result.
 

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Asgar

Asgar

Posted
Posted

Looking at the first table, I'm wondering if people flying the P-51B are just better at aiming OR... people take about the same amout of time to notice they've done significant damage (fire developing, engine stopping etc.) and due to the P-51B having less guns, they put less rounds in. Which would mean, you actually need less hits to inflict a killing blow but you need about the same amout of time to notice it. Is it clear what I'm trying to say?

Mtnbiker1998

Mtnbiker1998

Posted
Posted

Interesting, good job on putting this together!

[F.Circus]sith1144

[F.Circus]sith1144

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14 minutes ago, Asgar said:

Looking at the first table, I'm wondering if people flying the P-51B are just better at aiming OR... people take about the same amout of time to notice they've done significant damage (fire developing, engine stopping etc.) and due to the P-51B having less guns, they put less rounds in. Which would mean, you actually need less hits to inflict a killing blow but you need about the same amout of time to notice it. Is it clear what I'm trying to say?

that makes sense to me! It could well be that the B, with 4 guns, commits less "overkill." It would be really interesting to see data for the P-51D with 4 guns only, but I dont think theres a way to gather that data at this time. Tho I do think its in the logs somewhere...

Voyager

Voyager

Posted
Posted

Very interesting. I wonder how one could track their own personal performance and hits to shots ratio? 

 

Based on one's accuracy, it does seem like the extended 50 cam belts may be worth leaving behind.

 

I also wonder what it would take to check this in the Rise of Flight setup? It would be interesting to see just how many rounds it takes to kill in those platforms. I've noticed it seems to take me about 200 rounds per kill there, but that's going to be a combination of my personally gun meet skill (or lack there-of) and the vast tracts of not much important those planes have. 

Sketch

Sketch

Posted
Posted

I won't debate whether .50 cals should be adjusted or not. However, I will post my evidence supporting OP that .50 cals make more pilot kills than plane parts falling off/planes engines dying. These logs are from my time flying last week on Combat Box in the P51D. I made 17 kills, and all but two were pilot kills.

 

 

Here is my sortie list, so you know I'm not cherry picking my sorties. This is all of my sorties: https://combatbox.net/en/sorties/376/Sketch/?tour=48

 

 

Conversely, I have sorties this month in Axis planes. In those planes, I typically shoot off a wing or do significantly enough damage to force the pilot to eject or crash into the ground. Here are my Dora sorties for the month:

 

 

For clarity, I'm not trying to brag or boast about my sorties, but instead present evidence to support OP's claim that .50 cals cause more enemy pilot kills than significant plane damage.

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BubiHUN

BubiHUN

Posted
Posted

been stating this for a year

12 minutes ago, Sketch said:

I won't debate whether .50 cals should be adjusted or not. However, I will post my evidence supporting OP that .50 cals make more pilot kills than plane parts falling off/planes engines dying. These logs are from my time flying last week on Combat Box in the P51D. I made 17 kills, and all but two were pilot kills.

 

 

Here is my sortie list, so you know I'm not cherry picking my sorties. This is all of my sorties: https://combatbox.net/en/sorties/376/Sketch/?tour=48

 

 

Conversely, I have sorties this month in Axis planes. In those planes, I typically shoot off a wing or do significantly enough damage to force the pilot to eject or crash into the ground. Here are my Dora sorties for the month:

 

 

For clarity, I'm not trying to brag or boast about my sorties, but instead present evidence to support OP's claim that .50 cals cause more enemy pilot kills than significant plane damage.

 

Thad

Thad

Posted
Posted

Salutations,

 

In the recent past, months and months of post decried the lack of effectiveness of the 50 cal. round. This rounds effectiveness was eventually modified by the developers to make it more potent.

 

Now there is complaining about how overpowered the 50 cal. round is. I suppose if the complaining continues long enough in this vein the developers can change things again and perhaps hit on the perfect level of effectiveness for the round. [sarcasm intended]

?

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354thFG_Panda_

354thFG_Panda_

Posted
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

In the recent past, months and months of post decried the lack of effectiveness of the 50 cal. round. This rounds effectiveness was eventually modified by the developers to make it more potent.

 

Now there is complaining about how overpowered the 50 cal. round is. I suppose if the complaining continues long enough in this vein the developers can change things again and perhaps hit on the perfect level of effectiveness for the round. [sarcasm intended]

?

"This rounds effectiveness was eventually modified by the developers to make it more potent."

 

They corrected the mass, velocity and dispersion in the ammo files based on historical values they are supposed to have because someone spotted a discrepancy and made a bug report. They were not "nerfed" or "buffed" cause of balance or whining. Unless people have documents to go against it they will have to face the increased dispersion and penetration of the 50cals.

Edited by [=RMAS=]theRedPanda
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354thFG_Leifr

354thFG_Leifr

Posted
Posted

It is standard procedure to move any, and all, threads pertaining to the accuracy of the flight model or damage model in to the sinbin. I'm actually surprised that the B-26 thread is still going...

CountZero

CountZero

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sketch said:

I won't debate whether .50 cals should be adjusted or not. However, I will post my evidence supporting OP that .50 cals make more pilot kills than plane parts falling off/planes engines dying. These logs are from my time flying last week on Combat Box in the P51D. I made 17 kills, and all but two were pilot kills.

 

 

Here is my sortie list, so you know I'm not cherry picking my sorties. This is all of my sorties: https://combatbox.net/en/sorties/376/Sketch/?tour=48

 

 

Conversely, I have sorties this month in Axis planes. In those planes, I typically shoot off a wing or do significantly enough damage to force the pilot to eject or crash into the ground. Here are my Dora sorties for the month:

 

 

For clarity, I'm not trying to brag or boast about my sorties, but instead present evidence to support OP's claim that .50 cals cause more enemy pilot kills than significant plane damage.

This is not suprising when airplane armed with only AP ammo dont do any big damage to force player to bail he will shoot untill he kills pilot, so more PK happends.

 

And when you have HE and you hit enemy airplane with it , there is more options, that ammo in this game is best ammo in world it makes big damage to airplane making them uncontrolable with even smallest cal that have HE and it can cause ricoshe damage that can even kill pilots if you hit tip of wings and so on...

 

lack of pilot protection on enemy airplane is not reason why .50 AP only airplanes get pk on enemys, its lack of AP ammo realisam in this games DM what is making PK more offten resoult that ends fight, as that is only way to remove enemy from fighting in airplane hit by mullti AP .50. Its same thing when every kill was wing fall, it was not ammo problem it was simple DM problem, then they buff wings and now you see simple DM problems in other things, so untill they finish fuel and what ever update they plan to do after it, untill DM revisions get on to do list, nothing gona change, HE wil be king, and AP is only good for PK.

Edited by CountZero
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ACG_Cass

ACG_Cass

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, CountZero said:

its lack of AP ammo realisam in this games DM what is making PK more offten resoult that ends fight,

I think this is a point a lot of people miss. Those pilot kill percentages don't seem too high to me at all. The .50 cals from the B17s were hated by the Luftwaffe pilots because of how many pilots they killed, let alone a barrage of 6 or 8 of them firing from directly behind you.

 

Pilot kill percentages are higher than they should be because pilots stay in their aircraft far longer than they would IRL against 50 cal equipped planes. If a Bf109 has 45 12.7mm AP rounds in it, it should not be operating anywhere near effectively yet there can be almost zero performance penalty in IL2 when that's the case.

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ACG_Bob122

ACG_Bob122

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, ACG_Cass said:

I think this is a point a lot of people miss. Those pilot kill percentages don't seem too high to me at all. The .50 cals from the B17s were hated by the Luftwaffe pilots because of how many pilots they killed, let alone a barrage of 6 or 8 of them firing from directly behind you.

 

Pilot kill percentages are higher than they should be because pilots stay in their aircraft far longer than they would IRL against 50 cal equipped planes. If a Bf109 has 45 12.7mm AP rounds in it, it should not be operating anywhere near effectively yet there can be almost zero performance penalty in IL2 when that's the case.

I like flying the P51, but I just get so frustrated with the guns, so I don't fly it much. I honestly think the 2 MG131s on Late 109s and 190s are better than 6 50 cals or even 8. The other day I fought a K4 in a Tempest and he hit me with 1 MG131 HE round in the wing and I had to bail out because of the loss of performance. I just want to be able to shoot a plane in the wings with 50 cals and it actually matter to the other plane. I am thinking of another fight I had, I saw a P51 sitting right behind a 109 just blasting him. He used all his ammo on the 109 and it was leaking every fluid. The 109 just disengaged and tried to run. It took me like 3 minutes to run down him in a Tempest even though he was hit over 50 times with 50 cals, I then gave him a .5sec burst and he died. Am I crazy thinking that it would slow down a plane to get shot with a 50cal?

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-332FG-Zephyr096

-332FG-Zephyr096

Posted
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This issue is not that PKs are happening but that it is very hard to get a kill without a PK with the .50 cal.

As long as your pilot doesn't get hit, generally being sprayed with .50 cal is not concerning in Il-2.

IRL .50s had AP-I and Incendiary rounds as well as AP, and therefore were more likely to cause fires. Additionally, the structural and aerodynamic damage caused by rounds tumbling after striking the airframe or armor seems to be significantly undermodeled.

The data in this post seems to support it, although I would also love to see it compared to the effectiveness of German guns and Russian/British fighters equipped with cannons.

If German/Russian/British aircraft all have much lower % of PK because their guns are doing way more damage to the aircraft themselves, that would be a glaring issue IMO. Cannons SHOULD be more effective than MG, but considering the power of the M2 .50, I think especially the 20MM is a bit too strong in comparison (more that the .50 is too weak, but I digress).

My experience as a mostly-allies flyer then swapping to German for last week's friday night flight included two sorties taking 50+ .50 cal rounds. One of those two was over 100 in a Ju-88, where I would have ditched and survived if not for the game's strange ways of treating hard landings; the other was a 110 sortie where I took around 60 rounds of .50 cal resulting in a single engine failure but no other concerning damage to my aircraft. This generally lines up with my experiences flying German. I'm not a great pilot and get shot down a lot, but flying German I generally have a lot more time being shot at before I go down regardless of aircraft.

Normally no matter the aircraft on the Allied side, just a couple hits from 13mm guns are enough to completely destroy the airworthiness of my aircraft and force a bailout. I fly a ton of P-47 and a good bit of Spitfire, with the occasional P-51, P-38, or A-20 sorties. I don't think I've taken double-digit hits in the P-47 without it taking my full concentration to keep it under control, and usually in under 10 hits I am bailing out due to the level of damage to my airframe. The P-38 is even worse.
 

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LR.Tincannavy

LR.Tincannavy

Posted
Posted

During these struggling times I have a favorite scripture that comes to mind: "Our Boolet who art in gun, AP be thy name. Our bullet come, it's damage done. To structure as it does to aero. give us this day or daily 0.1% damage report. And forgive us our aim, as we forgive those who aim against us. And lead us not into empty airframe, but deliver us a pilot snipe. For thy is the only way, with the DM, and engine limitations. Please stop."- Jason 1:1

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=[TIA]=I-Fly-Central

=[TIA]=I-Fly-Central

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Posted

?

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356thFS_Piranha

356thFS_Piranha

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?

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Barnacles

Barnacles

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Posted

?

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86th_Buzzi

86th_Buzzi

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?

 

Edited by 354th_Buzzi
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CSW_Tommy544

CSW_Tommy544

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?

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SAS_Storebror

SAS_Storebror

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And the folded hands shall tell us what? ?

 

:drinks:

Mike

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ROCKET_KNUT

ROCKET_KNUT

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That praying is the last resort in this toppic. ?

[DBS]TH0R

[DBS]TH0R

Posted
Posted

?

 

(this emoji could also pass as "high five", just FYI)

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ROCKET_KNUT

ROCKET_KNUT

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Praying, Hi Fiveing or whatever. I promise to get really excited if those improvements get implemented into the game. "When Rocket, it is 'When they get implemented...' " Of course "When"... ?

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