The spitfire problem

[Youtch]

Dear expert pilots,

 

The usual climb+turn german fighter tactics which is so effective to get rid of/kill P51-Tempest and 80% of allied planes (if they are fool enough to get in this energy trap) seems to be totally useless against Spitfires, and even more (as I learned at a great cost) is leading to an almost guaranteed death.

 

The spits have an uncanny ability to turn and climb like no other planes.

 

I am referring here about planes entering dogfight as a similar altitude / energy level, and german planes such as Dora or G6-Late.

 

So, my question is how to get rid of a Spitfire problem:

- Do you try to enforce systematically 1 circle fight?

- Do you engage in scisors just hoping a roll will give you a nice reversal and snapshot?

- Do you go vertical?

- Do you just flee and pray for your life?

anything else?

 

 

Many thanks in advance for sharing your advice,

y.

[von_Tom]

 

Don't engage a Spit without more energy/height, and don't hang around if you don't hit it in the first pass or you don't have a friend with you.  Pure hit and run unless you zoom and see it doing a horizontal turn beneath you.  Then you might get another shot.  If you do get stuck you could always try to dump all energy and go to a hanging turn fight, but that way leaves you open for everyone else to shoot at.

 

Spits are pretty much as powerful as their contemporary foe yet that big wing does give good lift/turn.  It also means it is not so good at very slow speeds, but you don't want to be in that situation anyway as their friend will see you as a lovely slow target.

 

In very simple terms - have way more energy then hit and run.  Do not engage at co-alt/co-energy state.

 

von Tom

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by von_Tom

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

https://youtu.be/hjz8pAGRvsg

[354thFG_Panda_]

3 hours ago, Youtch said:

Dear expert pilots,

 

The usual climb+turn german fighter tactics which is so effective to get rid of/kill P51-Tempest and 80% of allied planes (if they are fool enough to get in this energy trap) seems to be totally useless against Spitfires, and even more (as I learned at a great cost) is leading to an almost guaranteed death.

 

The spits have an uncanny ability to turn and climb like no other planes.

 

I am referring here about planes entering dogfight as a similar altitude / energy level, and german planes such as Dora or G6-Late.

 

So, my question is how to get rid of a Spitfire problem:

- Do you try to enforce systematically 1 circle fight?

- Do you engage in scisors just hoping a roll will give you a nice reversal and snapshot?

- Do you go vertical?

- Do you just flee and pray for your life?

anything else?

 

 

Many thanks in advance for sharing your advice,

y.

 

First would like to know what spitfires you are facing and what modifications they have?

 

For using the Dora, it is generally a fair amount faster than most of the spits in top speed level flight at below like 6km altitude. If you are going to get near a spit or engage co alt, make sure you have speed to use already so you can run/dive away immediately, build separation then shallow climb to end up in a better state so you can take him out. Do not engage with it in a turning contest. You may be lucky in a scissors fight but if they have clipped wings the chances of winning that way are reduced.

 

With the 109G6L you can dogfight the spit for a bit, the two are similar, but eventually the spit will gain the upper hand so you have to dispose of them very quickly. 

 

Generally avoid steep angle climbs and low speed envelope of flight.

 

One thing the spit has which is quite a weakness is that it's tail is extremely fragile. If you can land a single 20mm shell quickly the fight is pretty much over. The control of the spitfire is sensitive and when the tail is hit it either goes into a spin or the pilot has do extreme correction to make it fly straight, it becomes unstable.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by [=RMAS=]theRedPanda

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, [=RMAS=]theRedPanda said:

With the 109G6L you can dogfight the spit for a bit, the two are similar, but eventually the spit will gain the upper hand so you have to dispose of them very quickly. 

 

Generally avoid steep angle climbs and low speed envelope of flight.

I was under the impression that bf109 and Dora were more at ease in vertical plane than Spit. Is it a misconception?

 

I am not talking about climb here but slightly vertical loops / high yo-yos.

[von_Tom]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

I was under the impression that bf109 and Dora were more at ease in vertical plane than Spit. Is it a misconception?

 

 

 

 

Compare and contrast - 

 

 

You'll see that the climb stats are very close at say 3,000m for the Spit IX and contemporary LW aircraft.  The 109 probably hangs a little bit better at the top of the climb, but I tend not to rely on that as it usually means someone is below, firing at you.

 

Fly every single aircraft the same, as you should fly a FW190, and you cannot go wrong.  Height and energy, and boom and (shallow) zoom.  And fly with a friend.

 

von Tom

 

[MasterBaiter]

What Panda said. Also the Spit is one of the best climber, so dont climb without separation.

[Youtch]

51 minutes ago, JG300_Winterz said:

Also the Spit is one of the best climber, so dont climb without separation

But climbing and going full vertical/looping is not exactly the same thing.

 

I understand that what makes a good climber is strong engine plus good lift. Here the Spit is king.

 

I understand that what makes a plane good in vertical shall be low weight and good energy retention.  Maybe quicker acceleration has a role to play, but i don t know if these specs are captured anywhere.

 

For vertical loop, the conservation of energy for the bf109 G6 late shall be better than the Spit.

 

I was under the impression that Spitfire were bleeding energy faster in vertical than Bf109 and that Spitfire could conserve better its energy in horizontal than bf109.

 

Going full vertical 1 circle after merge seems to have given me better outcomes and shoot opportunity against spit than other approaches, at least in duel.

[[CPT]Crunch]

You may be better at energy retention, but the guys who love spitfires are generally pretty good at reading your maneuver and beating you to the punch.  Bet they're better at doing tighter loops, and that's all you really need.

[354thFG_Panda_]

18 hours ago, Youtch said:

But climbing and going full vertical/looping is not exactly the same thing.

 

I understand that what makes a good climber is strong engine plus good lift. Here the Spit is king.

 

I understand that what makes a plane good in vertical shall be low weight and good energy retention.  Maybe quicker acceleration has a role to play, but i don t know if these specs are captured anywhere.

 

For vertical loop, the conservation of energy for the bf109 G6 late shall be better than the Spit.

 

I was under the impression that Spitfire were bleeding energy faster in vertical than Bf109 and that Spitfire could conserve better its energy in horizontal than bf109.

 

Going full vertical 1 circle after merge seems to have given me better outcomes and shoot opportunity against spit than other approaches, at least in duel.

For this it really depends on the spitfires in question and their mods. The Mk.IX you can probably get away with but if it has 150oct it will keep up easily and especially at steeper angles. The Mk.XIV vertical/energy retention is insanely good providing the pilot is accustomed to the torque and is steady in turns. The five bladed prop and the extra power really pull it around. Though there is a catch with the griffons, if they go below like 190mph they get sluggish and feel like they "sink". 

Edited July 15, 2022 by [=RMAS=]theRedPanda

[CAFulcrum]

Use a wingman?

[Noisemaker]

I fail to see a problem.

[Feldgrun]

55 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

I fail to see a problem.

 

Maybe you are the problem!

 

[Youtch]

I noticed that AI and non-AI planes, as a defensive move to dodge a boom and zoom attack, tends to go vertical at the last moment, which seems to be much more effective than turning sharp at the last moment (as this is easily counter by a high yo-yo). Each time it happens it takes me kind of off-guard.

 

Is going vertical to dodge a Boom & Zoom attack a valid defense tactic?

How to counter this type of last minute vertical move defence when you are in the final phae of a dive to attack?

[RossMarBow]

Dora is a bad plane

 

Spit out climbs you over short distances

 

But you beat it in a long slow climb

 

Try actually fighting them and shooting them instead of running away

 

Also Germans are better at high speed in every measure so going into a dive can be a easy win if you can get him to black out 

Edited July 16, 2022 by RossMarBow

[CSW_Hot_Dog]

I really don't know what makes you think that the Bf-109 should be better than the top allied planes like Spitfire, Mustang, Tempest. Bf-109s are even overmodeled in the game and you still complain?, actually Bf-109 was underdog in the second half of the war... Bf-109s were considered as "easy kill" by allies in 1943-1945...

The fact that a combat method was used and described by some pilots in some books on eastern front against VVS aircraft, where Bf-109 had clear and huge advantage agains Yaks, Migs and Laggs does not mean that you can use it against the top RAF and USAAF aircraft. In the game, in most parameters the Bf-109 is actually very slightly better than the Allied opponents, but this is not enough to thought you just put the throttle full forward and climb out off the spitfire in a few seconds?. And I repeat, in reality even the allied planes were better than the Bf-109, which unfortunately is not the case in the game...So  if you encounter Spitfire in Bf-109 without energy advantage in second half of the war and you loose, that is actually extremely all right and no problem there. Sadly in the game with good to very good Bf-109 pilot, its not the case...

 

Just today, angry after yesterday, I did some tests on which altitude which plane would climb with maximum effort under the same conditions. Just as high as possible anyhow possible...

Bf-109K4 = 11 300 - 11 500m
Bf-109G = 11 150m
Fw-190D9 = 11 000m

P-47D28 = 11 000m
P-51D15 = 10 800m
Spitfire Mk.IX HF merlin 70 hihg alt plane with high alt engine = 10 900m
Spitfire Mk.XIV = 10 800m
P-38L = 11 150m

 

I just have to laugh at that?

Edited July 17, 2022 by CSW_Hot_Dog

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, CSW_Hot_Dog said:

Bf-109s were considered as "easy kill" by allies in 1943-1945

This is a daring statement and even more daring extrapolation, and would need to be supported by some facts and figures.

 

The failure of Luftwaffe is mostly due to one simple explanation, logistic collapse, not being able to keep up with the production, with the training and fuel need vs British+US+Soviet brute force, making german fighters outnumbered 1 to 10 or even 1 to 20 in the late war.

 

I have never read that they would be easy kills in a one to one situation, or that German planes were becoming technically inferior to Allied planes, mostly the opposite.

Doras, K4, Me262 (or even Ta152), for as much advanced technically as they might be, came up too late and in too little number to make any difference.

But engaged in a fair combat, or even with ratios 1 to 2 or 1 to 3, they were still bloody effective till very late in the war.

 

As a test you can try one spit XIV vs 10 Bf109 K4 and see how long it survives. I might be wrong but I bet the spit will be what you call an "easy kill".

 

This does not change the fact that Spits were superb machines, and fierce opponents, also probably not as much feared as the mighty Tempest, but each plane has its strong points and its weaker points, and there is no perfect plane.

 

There is always some weaknesses that could be exploited tactically by a smart pilot, this is what i was willing to explore in this thread.
 

 

[ZachariasX]

On 7/14/2022 at 11:08 AM, Youtch said:

- Do you try to enforce systematically 1 circle fight?

The Spit kills everything in a two circle fight. You simply don't rate fight a Spit. Any Spit. Else, you just get what you deserve. Conversely, the 109 is about the best one circle fighter we have in the game (especially the F4 that makes this most accessible of all 109's). In a 109, if you fight the Spit in two circle fight, it will outrate you, improve his energy situation compared to you and he will kill you (unless he is a bad pilot). In one circle fght, you can pull higher AoA in the 109 and have better opportunities getting a shot. A Spit pilot that dares to takes the 109 in one circle has to be very good to survive this unnecessary stupidity. Or think very little of you in the 109. There are many confident Spit pilots that can be tempted in a one circle fight through a rolling scissor. That is when you get them.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 11:08 AM, Youtch said:

- Do you engage in scisors just hoping a roll will give you a nice reversal and snapshot?

You can do this against the Spit V that already totally depleted his energy state. The Mk.9 and the Mk.14 can (in practise) always raise their nose to kill you. If the pilot is good. What you can do is rolling scissor forcing a one circle fight after a break if he attacks you (and you survive that) to force an overshoot. You never do a turn reversal unless you are far enough above the nose of your quarry for him not being able to raise his nose anymore.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 11:08 AM, Youtch said:

- Do you go vertical?

I try to avoid that. It is usually the easiest shot to take for anyone behind you. You are slowest, least maneuvreable and the largest target. Vertical is only an option during the separation after a merge with both panes going cold to transform excess speed, i.e. when you are not defensive. If you are defensive, you turn level or if possible downward, always cutting throttle to maximize rate.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 11:08 AM, Youtch said:

- Do you just flee and pray for your life?

I died many, many times in the game. Yet I have not prayed a single time. I have used bad words though. And why flee when you know the other will chase you across the whole map? Settle things then and there. Running is for repositioning after a botched initial attack, while the other is still defensive and cannot follow you. Else, you're dead anyway. I rather die fighting than running.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 11:08 AM, Youtch said:

anything else?

Force or tempt the other guy in a fight that suits you. This comes usually down to a choice of 1 vs 2 circle fights.

 

If it is a Tempest, then you are screwed, but this makes it more rewarding if you still can take down that pest.

 

Also, planes bleed energy differently at different speeds. The Spit and the Yak require little power to maintain a certain (low) speed in a turn, while heavier planes will expend more energy at that speed. In a baby Spit, you'll always be milking the other guys energy if he dares to turn with yith you or even rate fight you at slower speeds. Conversely, a gentle turn in a baby Spit will bleed more energy at high speed relative to a higher powered oponent. This means, in the higher powered fighter, you have to fight at high speed to stay above your mark. Going slow is no option, as that more than cancels your power advantage. In the lower powered (lighter!) fighter, you must tempt the other to fly to slow in the fight. This may sound trivial, but at low speed, the light plane with a light spanwise loading will have more excessive energy than a high powered, heavier plane. All this becomes especially relevant if the defensive player can (survive long enough and) drag the attacker down on the deck. Comparative energy management then will decide who ends up on top of the other an can take the killing shot. Done right the lower powered fighter may well end up above the higher powered one.

[Youtch]

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Vertical is only an option during the separation after a merge with both panes going cold to transform excess speed, i.e. when you are not defensive.

I was referring after merge indeed.

[CountZero]

8 hours ago, CSW_Hot_Dog said:

I really don't know what makes you think that the Bf-109 should be better than the top allied planes like Spitfire, Mustang, Tempest. Bf-109s are even overmodeled in the game and you still complain?, actually Bf-109 was underdog in the second half of the war... Bf-109s were considered as "easy kill" by allies in 1943-1945...

The fact that a combat method was used and described by some pilots in some books on eastern front against VVS aircraft, where Bf-109 had clear and huge advantage agains Yaks, Migs and Laggs does not mean that you can use it against the top RAF and USAAF aircraft. In the game, in most parameters the Bf-109 is actually very slightly better than the Allied opponents, but this is not enough to thought you just put the throttle full forward and climb out off the spitfire in a few seconds?. And I repeat, in reality even the allied planes were better than the Bf-109, which unfortunately is not the case in the game...So  if you encounter Spitfire in Bf-109 without energy advantage in second half of the war and you loose, that is actually extremely all right and no problem there. Sadly in the game with good to very good Bf-109 pilot, its not the case...

 

Just today, angry after yesterday, I did some tests on which altitude which plane would climb with maximum effort under the same conditions. Just as high as possible anyhow possible...

Bf-109K4 = 11 300 - 11 500m
Bf-109G = 11 150m
Fw-190D9 = 11 000m

P-47D28 = 11 000m
P-51D15 = 10 800m
Spitfire Mk.IX HF merlin 70 hihg alt plane with high alt engine = 10 900m
Spitfire Mk.XIV = 10 800m
P-38L = 11 150m

 

I just have to laugh at that?

 

190A3 laughing at all of them from 12k+ like true high alt interceptor we know it was from history lol

 

in game where 234 is fighter interceptor, 190A3 primery high alt airplane better then late war stuff, tempest as fast interceptor loses wings like they are not even atached and lagg3 is best allied roller you kow how things are going... fantasy even WT devs would be proud off

Edited July 17, 2022 by CountZero

[ZachariasX]

47 minutes ago, Youtch said:

I was referring after merge indeed.

Then I do it when entering a merge with lots of excessive speed, as it helps braking you down and gives you the option to enter a high yo-yo. Chances are that you can start in an offensive position again. If the other pulls through faster, you‘re doomed. Never underestimate the Lagg-3 in the game doing that if flown competently.

 

If I enter at normal combat speed, I usually go horizontal. With a rate fighter like the Spit, I pull until speed is bled to maximum turn rate and aim for the two circle fight and try to place the enemy in the control zone (high position in the front window, lag pursuit). This will bleed the other’s energy. Then trade the relative energy gain for altitude rather than closure. It is the excess in altitude that will allow you to pull him into the sights, almost regardless of what his ride is, especially on the deck. At altitude, this is where the toilet bowl fight starts, him spiralling down on the deck and you just following, but above him. Then continue the fight as described.

 

Any fighter can turn into the other if you can take the momentum of the dive on someone that can‘t dive. (Because he‘s on the deck.)

 

With an angles fighter like the 109, I go for maximum angles  while letting the speed bleed at idle throttle, seeking the prop hanging slow speed one circle fight.

 

This is all 1 vs 1 stuff. If you however have a wingman, it‘s all hit and run from a position of altitude. This keeps you untouchable for anyone not on coms with friends. Loners like me have no hope online other than going defensively until they are down at the deck. There fights get more even but you force head on shots and collisions, as the other really has not much of an option other than that. Fact is, anyone with a gun that can kill you and is aware of you can be a mortal danger. It is always up to the offensive party to decide how much they want to press their luck.

[Youtch]

This is exactly what I was looking for, how to keep on the offensive against Spits!

 

Many thanks!