=IL2AU=ToknMurican Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 I'm revisiting the sim after being away, my controls unplugged. Virpil released a new update to their software that enhanced the functionality of my throttle.. and what I'm going to say might sound backwards to you, but, I have a much easier time binding my controls in DCS World. I apologize.. I know the two of you don't like it when we talk about the "competition".. but to me you aren't competition. You're the only options in a limited market for semi-realistic combat flight simulation and I have the time and desire to get behind both. And my only reasoning for using DCS as an example is in the hope that we might one day see improved features in IL-2 Great battles. To my point - in a way having controls shared across all aircraft is "easier" and less intimidating for new users. I think this method of key mapping should remain an option. However, as IL-2 continues to grow and gain more aircraft, more and more aircraft specific controls are finding their way into the menus and any time I've had to go through the process of binding my controls it becomes kind of a pain to try to figure out which buttons I have available for those specific actions that don't control something else that will still be in the aircraft. On top of that, there's the way DCS has a separate page for axis bindings. I know I'm not alone in owning a Virpil throttle or a VKB stick. You can program virtual buttons and virtual axes and save it to the firmware inside the device itself. However when I try to bind a virtual axis in IL-2 great battles, there is no way to differentiate whether I want it to detect axis movement or button presses. In DCS I'm either binding an axis or a button. Not both. There are button assignments to control axes. But I leave them blank as between my devices I have enough axes to cover what I want on the axis binding page. In IL-2 however, the moment I run into an aircraft that has cowl flaps, oil, water, and a turbo charger I'm put off from trying to figure it out. The summarized version is that as a customer who very much wants to see IL-2 improve and bring us into the Pacific *cough*, (I know, I know) having advanced input options, like a specific page for binding axes and a drop down menu to allow me to bind controls per aircraft rather than a one size fits all solution would only open up the possibilities of how I might map my controls and at least for me be less of a headache. 2
BraveSirRobin Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 GB could definitely improve the method for setting up key mapping. The could have just left the RoF system in place. But please don’t try to replicate the DCS system. It sucks. Bring back the RoF setup.
=IL2AU=ToknMurican Posted July 9, 2022 Author Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said: GB could definitely improve the method for setting up key mapping. The could have just left the RoF system in place. But please don’t try to replicate the DCS system. It sucks. Bring back the RoF setup. Comparatively I disagree. DCS has taken into account that we use multiple input devices, that we have software solutions to creating axes and buttons, and that input from either or could have a desired result of either or. Every single binding is specific to the aircraft I'm currently trying to fly. It offers more in respect to the hardware we have available. I can tap a button and see if it's already bound to something. In regards to binding axes, even falcon BMS is ahead in this department. Axis bindings, even virtual axes, are much easier to set up. In RoF you were able to change the position of "center" but I would still be running into much of the same issues I would be now trying to bind controls that I do not currently have issues with in DCSW. I can make use of the added software functionality of my hardware in DCS without third party tools. I'm completely for you having the same options you had in RoF. But as someone with enthusiast level gear.. I would very much love the OPTION to have the features in mapping controls that DCSW offers. And I am placing a strong emphasis on OPTION. as options can only be a good thing. Another thing to point out is that, not one single aircraft in Il-2 is going to have near the amount of available key bindings as even FC3 module in DCS. We're not dealing with gen 3 fighter jets. The amount of bindings per aircraft is actually pretty miniscule comparatively, especially given, IL-2 doesn't feature full fidelity cockpits where you have control over every switch in the pit. Even if that were the case, there are a lot less switches. Again.. I'm not asking to take anything away from you. I'm asking for something more compatible with my setup. I know I'm far from the only person using a setup like mine, and therefore, I know some folks who would benefit from some improvements here as well. DCSW has a lot of good answers to the issues I'm describing. I am never stuck thinking "well where do i put that?" in DCS. Either I've used the control or i haven't. There is no question of whether this aircraft specific function is going to create conflict with other functions that it might share with other aircraft. RoF doesn't really offer the solutions I'm looking for, personally. And quite frankly.. it was enough to make me give up a few hours ago rather than continue my pursuit of seeing where IL-2 Great Battles is today after my absence. Edited July 9, 2022 by =IL2AU=ToknMurican
BraveSirRobin Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 26 minutes ago, =IL2AU=ToknMurican said: But as someone with enthusiast level gear.. I have top of the line gear. Thrustmaster throttle and joystick… blah..blah..blah.. and the DCS system would be an absolute disaster for GB. It’s designed so that you need to create a new setup for every single aircraft that you own. It’s attempt to set up default settings for new aircraft is a complete disaster. IT. SUCKS. The GB system isn’t perfect, but it’s a lot better than the DCS shitshow.
=IL2AU=ToknMurican Posted July 9, 2022 Author Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: I have top of the line gear. Thrustmaster throttle and joystick… blah..blah..blah.. and the DCS system would be an absolute disaster for GB. It’s designed so that you need to create a new setup for every single aircraft that you own. It’s attempt to set up default settings for new aircraft is a complete disaster. IT. SUCKS. The GB system isn’t perfect, but it’s a lot better than the DCS shitshow. Again. I'm not sure why you insist on arguing about having the OPTION for people who want it. But okay. your point has been made. Good luck. personally.. i'm fed up with it enough that i won't be buying future IL-2 products and don't care if this game fails all together. there you go. That what you're looking for? My post accommodates what you want. Again. I said I think the current layout should remain an option. Your post is trying to deny me an option I want. The devs can pick who they want to listen to. Edited July 9, 2022 by =IL2AU=ToknMurican
BraveSirRobin Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 Just now, =IL2AU=ToknMurican said: That what you're looking for? Yes. Because if they go with the F’d up DCS system then I’d have to leave. And I’d much rather that you left. 1
=IL2AU=ToknMurican Posted July 9, 2022 Author Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: Yes. Because if they go with the F’d up DCS system then I’d have to leave. And I’d much rather that you left. again.. IGNORING THE OPTIONAL COMMENT BRO. Thanks for you input. my solution wouldn't change anything for you dude. Not at all. If your argument is that I don't deserve key mapping options that work better for me, I have to say I'm finding myself rather unimpressed at the moment. But you know.. let's fuel the rational to be stagnant on features that others might find useful because you can't wrap your head around the DCS control menus. Edited July 9, 2022 by =IL2AU=ToknMurican
BraveSirRobin Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 Just now, =IL2AU=ToknMurican said: again.. IGNORING THE OPTIONAL COMMENT BRO. Thanks for you input. ‘I’m really not sure how the shitshow DCS system is compatible with the current GB system. But fortunately I probably don’t have to worry about it. If they make any changes it will probably be to bring back the options available in RoF.
=IL2AU=ToknMurican Posted July 9, 2022 Author Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: ‘I’m really not sure how the shitshow DCS system is compatible with the current GB system. But fortunately I probably don’t have to worry about it. If they make any changes it will probably be to bring back the options available in RoF. And's not going to solve a single issue I described in the OP. But good luck with that. I'm done. Sorry devs. sorry moderators. If pushback from the community and/or devs is what people get when suggesting improvements.. I want no part of it. Matter of fact I regret spending the money I already have. Uninstalled. Edited July 9, 2022 by =IL2AU=ToknMurican
BraveSirRobin Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, =IL2AU=ToknMurican said: And's not going to solve a single issue I described in the OP. But good luck with that. I'm done. Sorry devs. sorry moderators. If pushback from the community and/or devs is what people get when suggesting improvements.. I want no part of it. Matter of fact I regret spending the money I already have. Uninstalled. So you’re uninstalling the game because one person disagrees with you about a pretty minor issue?
=IL2AU=ToknMurican Posted July 9, 2022 Author Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said: So you’re uninstalling the game because one person disagrees with you about a pretty minor issue? obviously it's not a minor issue to me. But let's put your assumption to bed shall we? #1, this isn't the first time I've offered a suggestion in these forums that would over all make the game a more enjoyable experience for me as well as other people I've flown with. It also isn't the first time I'm thinking of a box that you can check or uncheck next to "advanced control scheme" or other non-optional things like auto-pausing on mission start in SP. It boils down to the fact that despite the fact that I'm not asking the developers to change a single thing for you other than whether or not to check that box, you would crap on my suggestions which would 100% improve my experience within IL-2. Let's take into account that I've made this particular suggestion before and my post got likes. I'm not alone in this want. But mostly, suggestions are ignored in favor of releasing more aircraft and a new map that most of the people I know aren't overly excited about (I hesitantly bought normandy myself in support of the team) rather than considering that despite the fact that this game has amazing visuals, VR functionality, flight and damage models, there are elements of the game that take away from that. Here I am in the OP explaining situations, in this case, describing layers of tedium that I'd rather not deal with, and that I'm not suggesting they make this change for everybody, that they give us OPTIONS. And you're fighting me on that. Yes. Man. The 21st century sucks. There's a movie I once watched and it's like it's coming true. I came back to say this much. I wrote maybe less than a page in the OP. That shouldn't be difficult reading. One might note that I suggested this as an option. In my opinion, in a lifetime of gaming, the key to a good game is balancing the tedium with the fun factor. Il-2 has all the potential in the world to be a hit with just about anybody who owns a PC without completely destroying the sensation of realistic flight characteristics. But every single improvement or suggestion I've made in this forums seems like it has to come with a fight to get anything done, and in that regard, the most I've seen as a result of that fight have been bug fixes. I'm not here for that. RoF control schemes are less than desirable for me. Let's also consider that the aircraft of Rise of Flight were no where near as involved with the complexity of controls compared to what people were flying in WW2. We are pretty well beyond what RoF required for control bindings. The original IL-2 1946 control schemes at least had a section dedicated to axis bindings. It didn't match the DCS layout but that was a plus. Give me that and a drop down list of the available aircraft for specific bindings and I wouldn't be making a post like this. It's not "Copy Eagle Dynamics Work directly". It's "Increase the functionality to make this a more streamlined and enjoyable experience." So yeah.. the allure has worn off. That's where I'm at. The community is not that large to begin with. OPTIONS equate to more solutions for different preferences. I get it. I'm not sure why everything in today's world has to be a debate. *edit* I want to apologize for my impatience. I don't MEAN to be disrespectful. I was going to fly in IL-2 for the first time in awhile today and as I was binding the controls for my throttle with its firmware upgrade and new buttons/axes I hit a point where it was just like "I don't want to do this anymore" because of the limitations of the key mapping system in IL-2. I struggled to bind the handle brake on my VKB stick because it has a virtual button. I couldn't bind virtual axis for the encoders on my Virpil throttle to my gunsight adjustments because they're also buttons. And every time I have to go through this I hit an uphill run trying to sort out which controls I can double bind and which not. The solutions I described eliminate all of that while also keeping the current system in tact. In this regard, what DCS offers is far more advanced. I never run out of buttons. I never struggle to bind an axis, even virtual. Sure, I have 50 aircraft I have to set up. But I can also just hop in my F-16 and be in the air in 10 minutes for hours of fun. I can bind the next aircraft when I decide I want to fly it. And never between two aircraft will controls conflict. I don't have to think about that in DCS. Il-2 likes to default joystick bindings I don't use too. I have to click each individually, half the time missing the X. In DCS I can click "Clear category". Just to say it, DCS has it's issues and I'm not here to debate the better sim. They both have strengths and weaknesses. In the key mapping department though one is easier for me work with than the other, even if, or especially because, I have to do it for every aircraft. You my friend, like the "less intimidating method" I described should remain an option. If you were to argue that that option should be more like RoF, I wouldn't be stepping on your toes. Myself? I prefer having more control and more options. The hardware itself is fantastic. Virpil and VKB both knocked their contribution to my pit out of the park. It's been a rough year, a rougher week.. I feel like I've spent more effort than I want to on this at the moment. Edited July 9, 2022 by =IL2AU=ToknMurican
9./JG27golani79 Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 4 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said: I have top of the line gear. Thrustmaster throttle and joystick… blah..blah..blah.. and the DCS system would be an absolute disaster for GB. It’s designed so that you need to create a new setup for every single aircraft that you own. It’s attempt to set up default settings for new aircraft is a complete disaster. IT. SUCKS. The GB system isn’t perfect, but it’s a lot better than the DCS shitshow. Or you could just import the settings from one plane to another and change things needed to be changed. You have set up basic controls and wanna use it for another plane? Just load the profile - no need to set up everything new for every single aircraft. 1
AtomicP Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 The Il-2 BoX control mapping is a pain. It'd be nice to borrow some DCS features such as highlighting what buttons and keys are mapped, searching for specific controls, rolling common mappings to single buttons (e.g. aircraft that have radial engines don't have radiator controls but could share the same mapping), per plane profiles etc. I know some improvements are coming down the pipe, but I wonder how many new players are put off by the control mapping barrier? One thing that's not present in DCS or Il-2 is a way to print a mapping chart or at least generate a diagram you can refer to. If I've been away from either sim for a while I forget some of the mappings. In DCS at least I can press the buttons on my stick to check what they are assigned to, but in Il-2 there's no easy way to do this. Anyway, much room for improvement.
Hoss Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 You guys seem pretty passionate about it, but it's no reason to disrespect each other, Jason or the Devs. All I can say is be patient, all good things come to those who wait........ patiently and politely..... R.E.S.P.E.C.T. LOL Be patient. Hoss
SharpeXB Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) And over at DCS people complain about that system and want to make it universal like IL-2 ? Each system is fine for it’s game and different for so many reasons. Edited July 9, 2022 by SharpeXB 1 1
JimTM Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, AtomicP said: ... One thing that's not present in DCS or Il-2 is a way to print a mapping chart or at least generate a diagram you can refer to. ... In DCS, open the Options screen and choose the controls for a plane. Then click the Make HTML button. This creates an HTML file for each control, which you can double click to view the key binds in in your web browser. The HTML files are stored in drive:\Users\mydirectory\Saved Games\dcsinstall\InputLayoutsTxt\plane. Edited July 9, 2022 by JimTM 1
Hoss Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) I take a screen shot of the settings keymapping pages and keep an excel sheet of it and update it when changes come out. But I change a few of the commands because of conflicts, so I need a reference once in awhile. Edited July 9, 2022 by Hoss
BraveSirRobin Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 7 hours ago, 9./JG27golani79 said: Or you could just import the settings from one plane to another and change things needed to be changed. You have set up basic controls and wanna use it for another plane? Just load the profile - no need to set up everything new for every single aircraft. Is that easier than "do nothing", which is what the GB system allows?
SharpeXB Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 It would be ridiculous if GB had you set up every aircraft individually like DCS. Clearly these menu systems are different because the games are different. DCS has individual high-fidelity modules with many complex and unique controls all made by different developers. IL-2GB has many more aircraft and they’re all from the same developer and of the same era so it’s pretty obvious that they can share controller schemes. Either menu system would be inappropriate for the other game. 1
Jason_Williams Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 Our new Custom Key Mapping and Joystick Profiles feature will allow new profiles to be created, saved and assigned to each plane or vehicle. Like we had in ROF. Its in Beta now and we already previewed it in an earlier DD. Our keymapping system is quite simple and easy to assign controls. No sim has a monopoly on the absolute greatest system agreed to by all. Just knock it off. There are a million ways to improve all these kinds of system, but unfortunately we don't have a million people or hours to devote to it. You'll like the new system and its what we can get done. Jason 4 1
MisterSmith Posted July 9, 2022 Posted July 9, 2022 Everyone needs to chill. Tokn, you can try again without directly referencing other design houses but as it is, this cannot remain anywhere other than Free Subject.
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