Glass aircraft

[6./ZG26_Loke]

I think that the fact that we die so easily in an emergency landing is connected with the fact that planes break easily when they are hit.
Last Friday, when I hit a tree with the Ju-88, I only hit just the top branches. But lost both an aileron , a tail plane and the whole tail.
When I was shot in a Ju87 by a P-40 I was only hit by a few shots as in very few, yet the plane caught fire immediately.
When I flew a 110, the entire plane was dismantled, by 4 projectiles from a Hurricane. Notice that the plane did not explode in midair. 
There is something completely wrong with the damage models, and I think that this is connected with the reason why pilot and crew die so easily on emergency landings. 

 

It is all in the damage model, and it's like all aircraft is made of glass. 

[SCG_motoadve]

Agreed, even bombers catch fire and explode with a few MG rounds, way too many fires and explosions, totally ruins immersion.

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

I think that the fact that we die so easily in an emergency landing is connected with the fact that planes break easily when they are hit.
Last Friday, when I hit a tree with the Ju-88, I only hit just the top branches. But lost both an aileron , a tail plane and the whole tail.
When I was shot in a Ju87 by a P-40 I was only hit by a few shots as in very few, yet the plane caught fire immediately.
When I flew a 110, the entire plane was dismantled, by 4 projectiles from a Hurricane. Notice that the plane did not explode in midair. 
There is something completely wrong with the damage models, and I think that this is connected with the reason why pilot and crew die so easily on emergency landings. 

 

It is all in the damage model, and it's like all aircraft is made of glass. 

 

airplanes explod to offten because of not full fule tanks, but you were not hit by just few bullets, if you have half empty tanks you have risk of exploding more offten. Then in MP you have problem of lag/delay so all bullet data can come at one time making your airplane explod in all separable components so it can be that also.

 

Stats say you were hit by 34x20mm with hurri

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/sortie/2774333/?tour=53

and 36x .50 with p-40

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/sortie/2774554/?tour=53

 

if you dont show SP tests and examples they aint gona look at it

[6./ZG26_Loke]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

 

airplanes explod to offten because of not full fule tanks, but you were not hit by just few bullets, if you have half empty tanks you have risk of exploding more offten. Then in MP you have problem of lag/delay so all bullet data can come at one time making your airplane explod in all separable components so it can be that also.

 

Stats say you were hit by 34x20mm with hurri

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/sortie/2774333/?tour=53

and 36x .50 with p-40

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/sortie/2774554/?tour=53

 

if you dont show SP tests and examples they aint gona look at it

That stats is way wrong and prove absolut nothing. 

There was fired a exstrem short burst, which hit only one place on the aircraft, but things were coming of all over the place. And no explosion accured. 

Show me a guncam recording, where an aircraft is dismantle completely by a 1 to 2 sec burst. 

Beside several other agee with me that the aircraft have become like glass. Funny enough, at the same time as the emergency landing sensitiviti was changed. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Loke

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I think the Mosquito is a good example.  It carries almost twice the fuel of a Pe-2 but only needs about 40% to go ripping about in any multiplayer scenario we have available.

They explode quite easily when the fuel tank gets hit by a few HE MG rounds or 1 HE cannon round.  I know the Mossie wasn't exactly the toughest aircraft in WW2 but it was durable "enough" so, I'm going to rule out fragility.   

I've even noticed a big difference between taking 100% and taking 60% when it comes to being exploded in a Pe-2.    

I totally agree that the more vapor is in the tank, the easier it is to explode.  After all, it's not the liquid form of gasoline (petrol) that burns, it's the vapor.  

[Denum]

Gets destroyed by a reasonable amount of rounds, "Its broken"

 

Single 13mm HE rounds sand bagging aircraft and "its historical"

How much did I drink Friday...?

 

The aircraft are no less durable then before. I've had plenty of landings where the aircraft was intact and my pilot died still.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Denum

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Denum said:

Gets destroyed by a reasonable amount of rounds, "Its broken"

 

Single 13mm HE rounds sand bagging aircraft and "its historical"

How much did I drink Friday...?

 

The aircraft are no less durable then before. I've had plenty of landings where the aircraft was intact and my pilot died still.

some ppl are just to lost

 

i even explained that if it seamed like all blow up in same time its delay of bullets, its comon to happend online on heavy missions like vp have and bad net code game have, and no im wrong lol

[ACG_Cass]

4 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

where an aircraft is dismantle completely by a 1 to 2 sec burst. 

a 1-2s burst is a lot of rounds on multiple gun platforms

 

4 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

That stats is way wrong and prove absolut nothing. 

Those are literally the stats from the server log. I think the onus of truth is on you rather than him. 

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Don't focus only on the rounds. Aircraft falls a part just because one hit the very top of a tree, where the branches are not more than one cm thick, if even so much. 

 

Oh, still waiting for a guncam recording to prove me wrong. 

[Denum]

41 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

 Aircraft falls a part just because one hit the very top of a tree, where the branches are not more than one cm thick, if even so much. 

 

 

 

 

Depends on the map and sometimes where on the map. 

 

Sometimes I can love tap my wing tip in the trees and it does very little damage. Other times I lose my wing.

 

Sometimes there's invisible hit boxes above the trees.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Speaking purely from an online experience, over the last few months and updates (particularly regarding changes to ground impacts and ammunition changes) aircraft seem to be a lot more fragile than before. This is extremely noticeable in larger aircraft, such as the A-20, Bf 110, the Ju 88, the P-38 etc.

 

The amount of fires and instantaneous explosions is quite frankly, bordering on ridiculous. Survivability rates flying online as a bomber pilot have gone from about 50% prior to the changes down to about 10% if you're lucky. 

 

IRL, survivability of bomber crews was 51%. If you transfer the game survivability rates into real life, no one in their right mind would ever have flown bomber missions. 

 

Gun camera footage is never particularly great to base assumptions on. Bearing in mind most of the gun camera footage would've been cherry picked to show the "best" examples. Having said that, there are hours of online footage of larger aircraft being attacked and taking massive amounts of punishment without falling apart and also without instantaneously exploding every couple of minutes and I am not just referring to B-17s.

 

Now we turn to the AI gunners which are almost completely ineffective and yes, I know, I've heard all the counter arguments from our fighter pilot friends regarding how bad AI gunnery should be. Fighter pilots were told never to approach dead six and to do various different angles of attack. That's gone right out of the window in the online community now as the gunnery is so bad, most online fighter pilots just line up on your six and plug away waiting for you to explode or fall apart. To hell with slashing attacks, they're not needed anymore. One statistic I'll be very interested to know is prior to the change of gunnery AI, what the percentage of planes shot down by AI gunnery was compared to now. 

 

In the last 8 weeks of flying, I think I've shot down 1 fighter aircraft and that's only because I manned the gun myself. The main problem we have in great battles is it's almost impossible to simulate mass formations of bombers and the protection that that provided. My enthusiasm has waned dramatically and I think the changes have really nerfed online bombing missions to the point where bombers are toothless target drones to make the fighter boys happy and feeling great about shooting down so many bombers. 

 

I genuinely hope that the damage modelling ammunition damage and gunner AI is relooked at because we've gone from a healthy squad to drastically dwindling numbers because the fun of flying ground attack and bombing is not fun anymore. 

[ACG_Cass]

7 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

This is extremely noticeable in larger aircraft, such as the A-20, Bf 110, the Ju 88, the P-38 etc.

Agreed. The explosions simply have to go, it isn't remotely realistic for an aircraft to explode like that due to a small fuel/air explosion.

 

To your other points, it's a difficult balance to strike. Rear gunners have almost certainly been nerfed far too much but with a pilots life not being worth what it was IRL, I don't see them being the deterrent they were. It should certainly be the case that you get more kills but that's after you've been shot down. But, I do 100% think they need a buff as its almost immersion breaking idiotically sitting 100 yards behind a 110 while the gunner tries to finish his crossword puzzle.

 

Fire chances aren't overly high I'd say. Almost every fighter aircraft in the sim should have some kind of incendiary ammunition in their belts and late war platforms such as the 4x20mm of the Antons and Tempest/Typhoons were absolutely devastating to aircraft if they landed hits well. In those cases they should be carrying API and HEI, so there should be a reduction in the explosive potential of the rounds. You also have to take into account the we don't have to deal with aircraft wake or very much propeller torque and very rarely fly in turbulent weather so accuracy levels are massively higher than they are IRL. But even then, I think the area of effect for HE is a bit absurd at the moment and could do with being reduced by 90-95%.

 

The other point would be tactics. Players are all too keen to fly slow figure of 8s over the targets trying to hit as many as they can, but you wouldn't find any real life pilot doing this even if they had complete air superiority. Fighter-Bombers became the norm fairly early on in the war as their speed meant they could hit quickly and get out of the area. If you're in a 110 facing off Bodenplatte allied aircraft or a Pe2/A20 taking on late war Luftwaffe, you can't expect to have a high survival rate.

Edited July 4, 2022 by ACG_Cass

[SCG_motoadve]

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Speaking purely from an online experience, over the last few months and updates (particularly regarding changes to ground impacts and ammunition changes) aircraft seem to be a lot more fragile than before. This is extremely noticeable in larger aircraft, such as the A-20, Bf 110, the Ju 88, the P-38 etc.

 

The amount of fires and instantaneous explosions is quite frankly, bordering on ridiculous. Survivability rates flying online as a bomber pilot have gone from about 50% prior to the changes down to about 10% if you're lucky. 

 

IRL, survivability of bomber crews was 51%. If you transfer the game survivability rates into real life, no one in their right mind would ever have flown bomber missions. 

 

Gun camera footage is never particularly great to base assumptions on. Bearing in mind most of the gun camera footage would've been cherry picked to show the "best" examples. Having said that, there are hours of online footage of larger aircraft being attacked and taking massive amounts of punishment without falling apart and also without instantaneously exploding every couple of minutes and I am not just referring to B-17s.

 

Now we turn to the AI gunners which are almost completely ineffective and yes, I know, I've heard all the counter arguments from our fighter pilot friends regarding how bad AI gunnery should be. Fighter pilots were told never to approach dead six and to do various different angles of attack. That's gone right out of the window in the online community now as the gunnery is so bad, most online fighter pilots just line up on your six and plug away waiting for you to explode or fall apart. To hell with slashing attacks, they're not needed anymore. One statistic I'll be very interested to know is prior to the change of gunnery AI, what the percentage of planes shot down by AI gunnery was compared to now. 

 

In the last 8 weeks of flying, I think I've shot down 1 fighter aircraft and that's only because I manned the gun myself. The main problem we have in great battles is it's almost impossible to simulate mass formations of bombers and the protection that that provided. My enthusiasm has waned dramatically and I think the changes have really nerfed online bombing missions to the point where bombers are toothless target drones to make the fighter boys happy and feeling great about shooting down so many bombers. 

 

I genuinely hope that the damage modelling ammunition damage and gunner AI is relooked at because we've gone from a healthy squad to drastically dwindling numbers because the fun of flying ground attack and bombing is not fun anymore. 

Feel the same way, I have not much enthusiasm for Il2 anymore, feels unrealistic and boring,  is starting to feel more arcade than ever, with all the fires and explosions, the B26 has the durability of a Zero, same for the C47, 110s, really  all bombers and some fighters like the P47, its ridiculous.

[Hitcher]

2 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Feel the same way, I have not much enthusiasm for Il2 anymore, feels unrealistic and boring,  is starting to feel more arcade than ever, with all the fires and explosions, the B26 has the durability of a Zero, same for the C47, 110s, really  all bombers and some fighters like the P47, its ridiculous.

100% agree, patience is wearing abit thin at this point.

I did some testing and edited high explosive shells so they has 1/10th of their radius of effect, they went from destroying/exploding bombers in a few hits to being quite durable and requiring accurate hits to important components to bring down, so much improvement from a simple value change.

[354thFG_Rails]

Game was better pre DM update and fuel tank update IMO. I highly doubt this will get any of the intention it deserves. 

[357th_KW]

56 minutes ago, Hitcher said:

100% agree, patience is wearing abit thin at this point.

I did some testing and edited high explosive shells so they has 1/10th of their radius of effect, they went from destroying/exploding bombers in a few hits to being quite durable and requiring accurate hits to important components to bring down, so much improvement from a simple value change.

I think you’re dead on here.  The blast radius of HE rounds is probably the biggest issue right now.  We’re seeing cannon rounds striking the right wing of a multi-engine aircraft and setting the opposite side engine on fire.  Hits that would have been largely superficial and ineffective are producing critical damage.  Combined with a 0% dud rate and the monster fuel explosions, it’s a wonder anyone ever returns to base in a damaged aircraft.

[SCG_motoadve]

3 hours ago, Hitcher said:

100% agree, patience is wearing abit thin at this point.

I did some testing and edited high explosive shells so they has 1/10th of their radius of effect, they went from destroying/exploding bombers in a few hits to being quite durable and requiring accurate hits to important components to bring down, so much improvement from a simple value change.

How do I change radius of effect? I would like to do it, at least to have fun in some quick missions, and PWCG.

[Hitcher]

26 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

How do I change radius of effect? I would like to do it, at least to have fun in some quick missions, and PWCG.

First you have to un-gtp the scripts.gtp file in data, it will create a folder in your data folder called "(null)" in here you extract the contents of "luascripts" into the luascript folder in data and you can navigate worldojects/explosions/heprojectiles and in these files you'll find a line that says "radius = 5.7" for example.

For each HE projectile there are 4 files but you only need to change the one that ends in "object".

Edit it to whatever you want, it's the radius of effect in meters so for the mg151 which is 5.7m I changed it 0.57m.

You can change it to whatever you want.

Set mods on and mess about in singleplayer.

 

File so you dont need to edit them all.

heprojectiles.rar

Edited July 4, 2022 by Hitcher

[Oyster_KAI]

Some planes will stall the moment they are hit by a cannon. …
I think it's a bit werid that it would directly result being unable to maneuver or crashing.

[Denum]

8 hours ago, Oyster_KAI said:

Some planes will stall the moment they are hit by a cannon. …
I think it's a bit werid that it would directly result being unable to maneuver or crashing.

 

Agree 

 

You'd think a plane as heavy as the P47 would be resistant to it but I find a wing strike down low is enough to throw me inverted with almost no hope of recovery.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Denum