Use of rudder in combat.

[Youtch]

Dear community and experts pilots,

 

I am using rudder for taxiing, taking-off, landing, some adjustements while targetting for ground attack and dogfight, for hammerhead and quick roll, but that is pretty much it.

 

Am i missing something?

Are you using rudder a lot while dogfighting?

For which type of manoeuvre?

 

Do coordinated turns make a lot of difference in dogfight?

 

Thank you very much in advance for your advice,

Y.

[Denum]

Lots of rudder in combat. 

 

[=621=Samikatz]

Using the rudder to force sudden rolls with a loss in speed is fun to make people overshoot with. The Yaks are very good for that because people don't expect them to roll all that well

[PatrickAWlson]

I constantly use rudder to correct aim.  A bit of rudder with some opposite aileron to counter roll gives me a bit of side slip that lets me line up a target.  It also allows me to slide with a target when I am shooting from 5:00 or 7:00 to keep him in m y sights for a second longer.

[kestrel79]

I like to kick in the rudder diving on bombers, spread some more hits across their wide frames.

[RyanR]

Rudder is as important as ailerons and elevators.... at least in prop fighter combat.

 

Rudder will speed up a roll when your speed is down.... and similarly hard, opposite rudder will help get you out of those stalls when your inner wing drops in a tight turn.

 

Seems like in combat there are a lot of exceptions to the rule of "coordinated turns", and keeping the slip indicator ball centered.

 

-Ryan

[Jade_Monkey]

The use of rudder is so second nature now that I couldn't tell you when I use it anymore.

 

Definitely taxiing, takeoff, and combat, but probably in more subtle ways during navigation turns.

 

 

[percydanvers]

Can't speak for every type of plane, but in the German aircraft it's absolutely necessary for lining up the kind of precise shots you need to make. 

[IckyATLAS]

Rudder can in some cases make the aiming difficult for the fighter behind you or for the AAA shooting at you in specific cases.

As said above in prop flight combat rudder is very important.

[Avimimus]

10 hours ago, Youtch said:

Am i missing something?

Are you using rudder a lot while dogfighting?

For which type of manoeuvre?

 

Do coordinated turns make a lot of difference in dogfight?

 

So, I avoid using much rudder during the final phases of aiming (as oscillations make aiming difficult), however, I will use the rudder a lot earlier to set up the attack.

 

As for maneuvers... I use the rudder a lot but it is a bit complicated as I often use the rudder in ways which are antagonistic to the maneuver as well as ways which assist it. So I will use rudder to increase roll rate sometimes, but I'll also use it to initially damp the drift downward of the nose when entering in a combat turn and then release that damping in order to turn more sharply etc.

 

There are a lot of habits that I picked up from Flying Circus (WWI) involving adjustments to the angle of the nose to the horizon while in a turn and habits I picked up from the Mig-3 (BoM) involving inducing complex oscillations at low speed. I'm not sure if all of these habits are good for late-war combat (with its relatively higher speeds and higher momentum relative to surface area) but they do seem to work pretty well prior to 1942.

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it is complicated, and there are lots of clever (and plane specific) ways to use all three axis of control in combination when entering or exiting maneuvers (even if that aren't used during the majority of the maneuver). So explore and listen to your aircraft... treat flying like a conversation with a horse (or something - I'm no equestrian). ?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

Surprised no-one has mentioned the snap roll yet, which I quite often do, especially with slow-rolling spin-resistant planes like the Fokker D.VII.

Edited June 29, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed

[AtomicP]

I use the rudder constantly when dogfighting to fine tune my shots. It'd be tricky to do otherwise. I do the same in DCS World with the Hornet, but mostly for ground attack with unguided weapons such as the cannon or rockets.

[Youtch]

11 hours ago, Avimimus said:

but I'll also use it to initially damp the drift downward of the nose when entering in a combat turn and then release that damping in order to turn more sharply etc

Could you explain a little bit more?

[Jaegermeister]

A little bit of outside rudder is essential when riding on the edge of a stall in a tight turn. When you are behind an EAC and trying to pull your gunsight ahead of his nose for a shot and the inside wing just starts to drop, a swift kick to the rudder pedal brings it back up. It drops you back to lag pursuit, but that's better than the alternative.

 

Fine tuning shots for left and right deflection on a moving target is all about raking it with the rudder.

 

Recovering from a stall from a poorly judged turn requires significant use of the rudder.

 

I don't really pay attention to most of the small rudder inputs, it's just something you get used to I guess. The ones above are just what I can recall.

[Gambit21]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

Could you explain a little bit more?

 

Think of what a rudder does. On what axis does it control the aircraft?

You have pitch, roll, and yaw...rudder is yaw.

 

When you enter a hard combat turn your nose will tend to drop (not necessarily a bad thing depending on what you want) however since the aircraft is now near 90 degrees, in a left-hand turn, right rudder is now "up"

 

A bit of uncoordinated rudder input in certain circumstances can help during ACM/BFM with human pilots as well, since it makes you less easy to predict/track, make snapshots against you.

[=SqSq=SignorMagnifico]

On 6/28/2022 at 9:55 AM, Youtch said:

Dear community and experts pilots,

 

I am using rudder for taxiing, taking-off, landing, some adjustements while targetting for ground attack and dogfight, for hammerhead and quick roll, but that is pretty much it.

 

Am i missing something?

Are you using rudder a lot while dogfighting?

For which type of manoeuvre?

 

Do coordinated turns make a lot of difference in dogfight?

 

Thank you very much in advance for your advice,

Y.

Use the rudder in combat to extinguish flames if you catch fire. https://youtu.be/IFwR2x6mPOE

 

Aka the special rudder combo trick.

Edited June 29, 2022 by =SqSq=SignorMagnifico

[BubiHUN]

9 minutes ago, =SqSq=SignorMagnifico said:

Use the rudder in combat to extinguish flames if you catch fire. https://youtu.be/IFwR2x6mPOE

 

Aka the special rudder combo trick.

if it really does, there is one more serious issue wich need taken care of.

[Zooropa_Fly]

I think this is more pronounced in ww1, as all rudder things tend to be..

 

When you pitch up or down, you get a secondary effect of (I think) yaw - if not it's obviously roll !

So as you ascend / descend - your plane will want to yaw, then roll slightly to one side.

A gently squeeze of the appropriate rudder will keep you nice and level.

Eventually you'll do it without thinking, naturally applying just enough rudder at the right time.

 

But in general I think of all the controls working in unison.

If you're working one of them hard - you're correcting with another, and likely trying to keep the other one stable.

 

Go on a few flights where you're just flying around - slipping and skidding, doing loops etc.

You'll soon have all the controls working together.

Dr1 might be a good training bird for this sort of thing..

 

S!

[MajorMagee]

Historically, the active use of rudder in all modes of flying dominated during WW1. By WW2 flight schools teaching the "proper" use of the rudder in high performance aircraft had restricted it to very particular circumstances to keep the typical pilot from quickly getting themselves into trouble.

[SharpeXB]

Funny question… 

Rudder is used for flying

flying is used for combat

therefore rudder is used for combat. 

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, MajorMagee said:

Historically, the active use of rudder in all modes of flying dominated during WW1. By WW2 flight schools teaching the "proper" use of the rudder in high performance aircraft had restricted it to very particular circumstances to keep the typical pilot from quickly getting themselves into trouble.

 

In WWI, until the Fokker D.VII, ailerons were not that effective so the planes were turned and rolled with rudder, ailerons providing coordination.  Almost the  opposite of WWII.

[Sobilak]

ALWAYS!!!

In take off!

In flight!

In landing!

In combat for accuracy, for better and smoother turn's, for defensive and offensive manoeuvre's. For everything.

  

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

For sure,  watch the ball ,how not optimal aerodynamically (drag by  slip or slide) plane fly without rudder input. For aiming correction I found rudder with damper work the best. 

[IckyATLAS]

11 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

For sure,  watch the ball ,how not optimal aerodynamically (drag by  slip or slide) plane fly without rudder input. For aiming correction I found rudder with damper work the best. 

In a real fighter plane you "fly with your ass" to feel the moves and normally you do not need the ball, but in a simulator you have only visual cues hence the ball.

I know the expression above in french as I trained as a pilot in french so maybe in english the expression is different.

[Weegie]

Possibly "fly by the seat of your pants" just the same thing expressed slightly differently

[CUJO_1970]

You gotta center that ball when extending with the 109 or you are just leaving speed on the table.

[dawud]

Can´t do a Hartmann-Maneuver without rudder.
So, Yes!
 

Edited June 30, 2022 by dawud

[FeuerFliegen]

I mainly use rudder to keep the plane coordinated in flight to be faster and more efficient.  It especially helps when you are in a very heavy and slow plane,  especially when temperatures are hot,  like a fully loaded IL-2.  The Fw190A can do a hard turn much easier when you give it hard left rudder (which is required to keep it coordinated), as the plane's aerodynamics cause it to slip hard to the right whenever you pitch upwards with the elevator.

 

Spitfire XIV needs lots of left rudder when at high power but at slower speeds.  There are times when even -100% left rudder trim is not enough to keep it coordinated.

 

Bf109's climb performance definitely benefits from right rudder, especially at slower speeds

 

Ju52 needs lots of rudder trim, depending on your speed. 

 

Also if you are trying to maintain extremely high speeds in/after a dive, you often need hard rudder in one direction; like if you go past 700kph in a Bf109, you need hard left rudder to maintain the fastest possible speed.

 

Also I wish we had the option for a "slip-meter" in the lower left corner of the screen, where the compass and G-meter are.  I hate having to zoom out and look down to check if I'm coordinated, whereas in real life you'd have more of a "seat of the pants" feel, as well as a wider field of view than our monitors can provide to see the indicator, and same reason the devs justified giving us a G-meter.  It's one feature I love about the P-47 (standard sight option).

[US103_Baer]

On 6/30/2022 at 2:28 PM, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

For sure,  watch the ball ,how not optimal aerodynamically (drag by  slip or slide) plane fly without rudder input. For aiming correction I found rudder with damper work the best. 

What damper do you use?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

21 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

What damper do you use?

motorcycle one  @ RF Dora v2 rudder pedals 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Jeroen83]

Formation flying…

[jollyjack]

Rudder; to pedal or not? I got a Saitek Pro Flight given to me i still cannot get used to, as my modded Warthog throttle works OK. PS my chair on wheels ...

But i use it all the time LoL.

 

PS for rudder you can also use a paddle:

Edited July 7, 2022 by jollyjack

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

19 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

Rudder; to pedal or not? I got a Saitek Pro Flight given to me i still cannot get used to, as my modded Warthog throttle works OK. PS my chair on wheels ...

But i use it all the time LoL.

 

PS for rudder you am also a paddle:

 

replace chair wheels with one with brakes

[jollyjack]

19 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

replace chair wheels with one with brakes

 

Nice if this chair would auto brake on wheels and turning around, via USB then ?

[RossMarBow]

Aiming with the rudder

Avoiding getting hit with the rudder

 

Using the rudder as a air brake 

[BM357_TinMan]

Since we don't have the aid of actually being able to feel the forces on the aircraft in the sim, it would be nice if there was an option to overlay some kind of graphic that would be easily seen, to give us an idea of coordinated flight.  You can look down and see the ball but you can't really fly while watching it and certainly not while in combat.  You could actually "feel", to one degree or another, that you were not flying a coordinated flight path in a real plane though.

[Skelthos]

22 hours ago, BM357_TinMan said:

Since we don't have the aid of actually being able to feel the forces on the aircraft in the sim, it would be nice if there was an option to overlay some kind of graphic that would be easily seen, to give us an idea of coordinated flight.  You can look down and see the ball but you can't really fly while watching it and certainly not while in combat.  You could actually "feel", to one degree or another, that you were not flying a coordinated flight path in a real plane though.

I wonder how well a DOF motion simulator platform would work for getting a better feel for it. Of course I also wonder how to sneak one into the living room without the wife noticing      Suppose it would depend on how much telemetry data IL2 is throwing out and if it is the right telemetry data. 

[Dragon1-1]

People have built motion platforms, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got it to work with IL2. I think I even saw a driver out there that supported it. To feel if you're coordinated or not you don't need a huge setup, just something that'd turn enough for you to feel askew.