Need more info on jet attacks on Remagen bridge

[AWC]

Hello all

 

I'm planning on creating a cinematic on the the Ar 234 and Me 262 attacks on Remagen bridge in March 1945. However, most information I have read is general and lacking specifics. Here is what I know so far, but what I want to know is if a large scale attack with Ar 234s and Me 262s occurred like in the artworks attached below. I will probably be focusing on the 14th March attack as it had an intense run on the bridge and many dogfights.

 

 

March 9th 1945
III./KG76 flew three sorties against the Remagen bridge. Ofw Bruchlos of 8./KG76 was reported missing in WNr.140589 following an attack on the bridge.

 

March 11th 1945
Two Ar234s from III./KG76 attack the bridge.

 

March 12th 1945
Two Ar234s from the Stab and two from 6./KG76 bomb the bridge around noon. This was the first operational sortie flown by 6./KG76 with the Ar234. During the afternoon 14 Arado's from III./KG76 bomb the same target using Egon procedure. One aircraft WNr.140351 was damaged on landing.

Eight Me 262s from Gefechtsverband Kowalewski made an attack on the Remagen Bridge on the 12^th. A second attack on the bridge was flown later by eight more aircraft from III./KG 76 and I./KG 51

March 13th 1945
Seven Ar234s from 6./KG76 and 12 from III./KG76 bomb the bridge without success. Uffz Zwiener from III./KG76 bailed out near Wesendorf.

Four Me 262s from II./KG 51 made an attack between 0905 hrs and 1002 hrs at an altitude of 5000 m.

March 14th 1945
During the afternoon 11 Arados from 6./KG76 attacked the newly constructed pontoon bridge south of the main Ludendorff bridge at Remagen. Heavy flak and fighter defenses were encountered. Ofw Johne was shot down by a Spitfire and killed north of Limburg, Ofw Baumler and Fw Schulte were attacked by Lightnings but both bailed out safely and Hptm Morich's aircraft was damaged by flak and attacked by RAF Tempests. Hptm Hirschberger was shot down and killed by Mustangs.

 

March 17th 1945
Hptm Morich led an attack by two Arados from 6./KG76 on the Remagen bridgehead during the afternoon. Uffw Pohlmann was killed when his Arado (WNr.140180) was destroyed in a crash-landing at Burg following an engine failure.

 

Arado Ar234 Blitz by Smith and Creek. 
Arado Ar 234 Bomber and Reconnaissance Units by Robert Forsyth and Nick Beale.

Me 262 Bomber and Reconnaissance Units by Robert Forsyth

[=KG76=flyus747]

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2019/03/24/ludendorff-bridge-at-remagen/

 

This source doesn't really cover any more than the books by Forsyth & Beale but maybe it can further confirm.

 

I also wonder if the paintings are dramatized. At first glance, it looks cool and makes sense but if you consider that over 700 guns (according to the link) were posted around the bridge and that low level bombing with Ar 234 has a high probability of skipping the bomb, I think those paintings may be incorrect.

 

Also, from the Forsyth book, it sounded like all bombings were made from medium or high altitudes. No low low level attacks. This furthers my skepticism that these paintings have historical basis in how they portray the attack.

 

Can anyone else confirm/deny if such a low shallow angle attack was ever made by the 234s?

Edited July 5, 2022 by Heilenbecker

[Chief_Mouser]

Osprey's 'Remagen 1945' says that because of the extreme danger from anti-aircraft guns during low-level attacks, the Arados tried the 'Egon' bombing system, which means that they were higher up. I think that the painting is the result of vivid imagination!

[AndyJWest]

22 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

 I think that the painting is the result of vivid imagination!

 

Very much so. Not how you bomb a bridge anyway, if you have a clue what you are doing. With a single bomb, your best bet is straight along it, while if you are dropping a stick of bombs, you do so at a slight angle to the bridge, so you minimise the chance of having the whole lot miss to one side.

[LukeFF]

Yes, all the bombings by Ar 234s at Remagen were done from high altitude using EGON. There was just far too much AAA to risk a glide bombing. 

 

I've tried to simulate this as best I can in career mode by equipping Ar 234s with the Lotfe bombsight and assigning them to level bombing on bridge bombing missions. 

[ZachariasX]

On 6/24/2022 at 3:46 AM, Lemsip said:

Nice painting. They even put Pierre Clostermann in it, in his Tempest JF-E. I cannot find any indication in his flight log that he was actually was on a mission that far down in the American sector, even though he wrote a story about that appeared in (I think) all of the editions of his book. I suppose the painting was made based on that story. He was involved in operations Varsity and Plunder, but as far as I can gather, not with the crossing at Remagen.

[AWC]

On 7/6/2022 at 12:44 PM, LukeFF said:

Yes, all the bombings by Ar 234s at Remagen were done from high altitude using EGON. There was just far too much AAA to risk a glide bombing. 

 

Hi Luke

 

The sources I listed above state that Egon was used only a handful of times. However, the manner of bombing for many of the attacks is not explicitly stated. From this can it be assumed that these took place at low level or is this directly contracticted by written sources? Do you know the circumstances for the 14th March attack?

Edited July 8, 2022 by Lemsip

[357th_KW]

Here’s Don Bryan’s story of the March 14th battle, recounted from “FIGHTER GROUP The 352nd “Blue-Nosed Bastards” in World War II” by Jay Stout.

 

“Don Bryan of the 328th Fighter Squadron had four separate encounters with the Ar-234. His first came soon after it was introduced; he spotted it and mistakenly identified it as an A-26. “After we landed I fussed at my number four man for breaking radio silence. He pointed out that the aircraft I had identified as an A-26 had black crosses on it. We went to intelligence to review recognition photos and identified it as an Ar-234, and subsequently reported it up the chain to the Eighth Air Force. It must have been an early sighting because they called me out of bed and asked me to describe it in more detail. I ended that call by telling them that if they saw an A-26 without propellers going like hell, then it was an Ar-234. They never bothered me again.”
The next time he saw the type was on December 12, 1944, in the vicinity of Verviers. He positioned himself to make a rear-quarter attack just as he would with any other aircraft. As it developed, he did not consider how fast the enemy ship was and never got close enough to fire his guns. The third time he saw one of the speedy bombers was on December 31, 1944, south of Verviers. Mindful of his previous encounter, he managed to get close enough to score a few strikes on the big jet but it still outpaced him and escaped.
Shooting down the Ar-234 while flying a slower, piston-engine fighter obviously required considerable skill and guile. Bryan exercised those attributes the fourth time he encountered the Ar-234 on March 14, 1945. Having just finished leading an escort of Ninth Air Force bombers near the Remagen bridgehead over the Rhine, he spotted an Ar-234 and dropped his external tanks to give chase. “He was traveling about 50 mph faster than we were,” remembered Bryan, “and crossed the Rhine south of the bridge going west and then turned north making a very shallow dive run on the bridge, but did not drop his bombs.”14 As the German jet came out of its dive, Bryan spotted a flight of P-47s to the northwest. Knowing that his aircraft wasn’t fast enough to catch the jet bomber in a pure chase, Bryan anticipated that the Ar-234 pilot would also spot the P-47s and turn away to avoid them. With that in mind, Bryan banked toward the northeast hoping to cut him off. His intuition paid off. “When the E/A saw the P-47s he turned east and had to cross directly under me.” Bryan barrel-rolled his P-51 down toward the enemy jet. “I wanted to keep an eye on him as it was still unknown whether or not the Ar-234 carried forward-firing armament.” Bryan opened fire on the enemy ship from approximately 250 yards and his marksmanship was good. “I hit him with the first burst and knocked his right jet out.” The enemy pilot subsequently started a series of mild turns, climbs and dives as he tried to spoil Bryan’s aim. It worked to some extent, but not well enough. “I fired almost all of my ammo at him,” Bryan recalled, “and before I had finished I had knocked his left jet out and the E/A was emitting much white smoke.” Despite the smoke, Bryan did not note any fire but in the end it didn’t matter. “At about the time I had finished firing, he rolled over on his back and dived straight into the ground and exploded. Just before hitting the ground, the pilot of the E/A jettisoned his canopy but did not get out.”
Although the Ar-234 had been in service for some months by the time Bryan scored his first victory against the type, details were still scarce. Bryan was pressed to compare his observations against the drawings that Allied intelligence was using:

Wings okay. Nose more blunt with bulbous appearance at least 6 inches higher than the rest of fuselage. Top of fuselage appeared straighter than drawings. An antenna was rigged directly behind canopy with two objects resembling radar-stringers jutting from it. Another antenna on top of fuselage just to rear of wing. On under side [sic] of fuselage E/A appeared more square than drawings from mid-section back to tail.
Bryan’s comments were fairly accurate and useful, but not nearly so useful as the actual Ar-234s which were captured even before the war ended less than two months later.”

[AWC]

23 hours ago, 357th_KW said:

crossed the Rhine south of the bridge going west and then turned north making a very shallow dive run on the bridge, but did not drop his bombs.”

 

Thanks!

[Heliopause]

On 7/6/2022 at 10:35 AM, ZachariasX said:

Nice painting. They even put Pierre Clostermann in it, in his Tempest JF-E. I cannot find any indication in his flight log that he was actually was on a mission that far down in the American sector, even though he wrote a story about that appeared in (I think) all of the editions of his book. I suppose the painting was made based on that story. He was involved in operations Varsity and Plunder, but as far as I can gather, not with the crossing at Remagen.

 

Yes he writes about it in chapter called  "rat catching".

[jollyjack]

Look forward to that video, Lemsip !

Edited July 9, 2022 by jollyjack

[AWC]

6 hours ago, Heliopause said:

 

Yes he writes about it in chapter called  "rat catching".

 

On 7/6/2022 at 8:35 PM, ZachariasX said:

Nice painting. They even put Pierre Clostermann in it, in his Tempest JF-E. I cannot find any indication in his flight log that he was actually was on a mission that far down in the American sector, even though he wrote a story about that appeared in (I think) all of the editions of his book. I suppose the painting was made based on that story. He was involved in operations Varsity and Plunder, but as far as I can gather, not with the crossing at Remagen.

 

Yes. When compared to his actual flight log however it is clear that this is one of Clostermanns' historical fictions. He was not present at Remagen although some Tempests were present on the 14th.

[=KG76=flyus747]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:44 PM, LukeFF said:

Yes, all the bombings by Ar 234s at Remagen were done from high altitude using EGON. There was just far too much AAA to risk a glide bombing. 

 

I've tried to simulate this as best I can in career mode by equipping Ar 234s with the Lotfe bombsight and assigning them to level bombing on bridge bombing missions. 

Source?

[sevenless]

15 hours ago, Heilenbecker said:

Source?

 

Das Flurschadengeschwader for KG 51 and the KG 76 Chronik. Both books by Jan Horn.

 

Online available here:

 

Berliner Zinnfiguren | Horn, Jan: KG 76. Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders 76im Zeitraum 01.01.1944 bis 08,05,1945 | Online kaufen

 

Berliner Zinnfiguren | Horn, J.: Das Flurschaden-Geschwader. Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders "Edelweiß" zwischen 1. Januar 1944 bis Kriegsende | Online kaufen

[=KG76=flyus747]

10 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Das Flurschadengeschwader for KG 51 and the KG 76 Chronik. Both books by Jan Horn.

 

Online available here:

 

Berliner Zinnfiguren | Horn, Jan: KG 76. Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders 76im Zeitraum 01.01.1944 bis 08,05,1945 | Online kaufen

 

Berliner Zinnfiguren | Horn, J.: Das Flurschaden-Geschwader. Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders "Edelweiß" zwischen 1. Januar 1944 bis Kriegsende | Online kaufen

Can you share the excerpt?

 

How does this book compare to other Ar 234 books?

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Heilenbecker

[sevenless]

9 minutes ago, Heilenbecker said:

Can you share the excerpt?

 

How does this book compare to other Ar 234 books?

 

 

Go ahead and buy them. The most complete unit diaries of german jet units you can find. Some excerpts you can find in this thread:

 

 

[LukeFF]

18 hours ago, sevenless said:

Das Flurschadengeschwader for KG 51 and the KG 76 Chronik. Both books by Jan Horn.

 

Yes, and while I don't have his KG 76 book, the KG 51 book is a goldmine of information. It's proven invaluable to helping me make the KG 51 units in career mode be as accurate as they can be in 1944-45.

[=KG76=flyus747]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:44 PM, LukeFF said:

Yes, all the bombings by Ar 234s at Remagen were done from high altitude using EGON. There was just far too much AAA to risk a glide bombing. 

 

I've tried to simulate this as best I can in career mode by equipping Ar 234s with the Lotfe bombsight and assigning them to level bombing on bridge bombing missions. 

“this afternoon, three Ar 234 B-2s of III/KG 76 are engaged in individual attacks against the .2nbahn bridge at Remagen with Egon leading. At 2:10 p.m., the Ic-Of-ercer of III./KG 76, Oblt. Heinz Volbracht, takes off from Achmer with the F 1 + BD for this destroyer-celli:tauf the Ludendorff railroad bridge at Remagen. He is guided to the target by "Egon" then drops his SC 500 from gliding flight at an altitude of 500 to 600 m above the target.”

 

It sounds like EGON wasn’t just used to level bomb. Sometimes it simply served to guide the pilot to the target area from where he could make a visual glide attack on target at low altitudes of 500-600m.

 

This excerpt below further supports the claims that low level attacks were sometimes made on the Remagen bridges by 234s and that the target was never exclusively a high altitude level bombing only target.

Quote

the next day (14 Mar 45), the weather cleared, rendering the German aircraft more vulnerable to fighter attack. During the afternoon, 11 Arados from 6./KG 76 flew gliding attacks through heavy flak down to 500m on the bridge...Allied forces claimed 4xAr 234s...no further operations were flown until 17 Mar"
- Arado 234 Blitz by Smith & Creek.
 

Are you sure “all the bombings by Ar 234s at Remagen were done from high altitude using EGON”? 

On 6/23/2022 at 6:46 PM, Lemsip said:

Hello all

 

I'm planning on creating a cinematic on the the Ar 234 and Me 262 attacks on Remagen bridge in March 1945. However, most information I have read is general and lacking specifics. Here is what I know so far, but what I want to know is if a large scale attack with Ar 234s and Me 262s occurred like in the artworks attached below. I will probably be focusing on the 14th March attack as it had an intense run on the bridge and many dogfights.

 

 

March 9th 1945
III./KG76 flew three sorties against the Remagen bridge. Ofw Bruchlos of 8./KG76 was reported missing in WNr.140589 following an attack on the bridge.

 

March 11th 1945
Two Ar234s from III./KG76 attack the bridge.

 

March 12th 1945
Two Ar234s from the Stab and two from 6./KG76 bomb the bridge around noon. This was the first operational sortie flown by 6./KG76 with the Ar234. During the afternoon 14 Arado's from III./KG76 bomb the same target using Egon procedure. One aircraft WNr.140351 was damaged on landing.

Eight Me 262s from Gefechtsverband Kowalewski made an attack on the Remagen Bridge on the 12^th. A second attack on the bridge was flown later by eight more aircraft from III./KG 76 and I./KG 51

March 13th 1945
Seven Ar234s from 6./KG76 and 12 from III./KG76 bomb the bridge without success. Uffz Zwiener from III./KG76 bailed out near Wesendorf.

Four Me 262s from II./KG 51 made an attack between 0905 hrs and 1002 hrs at an altitude of 5000 m.

March 14th 1945
During the afternoon 11 Arados from 6./KG76 attacked the newly constructed pontoon bridge south of the main Ludendorff bridge at Remagen. Heavy flak and fighter defenses were encountered. Ofw Johne was shot down by a Spitfire and killed north of Limburg, Ofw Baumler and Fw Schulte were attacked by Lightnings but both bailed out safely and Hptm Morich's aircraft was damaged by flak and attacked by RAF Tempests. Hptm Hirschberger was shot down and killed by Mustangs.

 

March 17th 1945
Hptm Morich led an attack by two Arados from 6./KG76 on the Remagen bridgehead during the afternoon. Uffw Pohlmann was killed when his Arado (WNr.140180) was destroyed in a crash-landing at Burg following an engine failure.

 

Arado Ar234 Blitz by Smith and Creek. 
Arado Ar 234 Bomber and Reconnaissance Units by Robert Forsyth and Nick Beale.

Me 262 Bomber and Reconnaissance Units by Robert Forsyth

I think it is interesting to note the discrepancies in consistency of the drawings or perhaps they are portraying different attacks but from what I understand, all recorded details of the attack suggest attacks were made from the south but if you look at some paintings, they will show the Luftwaffe attacking instead from the north.

 

Just so we are on the same page, this is the location of that Ludendorff Bridge. The north side has a steep cliff, the south side is more flat. These differences help us orient the perspectives shown in the drawings.

 

 

This looks like an attack from the North, Northwest. Note cliff is on the north side. Low angle of the sun suggests this is a morning attack, but we know on the 14th, the attacks were made somewhere between 1200-1500 if I recall correctly.

this image looks more consistent with records. The LW is shown here attacking from the south, southwest and the time of day suggests something closer to the afternoon attacks recorded on the 14th.

 

This one I am not so sure. The buildings on the left suggest that is the south part of the bridge and therefore, the attack is being made from the North, Northwest. The time of day is difficult to predict. The weather is overcast but on the 14th, my sources claim it was clear day.

 

Bottom line, these images should serve as inspirations but the inconsistency of these 3 examples suggest, at least for some, artistic license was used. 
 

if I had to guess, I think the second image is the most realistic depiction of the attack.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Heilenbecker

[AWC]

3 hours ago, Heilenbecker said:

“this afternoon, three Ar 234 B-2s of III/KG 76 are engaged in individual attacks against the .2nbahn bridge at Remagen with Egon leading. At 2:10 p.m., the Ic-Of-ercer of III./KG 76, Oblt. Heinz Volbracht, takes off from Achmer with the F 1 + BD for this destroyer-celli:tauf the Ludendorff railroad bridge at Remagen. He is guided to the target by "Egon" then drops his SC 500 from gliding flight at an altitude of 500 to 600 m above the target.”

 

The next day (14 Mar 45), the weather cleared, rendering the German aircraft more vulnerable to fighter attack. During the afternoon, 11 Arados from 6./KG 76 flew gliding attacks through heavy flak down to 500m on the bridge...Allied forces claimed 4xAr 234s...no further operations were flown until 17 Mar"
- Arado 234 Blitz by Smith & Creek.

 

This image looks more consistent with records. The LW is shown here attacking from the south, southwest and the time of day suggests something closer to the afternoon attacks recorded on the 14th.

if I had to guess, I think the second image is the most realistic depiction of the attack.

 

This is the info I was looking for. The Arados in my video will attack from the south/southeast and dive from about 3000m and come down to 500m, thanks everyone for the help.

 

I believe that second painting is the 9th March attack and is accurate, the others I'm not so sure.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Lemsip

[AWC]

Here is the video, thanks for the help everyone

 

 

[No_85_Gramps]

Just wow! I really liked the editing and the narration added extra to the video! Thank you for sharing.

[MajorMagee]

Color Commentary On The Operational Aspects Of The AR 234