Ar 234 divebombing sight... how to use?

[belphegor4]

Does anyone have some information on how to use the divebombing sight?  I know you're supposed to set the target altitude above sea level, and the wind speed, but that's about the extent of the information.  Some posts I've seen here say you should set the plane's true airspeed as well, but the control for that doesn't seem to do anything (at least nothing shows up in the techchat, and no cockpit controls seem to move).

 

Anyway, after setting those, you go to the sight view, dive toward the target, and the small horizontal line that comes up from the bottom is your CCIP.  I've found the accuracy to be pretty good, but inconsistent, and I'm not sure if it's just my poor flying or if there's something else I need to be doing.

 

And related, is there any way to use the in-game map to find the ground elevation at a given point, or is that a feature I need to request?  Level bombing is understandably a secondary feature in Il-2, but nevertheless as part of the game it would be nice if we could have the information we need to be accurate with it.

[Hoss]

See how it compares to the Stuka dive sight on Requiems training videos... I have not had time to do that but make sure your bombsight light is turned on so you see the Bomb sight illuminated scale on the left side of the sight. 

[Sandmarken]

The windspeed i think is actually the true airspeed of the aircraft control. Look to the left side in the cockpit there is a dial that says 4 to 800 kph and it wil turn when you adjust the windspeed. ?

Edited June 16, 2022 by Sandmarken

[YoYo]

3 hours ago, belphegor4 said:

Does anyone have some information on how to use the divebombing sight?  I know you're supposed to set the target altitude above sea level, and the wind speed, but that's about the extent of the information.  Some posts I've seen here say you should set the plane's true airspeed as well, but the control for that doesn't seem to do anything (at least nothing shows up in the techchat, and no cockpit controls seem to move).

 

Anyway, after setting those, you go to the sight view, dive toward the target, and the small horizontal line that comes up from the bottom is your CCIP.  I've found the accuracy to be pretty good, but inconsistent, and I'm not sure if it's just my poor flying or if there's something else I need to be doing.

 

And related, is there any way to use the in-game map to find the ground elevation at a given point, or is that a feature I need to request?  Level bombing is understandably a secondary feature in Il-2, but nevertheless as part of the game it would be nice if we could have the information we need to be accurate with it.

Good question, Id like to know more about it too.

[Jade_Monkey]

+1 for a bit more detailed explanation.

[Hoss]

Went and looked at some of Requiem's tutorials, I found one with the Stuka that uses the Contact Altimiter.  I know when the Arado is in a dive the altitude alarm does go off, so I wonder if it's like Stuka's.  You can try some practice runs using the Bombsight Target Height, (RSht + Period/Semicolon) and the "Bombsight Airplane True Airspeed" (RSht + Comma/Slash) and see what happens. There was never anything given to the testing team on how it's actually supposed to work.

 

Requiem's tutorial on using the Contact Altimeter for Dive Bombing............. 

Its pretty much the same thing in the Ju-88 using the Contact Altimeter. 

[belphegor4]

OK, I finally found the bombsight instruments.  They're on the left console at the far back, behind your left elbow (attached screenshot, circled in red).  From outboard to inboard, they are the true airspeed setting, the target altitude setting, and the contact altimeter.

 

True airspeed setting:

This is controlled with the "Gunsight range adjustment / Bombsight: wind speed" keys (in Weapons controls section), default is RAlt-Semicolon/RAlt-Period.  Note that the aircraft specifications page for the Ar 234 currently gives the wrong keys for this (says RShift instead of RAlt)!  Also very confusingly, when you change this setting the techchat message says "Bombsight: wind speed" with values ranging from -100 km/h to 100 km/h, although the knob is clearly labeled from 400-800 km/h, so that's why I didn't think it was working...  Although the scale on the knob looks non-linear, it seems like it divides evenly into the techchat numbers, so -100 km/h in tech chat = 400 km/h on the knob, -75 km/h = 450 km/h, -50 km/h = 500 km/h, etc.  The default is 0 km/h in tech chat, therefore 600 km/h on the knob, which probably accounts for the sporadic accuracy I've had.

 

Target altitude setting:

This is controlled with the "Gunsight vertical adjustment / Bombsight: target height" keys (in Weapons controls section), default is RShift-Semicolon/RShift-Period.  This one works as expected and the techchat has the right label and values that match the knob.

 

Contact altimeter:

The all-white needle shows your current altitude and the white-and-red needle shows the set "contact" altitude.  This is controlled with the "Contact altimeter: target altitude increase" and "Contact altimeter: target altitude increase" keys (in the Plane controls section), default is RShift-K and RCtrl-K.  The altimeter needle shows your altitude relative to either "Standard atmosphere" or "Nearest friendly airfield elevation", same as your main altimeter; you can change the reference with the "Altimeter: reference pressure toggle" key (Plane controls section, default is LAlt-A).  I believe it works like the contact altimeter in other planes that have them (e.g. Ju-87) in that as you approach the set altitude, the buzzer starts, and when the buzzer stops it means you're at the set altitude.

 

So now that I may have a handle on the controls, one thing I want to experiment with is using the fancy new autopilot to stabilize my plane in a steady dive toward the target.  That should allow me to get to a stable speed and set it into the bombsight, and I can make fine left/right adjustments with the autopilot yaw channel.  Now all I have to do is figure out some way to reliably get the target height above sea level...

Edited June 17, 2022 by belphegor4
Contact altimeter does change reference.

[LukeFF]

2 minutes ago, belphegor4 said:

It looks like the altimeter always shows your altitude relative to "Nearest friendly airfield elevation", and doesn't change with the "Altimeter: reference pressure toggle" key (Plane controls section, default is LAlt-A) so keep that in mind. 

 

No, it does change along with the other altimeter. 

[belphegor4]

3 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

No, it does change along with the other altimeter. 

Ah yep, you're right, I just tested it again and saw it move, I guess I wasn't watching it closely enough before.  Edited my post above.  Thanks!

[Jade_Monkey]

So what are the numbers on the left once you look through the visor? I would have imagined altitude or speed but the numbers dont seem to match either.

[belphegor4]

1 hour ago, Jade_Monkey said:

So what are the numbers on the left once you look through the visor? I would have imagined altitude or speed but the numbers dont seem to match either.

I'm pretty sure that's the difference in angle (degrees) between the center of the crosshair (airplane centerline) and the bomb impact cursor.  Not sure if it serves a specific purpose though...  It seems like it would be more useful if it were a readout of your actual dive angle or something.

[Raptorattacker]

All these numbers!!..... ALL THESE NUMBERS!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaRGH!!!!!

I got an 'Unclassified' TWICE in O-Level Maths!! 

[YoYo]

8 hours ago, belphegor4 said:

OK, I finally found the bombsight instruments.  They're on the left console at the far back, behind your left elbow (attached screenshot, circled in red).  From outboard to inboard, they are the true airspeed setting, the target altitude setting, and the contact altimeter.

 

True airspeed setting:

This is controlled with the "Gunsight range adjustment / Bombsight: wind speed" keys (in Weapons controls section), default is RAlt-Semicolon/RAlt-Period.  Note that the aircraft specifications page for the Ar 234 currently gives the wrong keys for this (says RShift instead of RAlt)!  Also very confusingly, when you change this setting the techchat message says "Bombsight: wind speed" with values ranging from -100 km/h to 100 km/h, although the knob is clearly labeled from 400-800 km/h, so that's why I didn't think it was working...  Although the scale on the knob looks non-linear, it seems like it divides evenly into the techchat numbers, so -100 km/h in tech chat = 400 km/h on the knob, -75 km/h = 450 km/h, -50 km/h = 500 km/h, etc.  The default is 0 km/h in tech chat, therefore 600 km/h on the knob, which probably accounts for the sporadic accuracy I've had.

 

Target altitude setting:

This is controlled with the "Gunsight vertical adjustment / Bombsight: target height" keys (in Weapons controls section), default is RShift-Semicolon/RShift-Period.  This one works as expected and the techchat has the right label and values that match the knob.

 

Contact altimeter:

The all-white needle shows your current altitude and the white-and-red needle shows the set "contact" altitude.  This is controlled with the "Contact altimeter: target altitude increase" and "Contact altimeter: target altitude increase" keys (in the Plane controls section), default is RShift-K and RCtrl-K.  The altimeter needle shows your altitude relative to either "Standard atmosphere" or "Nearest friendly airfield elevation", same as your main altimeter; you can change the reference with the "Altimeter: reference pressure toggle" key (Plane controls section, default is LAlt-A).  I believe it works like the contact altimeter in other planes that have them (e.g. Ju-87) in that as you approach the set altitude, the buzzer starts, and when the buzzer stops it means you're at the set altitude.

 

So now that I may have a handle on the controls, one thing I want to experiment with is using the fancy new autopilot to stabilize my plane in a steady dive toward the target.  That should allow me to get to a stable speed and set it into the bombsight, and I can make fine left/right adjustments with the autopilot yaw channel.  Now all I have to do is figure out some way to reliably get the target height above sea level...

Thx for investigation  , will try it.

 

I hope that the Requiem Team will do soon tutorial for Ar-234 too.

7 minutes ago, Raptorattacker said:

All these numbers!!..... ALL THESE NUMBERS!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaRGH!!!!!

I got an 'Unclassified' TWICE in O-Level Maths!! 

 

I think U-boot captain had a more difficult task. ?

[Regingrave-]

10 часов назад, belphegor4 сказал:

This is controlled with the "Gunsight range adjustment / Bombsight: wind speed" keys (in Weapons controls section), default is RAlt-Semicolon/RAlt-Period.  Note that the aircraft specifications page for the Ar 234 currently gives the wrong keys for this (says RShift instead of RAlt)!  Also very confusingly, when you change this setting the techchat message says "Bombsight: wind speed" with values ranging from -100 km/h to 100 km/h, although the knob is clearly labeled from 400-800 km/h, so that's why I didn't think it was working...

The description will be fixed, thanks for noticing.

The knob currently has wrong texture, so technochat values are correct.

Скрытый текст

Also, real wind speeds cannot vary from 400 to 800 km/h, if you're not caught into a Coriolis storm on Arrakis. ?
https://youtu.be/tCylH-WzqrU?t=33

 

[ACG_Bussard]

Hi Guys,

 

found this today and I think this informations are quiet usefull:

 

3- Bombenzielanlage (BZA) (1fr1.net)

 

 

I´m looking for PDF copies from these official documents

 

 

Please PM me, if you can help me. Thanks!

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by 2./JG3_Bussard*

[Thales]

The real BZA bombsight computer had three input dials:

 

- "IHKG 1": height correction (for dialing in air pressure and target height)
- "IEG 1": true air speed (400 to 700 or 800 km/h)
- "IWG 1": wind speed (up to +/- 100 km/h in flight direction, there was no correction for side wind)

 

In IL2 this process is currently simplified, as true airspeed seems to be registered automatically. This leaves only the following input:

 

- target height
- wind speed

 

The dial for wind speed in the cockpit seems to have been confused with the "IEG 1" for true air speed, technochat correctly reports the change in wind speed setting. Without wind influence only target height has to be considered at the moment.

[IAmNotARobot]

1 час назад, Thales сказал:

The real BZA bombsight computer had three input dials:

 

- "IHKG 1": height correction (for dialing in air pressure and target height)
- "IEG 1": true air speed (400 to 700 or 800 km/h)
- "IWG 1": wind speed (up to +/- 100 km/h in flight direction, there was no correction for side wind)

 

In IL2 this process is currently simplified, as true airspeed seems to be registered automatically. This leaves only the following input:

 

- target height
- wind speed

 

The dial for wind speed in the cockpit seems to have been confused with the "IEG 1" for true air speed, technochat correctly reports the change in wind speed setting. Without wind influence only target height has to be considered at the moment.

We implemented BZA 1 B with automatic TAS input, texture of wind speed corrector will be fixed, so everything will be as it should

[YoYo]

What I wish, Id like to have those knobs for settings and wind on dive bombsight (periscope), something like in normal bombsig. Pls think about it. Operated by mouse of course too.

 

6 minutes ago, IAmNotARobot said:

We implemented BZA 1 B with automatic TAS input, texture of wind speed corrector will be fixed, so everything will be as it should

Thx.

Edited June 17, 2022 by YoYo

[IAmNotARobot]

2 минуты назад, YoYo сказал:

What I wish, Id like to have those knobs for settings and wind on dive bombsight (periscope), something like in normal bombsig. Pls think about it.

Thx.

I wish it too, but we have some technological limitations unfortunately, so we did our best with this sight

[YoYo]

18 minutes ago, IAmNotARobot said:

I wish it too, but we have some technological limitations unfortunately, so we did our best with this sight

 

Thx for reply, good to know.

I use VR most of the time plying IL2 so better to have all in one ... picture, not next shortcuts (or buttons even) ;). Maybe in the future? Fingers crossed :).

 

[IAmNotARobot]

The problem is that controls and aproach should be the same with upcomming Stuvi sight (don't ask me please, when it will be added)), which is usual collimator sight without special optic system (and without any dedicated camera and GUI). Thats why we used the same technology with gyro sight controls and not with GUI-based horizontal bombing sights.

[ACG_Bobo]

Stuvi? Attached to a Stuka D-5? 

[YoYo]

13 minutes ago, III./SG77-K_Bobo said:

Stuvi? Attached to a Stuka D-5? 

 

It was used in Me 210/410 Zerstörer too as I know, so I expect it in incoming 410. ?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

6 hours ago, IAmNotARobot said:

The problem is that controls and aproach should be the same with upcomming Stuvi sight (don't ask me please, when it will be added)), which is usual collimator sight without special optic system (and without any dedicated camera and GUI). Thats why we used the same technology with gyro sight controls and not with GUI-based horizontal bombing sights.

The Stuvi used in the Me 410 and Ju 87 etc would also have automatic TAS input? or would it be an earlier system where the player has to input it manually?

[YoYo]

On 6/17/2022 at 1:58 AM, belphegor4 said:

Target altitude setting:

This is controlled with the "Gunsight vertical adjustment / Bombsight: target height" keys (in Weapons controls section), default is RShift-Semicolon/RShift-Period.  This one works as expected and the techchat has the right label and values that match the knob.

 

 

How do you find out about target altitude?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

25 minutes ago, YoYo said:

How do you find out about target altitude?

This would be known beforehand, by looking at maps. It should be in the mission description; if it isn't, take a guess. 

[Avimimus]

Honestly, I haven't been tweaking the altitude adjustment (etc.), although I can see it being important for bombing targets at higher altitudes.

 

I found that I could use it as a decent CCIP (continuously calculated impact point) while diving on a target. The big issue is the lack of references in the cockpit as to what is exactly straight ahead. As a result I end up with lateral misses (i.e. from not overlying the target).

 

Two solutoins:

 

1) Aligning my head with the foot pedal in such a way that the mechanism for the toe breaks shows through the cut out in the foot pedal... this forms a primitive gunsight and helps me align with the target while in a slight climb. I'm not sure if there would be enough room to remove one's foot in real life though!

 

2) RAlt+A (engage Ar-234 autopilot), RAlt+R (engage only the roll channel). I then look through the sight (LShft+V) and line up the target using only rudder inputs. I have to keep the target on the line long enough that it stays there once I've released the rudder to neutral.

 

I've found that this helps a lot.

 

 

 

  

On 6/17/2022 at 1:33 PM, III./SG77-K_Bobo said:

Stuvi? Attached to a Stuka D-5? 

 

I've heard only the Ju-88A4 included a BZA bombing computer operationally (excepting some prototypes, like the periscope equipped Fw-190)? What about the Ju-188?

 

The D-5 Stuka Stuvi was a mistake apparently! That said a D-5/D-7/D-8 would be useful.

[ACG_Bussard]

Here´s my summary from my todays test bombings, which I like to share with you for an feedback and discussion.

 

Text is written in German, which is my mother tongue, but I think with all the pictures it´s quiet self explanatory.

 

 

[Lofte]

4 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I've heard only the Ju-88A4 included a BZA bombing computer operationally (excepting some prototypes, like the periscope equipped Fw-190)? What about the Ju-188?

Edited June 19, 2022 by Lofte

[YoYo]

8 hours ago, 2./JG3_Bussard* said:

Here´s my summary from my todays test bombings, which I like to share with you for an feedback and discussion.

 

Text is written in German, which is my mother tongue, but I think with all the pictures it´s quiet self explanatory.

 

 

English version pls?

[belphegor4]

20 hours ago, 2./JG3_Bussard* said:

Here´s my summary from my todays test bombings, which I like to share with you for an feedback and discussion.

 

Text is written in German, which is my mother tongue, but I think with all the pictures it´s quiet self explanatory.

 

Thanks!  Nevertheless I took the liberty of feeding the text through Google Translate to see if there was anything I might be missing...  Here's the main body of text on the left:

 

After the target has migrated out of the lower sighting area, transition to gliding.

The gliding flight then takes place with a path inclination angle / sight angle of 25 ° (see sight picture above). This avoids an excessively steep path inclination angle (overshooting the target or a dog turn).

Test result with this procedure:

When dropping from different heights (contact altimeter beep stopped), the intended target was reliably hit.

 

 

[ACG_Bussard]

Thank you for the translation, feel free to do so! My squadmates tested this procedure today and are happy with the results.

 

On note on the flight path angle (Bahnneigungswinkel): Dont go farther then 30°. Average flight path angle in the documented testings were 23 - 25°, that´s what I aimed for. Diving in the Ar 234 was forbidden by the offical documents.

[Lofte]

44 minutes ago, 2./JG3_Bussard* said:

Thank you for the translation, feel free to do so! My squadmates tested this procedure today and are happy with the results.

 

What if you have side wind?

And what if your front/back wind has different values for different heights (what value do you input in Vw-Geber (IWG 1))?

[Asgar]

14 minutes ago, Lofte said:

 

What if you have side wind?

And what if your front/back wind has different values for different heights (what value do you input in Vw-Geber (IWG 1))?

I‘d say, plan your ingress with wind direction in mind to maximize accuracy and select a drop altitude (use contact altimeter) and use the wind speed at that altitude

[ACG_Bussard]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:22 PM, Lofte said:

 

What if you have side wind?

And what if your front/back wind has different values for different heights (what value do you input in Vw-Geber (IWG 1))?

In my opinion you can choose an wind balancing angle (Luvwinkel/Windausgleichswinkel) like for the dive bombers:

 

 

 

 

 

But the official document for the Ju 88 indicates, that wind from the side isn´t covered by the BZA. My first testing results weren´t successfull, so best solution to side wind is avoiding it. Better choose an attack course with front/back wind, while front wind is favorable because it´s more accurate.

 

Regarding the front/back wind and his different values for different heigths: As far as I understand the official German documents for dive bombing (L.Dv. 20-2) the wind speed at the release altitude of the bomb is relevant. Using the contact altimeter is in my opinion helpfull. The impact of the wind after the bomb release should be minor by the mentioned official document (i.e. offset to the intended impact point should be lower then 3 m by an wind speed of 10 m/s at release altitude of 1.000 m).

 

But here´s an graphic which might answer your question:

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by 2./JG3_Bussard*
Complete post corrected and rewritten.

[Avimimus]

Observation - at 1000 metres Altitude and >650 km/h I can drop an SC-1000 with a contact fuse (no time delay) and pull a 4g banking turn away... and survive intact. It doesn' work if you try to overfly the target, but if you bank immediately after release you can actually pull your course out of the danger zone. It is that fast!

[=FB=VikS]

On 6/18/2022 at 1:20 AM, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

The Stuvi used in the Me 410 and Ju 87 etc would also have automatic TAS input? or would it be an earlier system where the player has to input it manually?

 

yes for Me-410, not sure yet about Ju-87 (as it seems dependent on time of modification intruduced)

[=/Hospiz/=MetalHead]

5 hours ago, =FB=VikS said:

 

yes for Me-410, not sure yet about Ju-87 (as it seems dependent on time of modification intruduced)

Ju 87?
Does that mean Ju 87/88 may get Stuvi as a late war mod once it's done for the 410?

[Avimimus]

If a revision is made to the existing Ju-88A4 at some point to simulate later variants - it might also be good to revise the bomb-load options to allow for some lighter historical load. For instance, there are a bunch of photos of 1xSC1000 (sometimes balanced with an SC500 or SC250.instead of a second SC-1000).

 

It was often better to have the added climb rate and cruise speed than to hit the target with a second SC-1000!

[Avimimus]

Question: The what are the limits on the autopilot gyros? I've been flying with only one channel turned on and I somehow doubt the system would remaining functional given how I fly. Does anyone know what the limits were?