What is the advantage of using a yoke instead of a regular stick?

[Customizer171]

I have been flying the P-38 a little bit and I think it is a nice aircraft but I don´t really understand what is the benefit of using a yoke instead of a

stick?

I also find it very hard so see some of the instruments because the view is blocked by the yoke.

Do you guys have any thoughts about this?

[CAFulcrum]

I just picked on up at the local thrift shop.  The feeling is quite different, you are physically twisting the wings, rather than rocking left and right, and pitch feels more like trimming the plane of a boat motor than actually 'bending' up and down.  I don't really like it, it seemed like it was a lot easier to get into stalls as you tend to hold the yoke in a constant forward/back position (this is a CH yoke where the column is horizontal and you push/pull for Y).  Ailerons are a little more intuitive.  I'd say the only real reason to pick one up would be for familiarization with a cessna, and some ergonomic advantages for large aircraft where you're 'truing' the aircraft into a flightpath rather than actively maneuvering.

[DEDMANcjp]

I think its advantage is in using your 2 arms to pull if elevator is locking at high speeds. Ailerons also

[Luftschiff]

11 hours ago, DEDMANcjp said:

I think its advantage is in using your 2 arms

 

I always assumed it was a basically a case of this yes - As well as better precision for smaller, sustained inputs.

More specifically I assumed that's why you'd usually see it on bombers and airliners who would have much larger control surfaces that would require more force to use and be more tiring to fly for long periods of time. As was noted above, it is less tiring/easier to keep a yoke into a specific position and with the big ol' long range bombers that's a definite boon. As for the P-38, it has comparatively massive control surfaces for a fighter and was designed as a very long-range escort aircraft so it could be for that same reason.

[ATAG_Headshot]

I believe for the P38 it's also because the nose gear folded up into the fuselage where a normal center stick would sit. You'll notice the yolk is connected to a bar that's offset to the side of the cockpit which puts the main linkages away from the nose gear. That, and having two hands able to easily hold the yolk could help put more force on it for higher G maneuvers. 

[Customizer171]

20 hours ago, CAFulcrum said:

I just picked on up at the local thrift shop.  The feeling is quite different, you are physically twisting the wings, rather than rocking left and right, and pitch feels more like trimming the plane of a boat motor than actually 'bending' up and down.  I don't really like it, it seemed like it was a lot easier to get into stalls as you tend to hold the yoke in a constant forward/back position (this is a CH yoke where the column is horizontal and you push/pull for Y).  Ailerons are a little more intuitive.  I'd say the only real reason to pick one up would be for familiarization with a cessna, and some ergonomic advantages for large aircraft where you're 'truing' the aircraft into a flightpath rather than actively maneuvering.

 

I am happy playing with my stick, lol, and I have no intension of buying a yoke. I realised that there must be some benefits since some aircrafts have them, mostly bombers and transports, but I never understood what those benefits were.

Thanks for your reply.

20 hours ago, DEDMANcjp said:

I think its advantage is in using your 2 arms to pull if elevator is locking at high speeds. Ailerons also

 

That makes sense ? 

8 hours ago, Luftschiff said:

 

I always assumed it was a basically a case of this yes - As well as better precision for smaller, sustained inputs.

More specifically I assumed that's why you'd usually see it on bombers and airliners who would have much larger control surfaces that would require more force to use and be more tiring to fly for long periods of time. As was noted above, it is less tiring/easier to keep a yoke into a specific position and with the big ol' long range bombers that's a definite boon. As for the P-38, it has comparatively massive control surfaces for a fighter and was designed as a very long-range escort aircraft so it could be for that same reason.

 

Sounds reasonable, however I dont understand whey it would be less tiring? With a trimmed aircraft I barely need to touch the stick when flying level and my arm rest against my leg, so it is very comfortable. However I do believe what you say since most bomber and also passenger planes have a yoke and it must be a reason behind that.

2 hours ago, ATAG_Headshot said:

I believe for the P38 it's also because the nose gear folded up into the fuselage where a normal center stick would sit. You'll notice the yolk is connected to a bar that's offset to the side of the cockpit which puts the main linkages away from the nose gear. That, and having two hands able to easily hold the yolk could help put more force on it for higher G maneuvers. 

 

Could be, but the p39 also have a nose gear and it still use a normal stick.

Dont any of you find it impractical because it is blocking the view to instruments and switches?

[DEDMANcjp]

Quote

On 6/2/2022 at 1:43 PM, Customizer171 said:

Dont any of you find it impractical because it is blocking the view to instruments and switches?

 

Oh you bet I do.  The Bf 110, P 38 and esp. the Hs 129.  Some times I think the neutral stick position is modeled too far fwd. and too high up in some planes but I don't know .

Have to sit in a real one to know for sure.

 

cjp 

Edited June 3, 2022 by DEDMANcjp
improve idea conveyance

[EAF19_Marsh]

21 hours ago, DEDMANcjp said:

I think its advantage is in using your 2 arms to pull if elevator is locking at high speeds. Ailerons also

Also the rationale for the RAF stick design.

[Art-J]

Maybe the reason was more simple / mundane. Before the Lightning, in 1930s the Lockheed guys pretty much designed only bigger multi engine planes with yokes. Maybe the yoke was just a solution they had properly sorted, felt most comfortable with it and considered it the best for a twin. They certainly had most experience with it.

 

I agree though, the damn thing blocks too many important instruments. But after flying Beaufighter in CloD I'm kind of used to it... same crap over there :).

Edited June 2, 2022 by Art-J

[Customizer171]

On 6/2/2022 at 8:49 PM, DEDMANcjp said:

Oh you bet I do.  The Bf 110, P 38 and esp. the Hs 129. 

 

What do you mean with this?

Both the Bf 110 and the Hs 129 has normal sticks and not yokes.

On 6/2/2022 at 9:26 PM, Art-J said:

Maybe the reason was more simple / mundane. Before the Lightning, in 1930s the Lockheed guys pretty much designed only bigger multi engine planes with yokes. Maybe the yoke was just a solution they had properly sorted, felt most comfortable with it and considered it the best for a twin. They certainly had most experience with it.

 

I agree though, the damn thing blocks too many important instruments. But after flying Beaufighter in CloD I'm kind of used to it... same crap over there :).

 

I think this is the most logic answer to my question, thanks!

Also having CloD and Tobruk but have not tried them yet. I am waiting until they get the support for VR wich will probably happen soon.

[Dragon1-1]

On 6/2/2022 at 7:43 PM, Customizer171 said:

Could be, but the p39 also have a nose gear and it still use a normal stick.

P-39 has more room in the nose, seeing that it's mostly the cannon and little else in there. The P-38, OTOH, has a very small nose with 4x.50cal, so the nose gear is under the cockpit. It's less about the gear and more about the fact that the P-38 is a very cramped design.

[DEDMANcjp]

Quote

What do you mean with this?

Both the Bf 110 and the Hs 129 has normal sticks and not yokes.

Yes but the stick grip is blocking my view of some very critical gauges, like your yoke is.  I cant find a perfect head position (Tir5) 

that allows for good instrument view and proper  gun sight alignment. Just kinda annoying is all

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, DEDMANcjp said:

I cant find a perfect head position (Tir5) 

that allows for good instrument view and proper  gun sight alignment. Just kinda annoying is all

When you are using TrackIR 5, simply lean to the left or right to see the gauges. You don't need to see them all the time. I am flying the 110 a lot and I am absolutely used to it. The pilots, who were flying it had to do the same.

[DEDMANcjp]

if that is how it was in real life then all is good?

[migmadmarine]

Also remember that in reality you have two eyes spaced apart which helps with seeing around things with less head movement whereas in game your essentially a cyclops, and of course things are designed for reality not sim cyclopes 

[=621=Samikatz]

One stick vs yoke thing I find curious is regarding the Mosquito; fighter-bomber and night-fighter models had sticks, but bombers and photo recon aircraft had yokes. I assume the difference was considered big enough to bother tooling up production for both control methods, and I'd be curious to read as to why DeHavilland thought so. Maybe it's pilot familiarity?

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

One stick vs yoke thing I find curious is regarding the Mosquito; fighter-bomber and night-fighter models had sticks, but bombers and photo recon aircraft had yokes. I assume the difference was considered big enough to bother tooling up production for both control methods, and I'd be curious to read as to why DeHavilland thought so. Maybe it's pilot familiarity?

From my experience with flying with stick vs. yoke here in the game, I would say flying with a yoke is smoother than with a stick, you have a better feeling for small corrections, while flying with a stick is better for maneuvering, like you do it with a fighter. I was flying the P-38 with my yoke and have to say, it was very difficult to even fly ground attacks, especially strafing runs were very hard to do. So in my eyes it definitely makes sense, what DeHavilland did.

[Customizer171]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

P-39 has more room in the nose, seeing that it's mostly the cannon and little else in there. The P-38, OTOH, has a very small nose with 4x.50cal, so the nose gear is under the cockpit. It's less about the gear and more about the fact that the P-38 is a very cramped design.

 

It could be like that, but I still feel that Art-J:s explanation about the guys at Lockheed was used to make planes with yokes, as the most logic explanation.

However, I am often wrong and this can be another mistake, hahaha.

8 hours ago, DEDMANcjp said:

Yes but the stick grip is blocking my view of some very critical gauges, like your yoke is.  I cant find a perfect head position (Tir5) 

that allows for good instrument view and proper  gun sight alignment. Just kinda annoying is all

 

I dont use a yoke in game, I use a normal stick, but I was thinking what the benefits were in real life.

Have not tried TiR so I dont know how that feels but I think I am having a similar feeling in VR when flying the P38.

6 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

When you are using TrackIR 5, simply lean to the left or right to see the gauges. You don't need to see them all the time. I am flying the 110 a lot and I am absolutely used to it. The pilots, who were flying it had to do the same.

 

Problem is that in the P38 you dont solve the problem by just leaning left or right to see all gauges and switches. Some of it is behind the transfer bar that go to the right side and to see behind that you need to get up and how do you do that when strapped down in the seat?

You are right that those who flew these aircrafts had to deal with this but in some aspects maybe it was easier since they could probably feel some of the switches wich we can't do in the sim. However, I do feel that it was not making things easier to those who flew these planes.

44 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

From my experience with flying with stick vs. yoke here in the game, I would say flying with a yoke is smoother than with a stick, you have a better feeling for small corrections, while flying with a stick is better for maneuvering, like you do it with a fighter. I was flying the P-38 with my yoke and have to say, it was very difficult to even fly ground attacks, especially strafing runs were very hard to do. So in my eyes it definitely makes sense, what DeHavilland did.

 

That makes sense for bombers but the P38 was not designed as a bomber, that's why I think it's a bit strange that a yoke was their choice. Like some people said it could be because lack of space because of the front landinggear or that it was more comfortable during long flights, but it would be nice to know the reason from a "real" source. 

[Hoss]

If it's a good Yoke, more controls at your fingertips.  HOTAY vice HOTAS

 

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, Customizer171 said:

Problem is that in the P38 you dont solve the problem by just leaning left or right to see all gauges and switches.

I was only refering to DEDMAN's post about issues with the Bf 110 and the Hs 129, that the sticks are blocking some gauges.

In the P-38 you are absolutely right. I guess they were leaning forward a bit or just moving the head forward might be enough in those small cockpits.

 

2 hours ago, Customizer171 said:

That makes sense for bombers but the P38 was not designed as a bomber, that's why I think it's a bit strange that a yoke was their choice. Like some people said it could be because lack of space because of the front landinggear or that it was more comfortable during long flights, but it would be nice to know the reason from a "real" source. 

Yes, a real source would definitly be nice to have. Apart from more comfort on long flights, I don't see any advantages for the pilot.

[Lusekofte]

Having a good yoke beat the hell out of a stick any time being accurate in aiming. It is a advantage having a yoke in heavier ac. It is a reason for it.

When it come to P 38 I guess it is in borderline.

Mosquito used yoke on is bomber version. I guess that is what it's pilots was trained to fly with. 

I hat flying planes having a yoke with a stick. People swear by vr for immersion.

I swear on the controls for immersion. 

That is why I have a sturdy floor mounted custom made stick. With hydronic dampers, and a high end yoke.

I care less about VR, I use it too but also screen 

Edited June 5, 2022 by LuseKofte

[SCG_motoadve]

I have a very good yoke PFC , all metal, feels real, also a very good stick Virpil with extensions.

In IL2 I would like to use the yoke for planes that use yoke and stick for planes that use stick.

Il2 does not allow two controllers, so need to choose one, so stick is the one I use, since I fly mostly fighters.

[Customizer171]

5 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Having a good yoke beat the hell out of a stick any time being accurate in aiming. It is a advantage having a yoke in heavier ac. It is a reason for it.

When it come to P 38 I guess it is in borderline.

Mosquito used yoke on is bomber version. I guess that is what it's pilots was trained to fly with. 

I hat flying planes having a yoke with a stick. People swear by vr for immersion.

I swear on the controls for immersion. 

That is why I have a sturdy floor mounted custom made stick. With hydronic dampers, and a high end yoke.

I care less about VR, I use it too but also screen 

 

Being more accurate is probably true (never tried one) since most bombers having them.

I agree that it's not optimal to fly a yoke plane with a stick, it feels strange.

Are you alternating between stick and yoke in IL-2 or is that for other games?

SCG_motoadve said that IL-2 did'nt allowed two controllers.

5 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

I have a very good yoke PFC , all metal, feels real, also a very good stick Virpil with extensions.

In IL2 I would like to use the yoke for planes that use yoke and stick for planes that use stick.

Il2 does not allow two controllers, so need to choose one, so stick is the one I use, since I fly mostly fighters.

 

I did'nt know that you could'nt switch between a stick and yoke in IL-2.

I hope that will be possible in the future.

[Crocogator]

Given that the yoke would have aerodynamic forces pushing it back I think it would be harder to stall than you'd think.

 

I think the main reason they had it is something to do with multi prop planes not having unequal forces acting on it. Though the yoke might also have been held in higher regard as a more modern design at the time.

[Irishratticus72]

Yokes were fabricated by Betamax, Sticks by VHS. 

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

2 minutes ago, Irishratticus72 said:

Yokes were fabricated by Betamax, Sticks by VHS. 

Damn, I'm getting old understanding that ?

Edited June 5, 2022 by SvAF/F16_Goblin

[Lusekofte]

16 hours ago, Customizer171 said:

 

Being more accurate is probably true (never tried one) since most bombers having them.

I agree that it's not optimal to fly a yoke plane with a stick, it feels strange.

Are you alternating between stick and yoke in IL-2 or is that for other games?

SCG_motoadve said that IL-2 did'nt allowed two controllers.

 

I did'nt know that you could'nt switch between a stick and yoke in IL-2.

I hope that will be possible in the future.

Two ways of doing it. Having two input folder or. Change pitch and roll for what you want to use. Buttons you can assign two setup 

It will be a plane based setup at one point.

I have a great custom made stick, but flying the P 38 with my fulcrum yoke is a real treat. 

[Jaegermeister]

From what I recall, the designers thought that the twin engine fighter was going to be too much task saturation for a normal fighter pilot to fly, so they designed the cockpit like a bomber, and recruited bomber pilots to transfer to the tactical air service to fly them. It was a heavy workload, but the new recruits coming from single engine trainers did fine later on.

 

That's a paraphrase so don't ask for a page and line number for a quote on that. I have a book somewhere about the development of the lightning but I don't know where it is.

[EAF19_Marsh]

While all of these are interesting points, I am pretty sure that it was an issue of weight / inertia and the benefit of having 2 arms to control the aircraft. No SE aircraft had yokes back then, some twins did and I am pretty sure that all larger aircraft had them. The common theme is increased size and weight. Spade grips were more usual in WW1, which may also have been based on the force needed to maneuver.

 

The RAF WW2 spade design was based on the utility of getting both hands on the stick for movement at high speed. Possibly this was also the reason for the Yak control approach.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

The RAF WW2 spade design was based on the utility of getting both hands on the stick for movement at high speed.

The German pilots, too, used both hands at highspeed maneuvering, just with the left hand put over the right hand. We are just not used to do so, because we don't need those high forces for flying at high speeds.

[BornToBattle]

I have all CH Products and have both, their throttle quadrant and rudder peddles always being “standard fare” no matter what I’m flying. Since I fly in VR with IL2 exclusively I’ll always plug in either the stick or yoke depending on which aircraft I’m intending to fly which is usually done during my careers - just to keep it a bit realistic and intuitive to the actual cockpit layout. I personally don’t have a preference of one over the other, though like others here I may say with the yoke perhaps I can be a tad more smoother on landings especially with annoying winds or perhaps because I’m so used to the yoke as the C-172 is pretty much all I fly in the “other flight sim”!
 

Flying the yoke with the A-20 is an absolute dream though, at least for me.

 

cheers!