Ammo rack explosion too often?

[E69_geramos109]

Hi all.

I am playing tank crew for some time now and I observed that for the 3 medium tanks ( t34, pz IV and sherman). The T34 has quite more explosive charge than the PzIV round in the APHE so is understandable that after penetration is going to make much more damage, this tanks are also full or ammo everywhere unprotected so I also guess that ammo catching fire was something that was normal. 

 

But I saw some stats somewhere about fires and crew survivability in the tanks, even diferenciating the tank model where you could see for example in the shermans how the wet ammo rack improved the survivability. 

Those stats are far from what happens in the game where a penetration hit in the Panzer IV ends in 90% ammo rack explossion, with all crew dead.

Does someone has any good report talking such things? Is a bit too weird for me to see the tank allways exploding.

[moustache]

this is a subject that has already been discussed, yes the explosions seem too frequent in game compared to what the books, documentations, etc. describe... the firing was frequent, but the explosions were rarer or later ( after prolonged firing...)

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Sherman with wet ammo didnt exist around this time. And burn/explosion rate were around 78-80% for most tanks on both sides, give and take with a bit of salt. But yeah, explosions in thd game could be toned down a bit since its more like 90% in panzer iv.

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

And burn/explosion rate were around 78-80% for most tanks on both sides

The question is, when exploding, did they explode immediately, or like @moustache guessed, after some time of burning, when the ammunition got too hot.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Havent seen any numbers on it. ? Closest is that the doctrine for german tankers were to bail asap if its burning near the ammo based on what military history not visualised says in one video.

[Yogiflight]

If you can't extinguish the fire, there isn't a lot you can do apart from that.

[Hanu]

And we don't even have T-72 in game!!

[moustache]

Oula to find figures... it is mainly through readings, watching documentaries or archive videos... in the end, we see few tanks explode in a catastrophic way, most will smoke or burn, but rare are the turret jumps several meters high...

 

an example, the famous cologne tank duel: the 1st sherman receives a fatal shot, several members are killed or injured, but the tank only smokes... . then, the panther, hit on its side by a 90mm shell (1 or 2 hit), under the turret, slightly behind, on a shot at almost 90° at what, 200/300m: it does not explode, but burns (intensely). .. part of the crew at the same time to escape :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aofpKiiqdA

 

we even see a small explosion (probably the ammunition), but it does not make the turret take off or implode the tank...

 

(edit: in this vidéo, they say 3 hit on flank part of panther)

Edited June 1, 2022 by moustache

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Correct, biggest fear and danger is the engulfed of fire and heat when a tank is hit and cock off the ammo and make a even worse fire, rather than exploding. I dont have experience but learned that ammo dont explode in a such way unless directly hit by enemy shot or very quick fire, else the shell will ”burn” rather than explode. Hence you see most knocked out tanks badly burnt/burning rather than exploded. 

Someone who is more well read what makes the ammo and tank to explode can fill us in on it.  
Tanks blowing up every time or as often as in the game with panzer IV or T-34 is a bit overdone, should have it possible the tank is burning/engulfed in flames possibility.

[MajorMagee]

The pressure of a constrained propellant fire will eventually blow a vehicle apart. Not really an explosion, per se.

 

There was an ammunition bunker filled with artillery propellant at Anniston Army Depot that "blew up" one night. The Ordnance School used it to show us how the construction was designed to channel the blast up through the roof and minimize collateral damage.

[JV44HeinzBar]

S!,

It would be nice to tone down the exploding effect. I would rather see the "brewing up" effect with a column of fire being eject from the commander's hatch. There are more than a few videos of this happening.

 

HB

[MajorMagee]

<iframe src='//players.brightcove.net/77374810001/HLNhtvNKjM_default/index.html?videoId=3607914453001' allowfullscreen frameborder=0></iframe>

Edited June 1, 2022 by MajorMagee

[moustache]

we are not saying that it is impossible, but on the game, it seems to us too frequent...

[Lofte]

Agreed with the majority. Wrote about many times. Instant (after hit) explosions are too often. I think this because of overpowered APHE after-penetration explosion effect.

Also would be good if we could reduce number of shells at mission start (60%, 40%, 20% etc.) to reduce probability of instant explosion

Spoiler

Btw, couple of words about nowadays tank experiense at war in Ukraine. Now crews of T-80 sometimes load in tanks only 50% of ammo to reduce probability of explosion. For cilty combat they desribe cases when they load only 5 shells in auto-loading device and it works good, tank can endure 3-5 direct hits of HEAT warheads of all types with only minimal crew injuries.

 

[E69_geramos109]

And what about the fuel?

T34 for example has fuel tanks in the sides close to the crew but I do not see tank burning because of that as much in the game. Was this fuel easy to ignite? I know is diesel and not benzine but diesel also explodes with pressure etc as aviation fuel when a plane crashes explodes but you put the lighter on it and is not igniting as benzine 

[SCG_judgedeath3]

26 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Was this fuel easy to ignite?

Burns as much as fuel actually, only difference is its less expansive when burning, some people have the idea that diesel dont burn....It do.
A lot of T-34s burned due to all the fuel tanks inside, can be seen in a lot of ww2 recordings, probably just as often as the reports mentioned earlier.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Burns as much as fuel actually, only difference is its less expansive when burning, some people have the idea that diesel dont burn....It do.

In fact Diesel doesn't burn as easily as gasoline, because it doesn't emit a lot of vapors, like gasoline. You can throw a burning match into a tub with Diesel and the flame will be extinguished. But you are right it can of course burn. In a closed fueltank in a warm tank compartment, there certainly is enough vapor to enlighten it. Also the fuel tanks at the rear top of T-34s were well known to be a death trap, when not jettisoned in time.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Exactly.

[Frinik22]

I also agree .In real battle conditions I would say no more than 5 to 10 % of combat vehicles would have their turrets blown off. It's too frequent in game  a.Another thing which is also not realistic is that vehicles on fire just burn for a few minutes and rather quickly the flames shrink and stop altogether. I have read many battle report sin which tanks would burn for days on.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

I think having the tank hulls remaining in the field and burning long time like you want, would be too hard on the game engine I fear.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

6 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

I think having the tank hulls remaining in the field and burning long time like you want, would be too hard on the game engine I fear.

I think in a single player long lasting smoke and destroyed vehicle would not be problem in current gen computers , for sure for immersion sake it should be made possible by clever coding and engine modification. In multiplayer sending those iformation could add overhead so also this should be done by netcode optimilizaion by pusing that to client side. It could be not presise just for visual immersion of the battlefield.

[Frinik22]

I have many  user made missions in Steel Fury a 15 years old game , featuring up to 100 tanks and with dozen continuously and the old game engine takes it very well.If ILs much more modern game engine canto accommodate fire and flames then they should scrape it and use for free the Cry Engine or Unreal Engine 5 or something.

[Voidhunger]

try the Gunner heat demo, now its on steam. Excellent for such small team. Fire, explosions are perfect!

[Frinik22]

I do have it .Excellent work by such a small team.Definitely a buy for me when it comes out! There's one that might tick your fancy if you would like to try a MP WW2 tank sim:

It's called Steel Gear Stalingrad made a Spaniard; a one-guy team who is doing wonders: https://www.steelgearsimulator.com

 

Guys Ima having graphic corruption issues since the recent, massive update , mostly the smoke of burning tanks /vehicles that looks like it's coming off cartoonish .I don't have the Team version so I can't have Steam verify the file integrity.Any way you can do that with the version purchased form the developer?

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, Frinik22 said:

I do have it .Excellent work by such a small team.Definitely a buy for me when it comes out! There's one that might tick your fancy if you would like to try a MP WW2 tank sim:

It's called Steel Gear Stalingrad made a Spaniard; a one-guy team who is doing wonders: https://www.steelgearsimulator.com

 

Guys Ima having graphic corruption issues since the recent, massive update , mostly the smoke of burning tanks /vehicles that looks like it's coming off cartoonish .I don't have the Team version so I can't have Steam verify the file integrity.Any way you can do that with the version purchased form the developer?

After you tried everything else, you can always do a clean install. I did the clean part, now I'm just waiting for them to fix Tank Crew to finish the install part.

Edited June 5, 2022 by LachenKrieg

[Frinik22]

That was I was trying to avoid. I will lose all the user made missions from Tigre 88 which you can't get anymore and the will have to reinstall the tank effects v10 etc.

 

Still, I have to admit that game is pretty slick .Getting into a tank, going to your mission's objectives, the sounds, the environment , the tank modelling are very well done. IF the devs were to put a bit more love and attention to the TC part and less to the aircrafts this game-sim could become , by far, the best in its niche. But regretfully it feels like the kid brother who gets less attention from his parents than the eldest .

Edited June 5, 2022 by Frinik22

[MajorMagee]

The only cartoonish effect I've noticed was contained in the Tank War Effects mod version 10c that was just updated to support the latest game update. The stock effects, and the earlier 10c version of JSOflyer's mod are fine.

[Frinik22]

I did install the latest version of your effects which is very good.?

 

I finally resolve my issues.I had copied the game right after the initial installation. I just used a copy of the graphics folder from the copy of the game and pasted into my current installation . My graphics are back to normal now an I reinstalled the tank-war-effects version 10. No more issues.I wish we could skip their damned upgrades which add nothing to the Tank Crew part f IL2. They often corrupt mod

s and stuff.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Frinik22

[MajorMagee]

This effect still looks unnatural. The grey and yellow texture elements just lift straight up and down like a fountain of rocks.

[Frinik22]

Indeed it looks terrible! Even Panzer Elite, the venerable Ole Girl, has better smoke and fire effects than this!

[MajorMagee]

The earlier versions of dustlong.dds were much more transparent, and the explosion had more lateral movement.

Edited June 7, 2022 by MajorMagee

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

10 hours ago, Frinik22 said:

Indeed it looks terrible! Even Panzer Elite, the venerable Ole Girl, has better smoke and fire effects than this!

yep they need hire special effects artists ASAP, some stuff look terrible indeed 

[Frinik22]

Wow! Thanks JSOFlyer. Christmas is coming early this year!?

15 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

The earlier versions of dustlong.dds were much more transparent, and the explosion had more lateral movement.