Spitfire XIV Questions

[JG27_Mainz]

I have some questions about flying the Spitfire XIV.

 

Are there any disadvantages to using the clipped wings? What circumstances would give better performance with stock wings over clipped wings?

 

What is the best way to fine adjust your aim? I find that the lag with elevator/rudder input makes it hard to aim when you are bearing down on an enemy. Is there another technique for aiming, or is there some way to make the controls more responsive?

 

Under what situations does the Spitfire XIV outperform the Tempest? It seems like everything the Spitfire XIV can do, the Tempest can do better, and is an easier aircraft to fly.

[354thFG_Panda_]

18 hours ago, IV./JG51-P_Mainz said:

I have some questions about flying the Spitfire XIV.

 

Are there any disadvantages to using the clipped wings? What circumstances would give better performance with stock wings over clipped wings?

 

What is the best way to fine adjust your aim? I find that the lag with elevator/rudder input makes it hard to aim when you are bearing down on an enemy. Is there another technique for aiming, or is there some way to make the controls more responsive?

 

Under what situations does the Spitfire XIV outperform the Tempest? It seems like everything the Spitfire XIV can do, the Tempest can do better, and is an easier aircraft to fly.

Clip wings reduce the turning ability of the XIV. Both in instantaneous and sustained turn. They might also reduce climb rate as more power required to overcome the increased induce drag. On the other hand the clip wing variant is slightly faster and rolls better. I find it slightly more stable too. Aiming with it just takes practice, it's quite quirky.

 

The XIV out accelerates, out climbs the tempest by a large margin at full power though is slower low down. At higher altitudes the XIV is significantly faster than the tempest and is one of the best high altitude fighters. In terms of turning they are similar(?) but the handling of the tempest is much more forgiving. So generally use the tempest for lower altitude work and the XIV for higher which is kind of how both were used in service.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by =R.M.A.S=theRedPanda

[EAF19_Marsh]

Frankly, the negatives are pretty minor under most circumstances but the roll increase is rather nice.

[ShamrockOneFive]

A good number of the Spitfire XIV's on the continent were Mark XIVe with the .50cals and clipped wings. The benefits in low level tactical sorties outweighed the negatives.

 

Versus the Tempest, I've read a number of accounts of a kind of friendly rivalry between Tempest and Spit XIV squadrons on who had the better super fighter. Both were approaching the peak of what a piston engine propeller driven fighter could do and both have some pros and cons. A lot of the Tempest's quirks are just not something you can easily simulate - like the ground crew keeping a fire extinguisher nearby incase the Sabre II didn't start and instead lit itself on fire. Or the carbon monoxide leaks into the cabin requiring pilots to use oxygen at all times. The Spitfire didn't have those problems but it was tricky handling on the ground (which we can and do have simulated) and of course the big engine crammed into a Spitfire fuselage did degrade the handling somewhat.

[Avimimus]

I believe that the clipped wing Spitfire IX and XIV had greater effective rigidity relative to their wing area - so one could safely dive bomb at higher speeds than in the non-clipped wing version - another benefit when engaging in low level operations.

 

P.S. What I find interesting is that the recon Spit XIV was clip winged - I wonder why that was?

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

With full wings you're more stable when riding the edge of a stall, and you burn less energy when turning as well. Trimming nose heavy helps with aiming, but it's still awkward and is the planes biggest weakness and you just have to suck it up or fly a different plane until when/if it gets relooked at. You can speed things up by pulling back the stick more than you'd need, then quickly releasing a little before your nose pulls too many Gs. It's an unpleasant way to fly but it can help with quick maneuvering, but doesn't help so much with fine aiming.

 

[JimTM]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

...

P.S. What I find interesting is that the recon Spit XIV was clip winged - I wonder why that was?

 

Maximum speed to run away from the bandits?

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I believe that the clipped wing Spitfire IX and XIV had greater effective rigidity relative to their wing area - so one could safely dive bomb at higher speeds than in the non-clipped wing version - another benefit when engaging in low level operations.

 

Given that only one squadron was dive-bombing in their Mk. XIVs and their planes had full-span wings, the debate of clipped vs. non-clipped was a non-issue. 

 

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

A good number of the Spitfire XIV's on the continent were Mark XIVe with the .50cals and clipped wings. The benefits in low level tactical sorties outweighed the negatives.

 

Most of the clipped-wing XIVs went to Southeast Asia before VE day, actually. ? Very few of the high back XIVs on the Continent had clipped wings, at least before the end of the war in Europe. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by LukeFF

[EAF19_Marsh]

Re: difference with Tempest one of the ones is / should be that the Spit has a worse continuous cruise at lower levels and takes a bit longer to get up to combat speed. 

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, JimTM said:

 

Maximum speed to run away from the bandits?

 

That is what I would've thought - but apparently the clipped wing Spit IX was slower overall than the normal span version. I suspect the XIV may have been similar. Turns out that elliptical wings have smaller tip vortices (or something along those lines).

 

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Given that only one squadron was dive-bombing in their Mk. XIVs and their planes had full-span wings, the debate of clipped vs. non-clipped was a non-issue. 

 

Ah - well, what of the Spit IX? It had an advantage there for dive bombing I assume?

[EAF19_Marsh]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

That is what I would've thought - but apparently the clipped wing Spit IX was slower overall than the normal span version. I suspect the XIV may have been similar. Turns out that elliptical wings have smaller tip vortices (or something along those lines).

 

 

Ah - well, what of the Spit IX? It had an advantage there for dive bombing I assume?

Really? That’s odd. I also would have thought that the greater form drag of the tips would offset better induced drag owing to cleaner airflow separation. Especially at lower level with denser air.

[Aurora_Stealth]

15 hours ago, =R.M.A.S=theRedPanda said:

Clip wings reduce the turning ability of the XIV. Both in instantaneous and sustained turn. They might also reduce climb rate as more power required to overcome the increased induce drag. On the other hand the clip wing variant is slightly faster and rolls better. I find it slightly more stable too. Aiming with it just takes practice, it's quite quirky.

 

The XIV out accelerates, out climbs the tempest by a large margin at full power though is slower low down. At higher altitudes the XIV is significantly faster than the tempest and is one of the best high altitude fighters. In terms of turning they are similar but the handling of the tempest is much more forgiving. So generally use the tempest for lower altitude work and the XIV for higher which is kind of how both were used in service.

 

This is spot on, although it should be said that in real life the Tempest V was somewhat less nimble at lower/moderate speeds than it appears in IL-2 (at least in terms of turn performance), which makes it in-game harder to distinguish the differences between the two... (there's a thread for that so I'm not going to regurgitate it).

 

Just like the Bf 109 and Fw 190 ... they complemented eachother in different ways, so too did the Spitfire Mk XIV and Tempest. One of the defining factors in both comparisons is the loaded weight, and that unsurprisingly (in real life) did affect the tactics and doctrine. If the Tempest flight model does eventually get updated then it may be a lot less tempting/forgiving to engage in a close in dogfight, its simply a much heavier machine.

 

The Tempest was (in some ways similar to the Fw 190) a low altitude interceptor using its brute force, outright power and sustained high speeds for aggressive zoom dives/climbs which could then run away with its accumulated high speed to avoid the need to dogfight. Somewhat different tactics but both very good at what they did.

[ShamrockOneFive]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Most of the clipped-wing XIVs went to Southeast Asia before VE day, actually. ? Very few of the high back XIVs on the Continent had clipped wings, at least before the end of the war in Europe. 

Well now I'm going to have to do some reading

[CountZero]

14 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Re: difference with Tempest one of the ones is / should be that the Spit has a worse continuous cruise at lower levels and takes a bit longer to get up to combat speed. 

Yes, you will not fly them on emergancy/boost, its just 5min, so combat power of 1h is more interesting to compare, and tempest is there faster up to 8,5km, and in game you dont have many fights abow that alt, so Tempest is realy better airplane in game then Spit 14, and bubble canopy one should be slightly wors then one we have now, as its heavyer because it carry more fuel.

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Do you have the Mossie data for the same graph?

[Avimimus]

11 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Really? That’s odd. I also would have thought that the greater form drag of the tips would offset better induced drag owing to cleaner airflow separation. Especially at lower level with denser air.

 

I was surprised too. But the test reports (discussed in a previous thread months back) appear to show only a tiny difference, and then usually in favour of the unclipped version.

[EAF19_Marsh]

4 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

I was surprised too. But the test reports (discussed in a previous thread months back) appear to show only a tiny difference, and then usually in favour of the unclipped version.

Mr. Mitchell clearly knew his stuff.

[CountZero]

55 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Do you have the Mossie data for the same graph?

This is speed for in-game airplanes, so ill have its data when he gets added to game in, "two weeks" for sure

 

[CountZero]

On 5/30/2022 at 8:11 PM, EAF19_Marsh said:

Do you have the Mossie data for the same graph?

It come soner then expected, here is how 18lbs mosquito compares to 18lbs spit 14, its almost as fast down low:

 

 

[Tipsi]

On 5/29/2022 at 5:54 PM, IV./JG51-P_Mainz said:

What is the best way to fine adjust your aim?

An underrated solution is to change your joystick sensitivity values so that when you pull the stick, it moves less.

 

especially effective in spitfires with very responsive pitch control

[EAF19_Marsh]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

It come soner then expected, here is how 18lbs mosquito compares to 18lbs spit 14, its almost as fast down low:

 

That is one darned quick aircraft

[CountZero]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:06 PM, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

That is one darned quick aircraft

Yes, didnt expect it to be so good down low, up high should be easy picking for 109s, but no axis twin prop can match it in DF, doubt 410 will change that.

[AndytotheD]

Speaking of the Spitfire XIV, with regard to the teardrop canopy version, did anyone actually score a kill with one before the end of the war?

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, AndytotheD said:

Speaking of the Spitfire XIV, with regard to the teardrop canopy version, did anyone actually score a kill with one before the end of the war?

Yep. Not sure on the number.

 

In the third volume of the RAF 2nd TAF books by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas there's a photo of a F.XIVe with bubble canopy and a note about it recording a kill. The exactly aircraft was Spitfire F.XIV MV264 "EQ-B" serving with No. 41 Squadron. Shot down a FW190 on May 1.

 

As one example.

Edited June 6, 2022 by ShamrockOneFive

[RossMarBow]

XIV vs IX because usually you have a choice

 

IX is better down low, or like people have said take the tempest

 

XIV is probably the best plane up real high

 

I don't clip either because the performance on the edge of stall and ability to turn is more important as its your strength vs your opposition than being able to roll slightly faster for no real benefit. 
Clipped wing also reduces its strengths at extreme altitudes. 

 

And if you are playing multiplayer, not being mistaken for a 109 is a bonus. 

[percydanvers]

On 5/29/2022 at 11:54 AM, IV./JG51-P_Mainz said:

I have some questions about flying the Spitfire XIV.

 

Are there any disadvantages to using the clipped wings? What circumstances would give better performance with stock wings over clipped wings?

 

What is the best way to fine adjust your aim? I find that the lag with elevator/rudder input makes it hard to aim when you are bearing down on an enemy. Is there another technique for aiming, or is there some way to make the controls more responsive?

 

Under what situations does the Spitfire XIV outperform the Tempest? It seems like everything the Spitfire XIV can do, the Tempest can do better, and is an easier aircraft to fly.

 

It's kind of the same dynamic as between Fw-190s and Bf-109s. My view is that for fighter vs fighter combat it's the 109/spitfire, for everything else the Fw-190/Tempest

[150_GIAP-Red_Dragon]

Ha-ha.. Try a duel wiht Spitfire 14 against the 110th with 20% fuel at an altitude of about 7000 m ?

Edited June 9, 2022 by -332FG-Red_Pilot

[CountZero]

SPit9 25lbs compared to spit14 21lbs speedwise:

 

 

even 18lbs spit14 is faster at any alt.

 

If you have mix of tempest and spit14s in air thats deadly combo

[RossMarBow]

On 5/30/2022 at 4:54 AM, IV./JG51-P_Mainz said:

I have some questions about flying the Spitfire XIV.

 

Are there any disadvantages to using the clipped wings? What circumstances would give better performance with stock wings over clipped wings?

 

What is the best way to fine adjust your aim? I find that the lag with elevator/rudder input makes it hard to aim when you are bearing down on an enemy. Is there another technique for aiming, or is there some way to make the controls more responsive?

 

Under what situations does the Spitfire XIV outperform the Tempest? It seems like everything the Spitfire XIV can do, the Tempest can do better, and is an easier aircraft to fly.

 

If you want speed take the tempest or the P51 they are much better planes to fly than the Spit XIV

8.5 km or higher seems to be the only place XIV has a role

At 1km your only looking at a 10kph speed difference with the spit9 so its not worth losing the turning ability. 
Clipped has less turning and a higher stall speed? So not worth the extra roll rate.

 

SPit9 25lbs compared to spit14 21lbs speedwise <- what are the timers on those? both 5mins?
the 15 30 60 min times matter a lot more if your using a speed advantage, and wanting to climb up to 8.5km+

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by brahguevara

[CountZero]

4 hours ago, brahguevara said:

 

If you want speed take the tempest or the P51 they are much better planes to fly than the Spit XIV

8.5 km or higher seems to be the only place XIV has a role

At 1km your only looking at a 10kph speed difference with the spit9 so its not worth losing the turning ability. 
Clipped has less turning and a higher stall speed? So not worth the extra roll rate.

 

SPit9 25lbs compared to spit14 21lbs speedwise <- what are the timers on those? both 5mins?
the 15 30 60 min times matter a lot more if your using a speed advantage, and wanting to climb up to 8.5km+

 

 

Left is combat mode speed, and right is emergancy mode speed.

Yes P-51 is faster but it dosent have 20mm  in this game with questionable HE vs AP damage advantages and no API for .50 , airplane with 20mm HE ammo is big advantage.

Edited June 11, 2022 by CountZero

[CountZero]

56 minutes ago, dogefighter said:

40kph speed difference*

 

He was probably talking about their combat speed differances, as most of flight thats what is used.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

By the manual the Spit 9 should have a 5 min WEP timer, but in truth it has a 6 min timer with 100 octane, and a 4 min timer with 150 octane. The spit 14 has an accurate 5 minute timer for 100/150. If you do RPM shenanigans with 88 RPM / 100 throttle you can get ~15 minutes in the Spit 9 with 100 octane, and ~7 minutes with 150 octane. The 14 at 75 RPM / 100 Throttle gives you ~10 minutes for both octanes. They should have the same timers if your looking at the manuals, but really the Spit 9 150 octane has the worst timers of the 4 possibilities. 

[RossMarBow]

Yea that's a trick I have started using a lot.
You can usually cut RPM back to 59-69% if you are already flying fast and a level.
Saves a lot of heat, fuel, and timer.

I find personally and based on the experiences of people I fly with, the spit XIV without 150 and not being in the 5 min zone its a real difficult plane to fly.
Even with it will get into nasty spins very easily compared with tempest, spit9, and mustang. 

And really just stand by my point that the Greif'n should be avoided unless your willing to baby sit it and really stick to making use of its narrow performance advantages.
If you only ran bomber defense missions at maximum altitudes its a strong recommend otherwise...
but extremely limited fuel and no drop tanks can make this impossible

If we look at its contemporaries
Tempest is easy to fly at all speeds and has 4x20mm and you can't spin, bad accel and climb, high speed dive capable
Spit9 has same guns, actual low speed performance, best acceleration and climb, weak tail damage model, can spin, seems pretty decent in a high speed dive?
Stang good speed, good turning down to medium speeds, some people have a problem with 50cals I don't, can spin, bits fall off in high speed dive

Is G suit only limited to stang?

Also theirs probably a reason why the British air force didn't really like it much either. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Only the P51 D has a G suit, and only from September, 1944 onward.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

7 hours ago, brahguevara said:

Yea that's a trick I have started using a lot.
You can usually cut RPM back to 59-69% if you are already flying fast and a level.
Saves a lot of heat, fuel, and timer.

You can cut back the RPM farther for speed but it takes a big hit out of climb/acceleration. If you cut it to 88 for the 9 and 75 for the 14 then you lose very little (1-5%) dogfight performance as long as your in the sexy altitudes for either supercharger stage. If your in or near the supercharger gap you'll get a big performance hit for dropping the RPM. You can tell by looking at your boost level, if you drop the RPM but you boost stays at max, then your only getting a very small performance hit but a greatly extended timer, if the boost level drops your getting a big hit but also an extended timer.