Can we have our rear-gunners back?!

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Dear Devs.

As it is now, and yes, I do know this have been said before but I believe it can't be said enough. The rear-gunners are useless!
Enemy fighters can as it is now, park on ones six and couldn't care less, as he knows he is safe. In the attached trackfile, you can see the gunner doesn’t even try to shoot, even though he has a clear sight to the enemy aircraft. He does not react before the fighter is passing, an then it's just a shot for fun, because he doesn’t even try to aim infront of the attacker.
 

Trackfile

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Loke

[6./ZG26_Loke]

You didn't read what I wrote. 

The gunner did nothing. If it had been manned it would have been a different result, not saying we would have survived or got a kill, but sure as h*** have hit the fighter, or atleast have forced him to evade. 

Beside, if you should man your own reargunner, who should fly then? And no, you do not get people enough to fly as gunners. Therefore we need better and far more realistic gunners. Unless the Devs of course, prefer this game to be a fighter game only.

 

It is also not about what is more realistic, but about game play. You will never get it realistic anyway, as you will never get all station manned. You will not encounter a flight of 50 aircraft, you already see people take off and land as they see fit and so on. So no, it is not and never will be realistic. It's a game! 

Being a game, then make it a game for all, and not just a Turkey shooting game. 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Loke

[6./ZG26_Loke]

"First attack run on Loke : Gunner killed instantly". 

Watch the track. The gunner does not fire when the P-51 is on the six. Gunner is very much alive, and open fire when the P-51 passes overhead, but not in direction of the aircraft. 

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Question. 

Why do bombers and ground attack aircraft fly in formation? 

 

And you still do not read what I write. Watch the track file! 

[Barnacles]

My 2p worth. 

 

If it's a straight up choice between how it was and how it is now, it's a no brainer. Current model every single time. 

 

However Loke is right in that sometimes the gunner does nothing.

Whether that's due to netcode, or gunner blacking out, is something that I don't know. Maybe this should be investigated? 

 

As it is right now I still think rear gunner planes still get a pretty sweet deal as they have a 360 degree RWR, and their gunners are still an effective deterrent as far as I can tell, a lot of the time. If they ever don't open up, it's karma for all the BS one-shot snipes they've been the beneficiaries of over the years. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Barnacles

[6./ZG26_Loke]

25 minutes ago, dogefighter said:

Because they wanna look good when they get blasted out of the sky.

 

At least you have humor ?.

They flew in close formation to protect each other, and increase the danger for an attacking aircraft. If that didn't help, then why did they do it in rl?

Let me help you. Here screenies from the trackfile, and the gunner is very much alive.

 

[Barnacles]

23 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

At least you have humor ?.

They flew in close formation to protect each other, and increase the danger for an attacking aircraft. If that didn't help, then why did they do it in rl?

Let me help you. Here screenies from the trackfile, and the gunner is very much alive.

 

Image 2 is where you should've dropped an SC500. 

 

A 110 pilot killed me like that yesterday. 

[86th_Buzzi]

I'm trying to find video or written accounts of mass formations of Bf-110s holding formation while under fighter attack. Not having any luck. Is that something they did?

[6./ZG26_Loke]

37 minutes ago, Barnacles said:

Image 2 is where you should've dropped an SC500. 

 

A 110 pilot killed me like that yesterday. 

Delay was set to 0.05 so it would have detonated too late. 

Did try it with two 1000kg on a Ju88, but no luck. 

 

Anyway, well done ?

[Hitcher]

Look ma' I'm on TV!

[Denum]

You guys just maintained formation instead of breaking? 

[CountZero]

In our MP bombers or ground attackers dont have historical benefits they had, so they should not have historical gunners.

What we had before was better then what we have now, ace skill fit MP enviroment we have in game, i could live with ocasional pk by them or engine broken, now if your flying ground attacker or bomber with rear gunners and your gunners are inefective (historical) its on you, just fly fighter airplane like most of players, in the end this is fighters only MP enviroment, you should use GA or bombers only to DF.

Edited May 21, 2022 by CountZero

[SYN_Vander]

Do you know what skill level the AI have? If it’s not the highest, you can ask the server owners to change the AI level.

[CountZero]

4 minutes ago, SYN_Vander said:

Do you know what skill level the AI have? If it’s not the highest, you can ask the server owners to change the AI level.

all popular servers have it at ace for long time now, it dont help mutch to change skill like it did before.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

The original post is a poor example.  The 110 needs to be PROPERLY 2 inches from the ground so the attacking plane can't get on the low 6.  That way any enemy plane on the direct 6 can only fly though the bomb wash as the 110 strings them along cheesing out bombs as they go.

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, dogefighter said:

Bad take. First of all, bomber guys are free to organize fighter escorts for themselves. Second of all not every bombing mission ever consisted of 50+ planes. Smaller raids were done all the time by all air forces in WW2. So realistic sized bomber formations + escorts are perfectly possible ingame. You don't add super gunners and punish everyone else because some ppl don't wanna organize and like to fly solo.

 

Wrong.

 

Agree with this one, it absolutely is the fault of the solo bombers for not asking for escorts. And at least in the case of late war western scenarios, the fault also kinda lies with the mission makers for including aircraft like Bf110s, He111s and other heavy fighters/bombers that had been withdrawn from daylight operations by then IRL for a good reason.

Ah yes bomber players should fly like their ww2 pilots did but fighter pilots should soloyolo every sortie without any formations or limits on engagements, or posibility for not knowing when bombers start, or will attack, and so on.

 

Like i said this game is fighters only playground in MP, if your bomber or GA your waisting your time here, before fighters mafia got what they wonted we got options with AI gunners, servers could reduce their skill if it was that bad, now we have no option, even best skill will get you kia every time.

Edited May 21, 2022 by CountZero

[6./ZG26_Loke]

1 hour ago, dogefighter said:

Bad take. First of all, bomber guys are free to organize fighter escorts for themselves. 

Agree they are. Just not gonna happen, when most fighters prefer going of on their own.

Believe me, we have tried it many times in the past, with little result, no matter which side we flew on. 

 

I was lucky one time last night, having one escort plane when I flew a support mission. 

 

Only way to get that to work, would be in coop mission, which arn't really working. 

 

I really miss HyperLobby, where we could get this to work. Here in this game, it does not. 

[Hellequin13]

Ah, another thread where someone points out a glaring flaw in the system and some chuckle head has to chime in and say "working as intended". No wonder bugs last too long: never a consensus on anything because your game experience is not being negatively affected, so clearly there isn't a problem.

 

Let's be absolutely clear about one thing: the AI only planes have very decent gunners.They do still have some unrealistic behaviors, like tracking targets outside of their field of view (and being able to get impossible shots on you just as you enter their field of fire). And then there is the plane tumbling out of the sky, a burning wreck, sans wings, and the gunners are still firing away at you, and hitting. But other than a few logic errors, they function as intended, making the mutli-seater a dangerous target. The player controlled craft does not get the same AI gunners.

 

The gunners we get to protect us are useless. They don't track targets worth a damn, often firing at angles off in excess of 90 degrees, panning around wildly like they are in the midst of a seven day bender. The behavior is as if they lose alignment with the axis of our plane, the more you maneuver the further off alignment they get, the wider their shots get.

 

This is not reserved to MP only either, start a quick mission matching your two-seater vs an AI one and you'll see that the AI only plane is well covered, while the drunkard in the back seat we're saddled with can't hit the broadside of a barn, while parked in that barn.

 

This is not a player problem, so stuff the 'git gud' mantra. No amount of pilotage or preparation is going to address the fact that player controlled plane's Ai gunners are clearly not functioning as intended. This is a software problem that needs to be fixed, Our gunners are useless.

[CountZero]

Also in MP enviroment we have you dont have any cooperation, you can not make it so bomber guys can play only if they wait for hours to pair up or fined wiling escort... its fast food enviroment, and gunners should be better then in reality, or atleast that option shuold be available for server operators to select.

Where are bomber squadrons, if their is any left do they even fly on 24/7 servers or even get any recruts, how you gona get players to play anything els then fighter airplanes in this enviroment where they dont have chances solo, and this is how everyone starts, flying solo fighter or bomber.

 

Before gunners were so op by fighter pilots acounts, but still every server had them on ace, they didnt lower skill to adress this op gunners problem as it was not so bad( yes they would know where you are all the time even not see you, or they could shoot on masive G but it was not every attack pk), and it give everyone eaqual chances, i bet even then times fighter pilot got pk was so low compared to times he shoot down bombers, but they remenber most that random pk.

Edited May 21, 2022 by CountZero

[SYN_Vander]

3 hours ago, CountZero said:

all popular servers have it at ace for long time now, it dont help mutch to change skill like it did before.

 

Where do you get that information from?

 

I checked recent Combat Box missions, there the AI level is ' Normal'  and on Flugpark the Two-seaters have AI level 'High' .

Edited May 21, 2022 by SYN_Vander

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Thing is, which is proven by track file and supported by screen shots. 

AI gunner do not react to enemy fighter camping on six, nore did he call out to warn before he begane to return fire, way too late. 

The stats which is referred to, is from second attack, and not first as shown above. 

Secondly, the ai gunner do not even try to hit. 

 

Devs, fix that please! 

[Barnacles]

14 hours ago, SYN_Vander said:

Do you know what skill level the AI have? If it’s not the highest, you can ask the server owners to change the AI level.

As far as I'm aware, the AI level for the player controlled planes is not able to be changed/set at all when you design a map. 

[CountZero]

11 hours ago, SYN_Vander said:

 

Where do you get that information from?

 

I checked recent Combat Box missions, there the AI level is ' Normal'  and on Flugpark the Two-seaters have AI level 'High' .

same as you check missions i played on, didnt know combat box is normal was highest level before, dont play ww1

[SYN_Vander]

5 minutes ago, Barnacles said:

As far as I'm aware, the AI level for the player controlled planes is not able to be changed/set at all when you design a map. 

 

Not true. In the airfield settings you can set AI level for spawned planes.

 

I know of the AI gunner behaviour. It can drive you mad as a pilot; specifically in Flying Circus you can see clearly that the guy is firing sideways or holding fire at the exact moment the enemy is square in his sights. I just would like to assess if it depends on AI setting. It should because then mission designers can determine how good or bad the AI will be without bothering devs.

Edited May 22, 2022 by SYN_Vander

[CountZero]

Just now, Barnacles said:

As far as I'm aware, the AI level for the player controlled planes is not able to be changed/set at all when you design a map. 

its posible in base options when selecting airplanes, skill selected there is for gunners also

[Barnacles]

5 minutes ago, CountZero said:

its posible in base options when selecting airplanes, skill selected there is for gunners also

Thank you. Everyday is a school day!

[CountZero]

7 minutes ago, SYN_Vander said:

 

Not true. In the airfield settings you can set AI level for spawned planes.

 

I know of the AI gunner behaviour. It can drive you mad as a pilot; specifically in Flying Circus you can see clearly that the guy is firing sideways or holding fire at the exact moment the enemy is square in his sights. I just would like to assess if it depends on AI setting. It should because then mission designers can determine how good or bad the AI will be without bothering devs.

video from OP is from finish server, i dont think this problem is AI behavior in SP vs AI behavior in MP because i could see AI gunners looking like they are intentionaly missing in QM in SP when i practice attacks on bombers, and if bombers try to turn then sometimes they dont even shoot.

[SYN_Vander]

2 minutes ago, CountZero said:

video from OP is from finish server, i dont think this problem is AI behavior in SP vs AI behavior in MP because i could see AI gunners looking like they are intentionaly missing in QM in SP when i practice attacks on bombers, and if bombers try to turn then sometimes they dont even shoot.

 

Well I think the fact that gunner do not shoot or (badly) when the player is turning is a feature. I remember it being added and it's not unrealistic because in real life it will be very hard to aim if your aircraft yanks around in the sky. Even a small stick movement will have a large effect. 

Still, it would be nice if we can control that ability as well using AI level.

[CountZero]

15 minutes ago, dogefighter said:

Just a reminder what the gunners were like for years before the recent fix:

 

 

 

?

More hilarious examples in this thread:

Of course there's now an outcry from bomber mains who got used to having those absolutely ridiculous gunners. You just need to understand that they weren't realistic at all and what we have now is infinitely better. Again, I'm not against devs fine tuning the gunners further. Maybe they'll take another look in about 8 years? Only fair since we had to deal with BS gunners for that long. 

 

Anyway I'm done here. May you bomber mains keep getting shot down!  

I doubt its gona get changed ever, it will stay as its now, game is fighters centric.

 

[Barnacles]

14 minutes ago, CountZero said:

I doubt its gona get changed ever, it will stay as its now, game is fighters centric.

 

The game has 40+, fighters 13 bombers and 1 transport aircraft. If course it's going to be fighter centric. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Barnacles

[=RS=EnvyC]

Idk, sounds like a realistic engagement.

[[Warship]MidnightLightnin]

+1 for the original post. I don't expect a tail gunner to shoot down every plane on my 6 but players can currently sit right on my 6 and the tail gunners just don't hit them - needs tweaking up a bit.