Engine limitation Nieuport 28

[Gunfreak]

I've been googeling 15 minutes, no where so I see info on the engine limitations. 

[BMA_Hellbender]

Oh boy.

[Cynic_Al]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

I've been googeling 15 minutes, no where so I see info on the engine limitations. 

 

It's not clear what you mean by 'limitations'.  If you mean RPM limit, it could be that there is no figure because no pilot survived finding-out.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

In it's present form, the N28 is a waste of pixles for online play.   Perhaps it has some use in offline single player?

Edited May 13, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[Gunfreak]

7 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

It's not clear what you mean by 'limitations'.  If you mean RPM limit, it could be that there is no figure because no pilot survived finding-out.

Yes RPM limit or other limits.

1 minute ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

In it's present form, the N28 is a waste of pizles for online play.   P

Not online for American PWCG campaign. 

I did a mission and appears you can have full throttle in the climb and level flight. 

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

If RPMs are an issue, you'll see it in a dive.   Just before the wings fall off...?

 

But, to be fair, I've only flown it couple of times.  Pretty unimpressive performance imo.  Turns like a whale, and not particularly fast.

Edited May 13, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[SeaW0lf]

30 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Yes RPM limit or other limits.

Not online for American PWCG campaign. 

I did a mission and appears you can have full throttle in the climb and level flight. 

 

As Mitchell pointed out, do some dive tests and see when the engine will seize. It will vary from plane to plane. 

 

You can find some engine manuals on the internet, but they will only state the max rpm advisable. They won't state the rpm when the engine will seize, I think because it would vary due to conditions. But you can find that out in-game. For the Sopwith Camel for example I think the limit is 1600rpm in dives. After that, it will blow up or take damage.  

 

Regarding full throttle, all planes in the roster can be flown full throttle without any issues for the duration of the mission. This is a code limitation, since the game is from the late 2000s (flight model is from Rise of Flight). It could be fun to manage rpm, but that's not the end of the world. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by SeaW0lf

[Gunfreak]

12 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

As Mitchell pointed out, do some dive tests and see when the engine will seize. It will vary from plane to plane. 

 

You can find some engine manuals on the internet, but they will only state the max rpm advisable. They won't state the rpm when the engine will seize, I think because it would vary due to conditions. But you can find that out in-game. For the Sopwith Camel for example I think the limit is 1600rpm in dives. After that, it will blow up or take damage.  

 

Regarding full throttle, all planes in the roster can be flown full throttle without any issues for the duration of the mission. This is a code limitation, since the game is from the late 2000s (flight model is from Rise of Flight). It could be fun to manage rpm, but that's not the end of the world. 

 

If i use full thorttle in the Camel, (1600 level flight) i break it. At 1500 i can run it all day long. At least that's what i experienced when i fly the scripted campaign. 

[SeaW0lf]

8 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

 

If i use full thorttle in the Camel, (1600 level flight) i break it.

 

You can't reach 1600 on the Camel in level flight. I think it gets to 1440 in level flight. 

[Gunfreak]

20 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

You can't reach 1600 on the Camel in level flight. I think it gets to 1440 in level flight. 

Will have to test. 

So the only ever engine thing you must worry about in FC is not over reving the engine in a dive and use the blip on those planes that have it?

[SeaW0lf]

26 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Will have to test. 

So the only ever engine thing you must worry about in FC is not over reving the engine in a dive and use the blip on those planes that have it?

 

Pretty much it. Just manage to don't over-rev in dives. Whatever else is just full steam ahead. Some planes will require radiator management to don't overcool. With rotaries, you have to manage rpm in dogfights, or else your engine will seize in some pretty shallow vertical moves. The rpm goes up pretty fast. It happens in in-line engines as well, but I think it is not that quick.

 

Now I think some engines overcool in dives if you throttle back too much, so I'm not sure what will happen if you don't warm up the engine back. In this regard (overcooling), if you are descending to land for example, better to keep the throttle not that low* and manage rpm.

 

Also, someone here was mentioning that if you bring mixture up to 100%, it is very difficult to over-rev in dives, even in deep dives. So if you need to shed quickly a couple thousand feet or so you can set mixture to 100% and don't worry about rpm. The engine will choke a bit, but it gets running again as soon as you bring the mixture to an optimal position.

Edited May 13, 2022 by SeaW0lf

[=IRFC=Gascan]

According to my notes, the Nieuport 28 has an engine redline of 1500 rpm. If you don't exceed that number, the engine should be fine. If the engine is overcooled, the max RPM will be lower, which makes it easier to damage the engine. Seawolf mentioned running the engine at 100% mixture in a dive to prevent overrevving, and it works in the Camel (haven't tested other planes), but may overcool the engine. Run it a bit lean and be careful with the RPMs when you come out of the dive until the engine warms up a bit again (not easy during a dogfight, but otherwise your engine is kaput).

There is a set of pilots notes that you can download. They replace the cockpit photograph with useful data like max RPM, engine controls, max dive speed, cornering speed, and things like that. Although the original creator is no longer updating it, you can find the newer FC2 planes deeper in the thread if you look. Charlo-VR has been doing some good work releasing new set of notes as the new planes come out.

 

[Cynic_Al]

5 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

You can find some engine manuals on the internet, but they will only state the max rpm advisable. They won't state the rpm when the engine will seize,

 

In the event of over-revving, in the real world a seizure is a far less likely likely outcome than perhaps a valve gear failure.  On a rotary it was not unknown for a cylinder to divorce itself from the crankcase, perhaps aided by the associated con rod letting-go.

[SeaW0lf]

4 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

In the event of over-revving, in the real world a seizure is a far less likely likely outcome than perhaps a valve gear failure.  On a rotary it was not unknown for a cylinder to divorce itself from the crankcase, perhaps aided by the associated con rod letting-go.

 

Yup, I was thinking about in-game (seizing) and talking reality. The info got mixed up, but Chill said that about cylinders, perhaps elongating or failing. I don't recall for sure if the engine would stop or not.

[Cynic_Al]

On 5/14/2022 at 6:16 AM, SeaW0lf said:

Chill said that about cylinders, perhaps elongating or failing. I don't recall for sure if the engine would stop or not.

 

On a rotary, any breach in the seal between a cylinder and crankcase, would prevent fuel mixture induction.  Were a cylinder to detach, it would cause substantial damage and vibration.

[Chill31]

On 5/14/2022 at 12:16 AM, SeaW0lf said:

 

Yup, I was thinking about in-game (seizing) and talking reality. The info got mixed up, but Chill said that about cylinders, perhaps elongating or failing. I don't recall for sure if the engine would stop or not.

Yes, the metal will stretch before it fails. In a small over rev, you would lose some power due to improper valvle timing.  In a large over rev, you could lose an entire cylinder. 

 

In Rhone engines, the pushrod will be the first thing to fail, and that would cause significant cowl damage and engine failure in about 5-10 minutes. On others (Clerget, Gnome), it will likely suffer valve timing issues shorlty before losing an entire cylinder. 

[Todt_Von_Oben]

6 hours ago, Chill31 said:

Yes, the metal will stretch before it fails. In a small over rev, you would lose some power due to improper valvle timing.  In a large over rev, you could lose an entire cylinder. 

 

In Rhone engines, the pushrod will be the first thing to fail, and that would cause significant cowl damage and engine failure in about 5-10 minutes. On others (Clerget, Gnome), it will likely suffer valve timing issues shorlty before losing an entire cylinder. 

 

Chris, 

 

I have a question concerning the mixture settings used for your rotary engine.

 

In all the recips I've flown (none rotary) full rich mixture is used for takeoff; the only exception was taking off at high density altitude airports like Lake Tahoe on a hot day. 

 

In ROF and FC, I used that procedure with great success.  I'd take off at full rich, get level at full power, lean for highest RPM, and then enrichen a little to keep her on the cooler side.

 

Then, I saw a tutorial which said to lean for highest idle RPM and then go.  I've tried that but really don't see any difference in how fast or efficiently I'm getting airborne. 

 

Alternatively, I've just been setting the mixture to the percentage I've come to know is optimum for that engine, taking off and not having to touch it again in flight.  That seems to work as well as anything else but it's all cyberware and I'm wondering what it's like with the real thing.

 

What is your takeoff mixture setting at sea-level or thereabouts; i.e., under conditions that are not high DA?

 

In your triplane, do you lean for a specific idle RPM or use full-rich mix on takeoff?

 

Thanks.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Todt_Von_Oben

[Chill31]

On 5/15/2022 at 4:34 PM, Todt_Von_Oben said:

 

Chris, 

 

I have a question concerning the mixture settings used for your rotary engine.

 

In all the recips I've flown (none rotary) full rich mixture is used for takeoff; the only exception was taking off at high density altitude airports like Lake Tahoe on a hot day. 

 

In ROF and FC, I used that procedure with great success.  I'd take off at full rich, get level at full power, lean for highest RPM, and then enrichen a little to keep her on the cooler side.

 

Then, I saw a tutorial which said to lean for highest idle RPM and then go.  I've tried that but really don't see any difference in how fast or efficiently I'm getting airborne. 

 

Alternatively, I've just been setting the mixture to the percentage I've come to know is optimum for that engine, taking off and not having to touch it again in flight.  That seems to work as well as anything else but it's all cyberware and I'm wondering what it's like with the real thing.

 

What is your takeoff mixture setting at sea-level or thereabouts; i.e., under conditions that are not high DA?

 

In your triplane, do you lean for a specific idle RPM or use full-rich mix on takeoff?

 

Thanks.

It leaned for max rpm at takeoff power.  A lot of guys will run up in the chocks and lean for max rpm before pulling the chocks.  

 

I usually set it about where I know it likes to be, and adjust it slightly on climbout,  but full rich causes me to lose rpm on the 120 Rhone.  On the 80, it didn't seem to make much difference. 

 

On pressurized fuel systems (camel), they tend to richen upas the propeller driven air pump accelerates and increases fuel pressure.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

8 hours ago, Chill31 said:

It leaned for max rpm at takeoff power.  A lot of guys will run up in the chocks and lean for max rpm before pulling the chocks.  

 

I usually set it about where I know it likes to be, and adjust it slightly on climbout,  but full rich causes me to lose rpm on the 120 Rhone.  On the 80, it didn't seem to make much difference. 

 

On pressurized fuel systems (camel), they tend to richen upas the propeller driven air pump accelerates and increases fuel pressure.

 

Thank you, Chris. 

 

When I start FC with Normal Realism, the mixture automatically goes 100% and then leans itself in flight.  With customizable Realism, I have manual mixture control.  I was wondering what real-life rotary pilots were doing and if it made much difference taking off in FC.  IIUC, your experience and procedures match how the sim works.   Good to know. 

 

S!   

[HagarTheHorrible]

38 minutes ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

 

Thank you, Chris. 

 

When I start FC with Normal Realism, the mixture automatically goes 100% and then leans itself in flight.  With customizable Realism, I have manual mixture control.  I was wondering what real-life rotary pilots were doing and if it made much difference taking off in FC.  IIUC, your experience and procedures match how the sim works.   Good to know. 

 

S!   

As far as I can tell, RoF/FC doesn’t simulate rotary engines, ‘just’ engines, and as such they aren’t any different to the inline engines.  Obviously, the rotary engine used in the N28 was different, in as much as it allowed a certain ‘course’ power adjustment, without the need to constantly fiddle with the mixture and block tube settings. It might have been considered useful, but it was far from a perfect solution, to say the least.

 

Without looking ( I can’t really be bothered) I imagine the N28 engine controls are the same as ‘other rotary’s’, block tube and fuel flow adjustment lever (Tampere ?), but with an additional ‘third’ control to the spark plugs.  The N28 is such a dud that I haven’t given it so much as a second glance since it first appeared in RoF.

Edited May 17, 2022 by HagarTheHorrible

[Cynic_Al]

33 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Without looking ( I can’t really be bothered) I imagine the N28 engine controls are the same as ‘other rotary’s’, block tube and fuel flow adjustment lever (Tampere ?), but with an additional ‘third’ control to the spark plugs.

 

No blocktube as this type of engine can't be easily throttled, hence the ignition sequencer.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Ok, so I did look it up, my interest was piqued.

 

http://www.kozaero.com/look-at-the-gnocircme-9n-rotary-engine.html

[Chill31]

4 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

No blocktube as this type of engine can't be easily throttled, hence the ignition sequencer.

Yep! Spot on.  In fact Classic Aero Machining Service in NZ tried to fit a block tube carb to the new made 100 Gnome...it didnt work!

[Cynic_Al]

On 5/18/2022 at 3:16 AM, Chill31 said:

In fact Classic Aero Machining Service in NZ tried to fit a block tube carb to the new made 100 Gnome...it didnt work!

 

Strange it never occurred to them that a century earlier someone else must have tried the same thing.