He 162 "Volksjäger" in IL2 Great Battles?

[Specter1-1FabianZinser]

I have been wondering for quite some time now why the developers won't edit other jet powered aircraft from world war 2. Like the Arado 234 or the He126. Please tell me the reason if anybody knows.

[Avimimus]

On 5/8/2022 at 5:49 AM, FabianZinser said:

I have been wondering for quite some time now why the developers won't edit other jet powered aircraft from world war 2. Like the Arado 234 or the He126. Please tell me the reason if anybody knows.

 

I'm nor sure what you mean.

 

The Arado Ar-234 is coming to Great Battles this summer (check the dev diaries for screenshots).

 

The He-162 was only used briefly in 1945. There is a chance that we might get it as part of a 1945 'East' module - but the next module hasn't been announced. There is no indication from the devs whether they would consider the He-162 or not (however, it is a well documented aircraft and reasonably popular - so it would seem to be at least possible in the future).

 

[PatrickAWlson]

What is the case for the He126?  I think it's a great looking plane but it was pretty much junk and almost never flown in combat.  I think the Komet saw more action than the Volksjager.  I get that pickings are getting slim on the German side since we got 10 German planes with Normandy and Bodenplatte, but planes that almost never saw action really don't do much for me.  

[Avimimus]

24 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

What is the case for the He126?  I think it's a great looking plane but it was pretty much junk and almost never flown in combat.  I think the Komet saw more action than the Volksjager.  I get that pickings are getting slim on the German side since we got 10 German planes with Normandy and Bodenplatte, but planes that almost never saw action really don't do much for me.  

 

Yes, the Me-163 did see more combat - but it was at altitude against strategic bomber streams. The few He-162 combat encounters were at medium or low altitude with tactical aviation (which is consistent with what is modelled in existing modules).

 

The He-162 was  mass produced and would have seen  extensive combat if (1) The BMW engine had less development issues or (2) German fuel production was disrupted a couple of month later (i.e. a slightly slower Soviet offensive or slightly more hesitation in strategic bombing). So it is quite plausible that hundreds of air-combats could have taken place with an alternative timeline that led to a couple of weeks difference.

 

I do get your point though. A lot of the He-162's appeal comes from the juxtaposition of ambition from an engineering standpoint and desperation - rather than actual combat use. The Hs-126 would is technically more important than the He-162, having seen more production and more widespread service - but might not sell as well - and a lot of us would prefer a Fw-189 or Fi-156 if we went down that route.

 

However, given that we're down to a handful of German fighters (Fw-190A4, Bf-109G1, Fw-190A9, Bf-109G10/AS) for future modules, it is appealing. I think the He-162 is as justifiable as the Ta-152H, while being more useful for low altitude combat. The Do-335 is probably in third place. So, I think it'd be the most attractive collector plane out of the three.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Avimimus

[Asgar]

5 hours ago, Avimimus said:

The Do-335 is probably in third place. So, I think it'd be the most attractive collector plane out of the three.

I'm not sure i want it, too be honest. I love the plane. I think it's a great design and could've been great, but it was just too late, and I don't see the Great Battles Series going the 1946 route just yet. But somewhere in the future if we got that route. Count me in ? 
[edited]

Edited May 9, 2022 by SYN_Haashashin
Language

[Jaws2002]

On 5/8/2022 at 5:49 AM, FabianZinser said:

I have been wondering for quite some time now why the developers won't edit other jet powered aircraft from world war 2. Like the Arado 234 or the He126. Please tell me the reason if anybody knows.

 

Hello Fabian and welcome to Il-2. 

 

As already mentioned, the Arado 234 is in late stages of development and it should be coming to Great battles this summer. The He 162 was a serial produced plane, but saw very limited combat. There's talk about a late war eastern front addon, but I we don't know yet what planes will be modelled.

 This team models planes at a pretty high fidelity and they don't model planes they can't find good reliable documentation. I don't know how much info is available for this aircraft. 

  To model a new plane the team has to work on it for many months, so they select their planes very carefully.

 It could come to the game at some point, but it's not very likely.

 

 Saying all that, the plane is interesting and has plenty followers. I'd buy it on day one, if it's released. I flew it quite a bit in the old, Il-2 1946 game. 

  TA-152, Do-335 and Me-163, are more attractive and interesting for me, but I'd buy them all....I'm an ill-2 junkie.?

 

 

 

 

[Asgar]

26 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

There's talk about a late war eastern front addon, but I we don't know yet what planes will be modelled.

We should mention that talk is only happening in the community, there has been NO word from the devs about the next installment yet  Just so there are no wrong hopes. We could just as well get a mediterean theater, right devs? right?  

 

  

26 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

.I'm an ill-2 junkie.

You're not the only one ? 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Asgar

[Winkysmith]

4 hours ago, Asgar said:

We could just as well get a mediterean theater, right devs? right?  

Not to hijack this thread, but out of all the places IL-2 could go next this is the one I’m hoping for.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Winkysmith

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

 This team models planes at a pretty high fidelity and they don't model planes they can't find good reliable documentation. I don't know how much info is available for this aircraft.

 

We've got one in Ottawa. I could probably try to help get access - they let me get up close to it to take reference photos once. If the curator supports it I'm sure lots of references could be obtained.

 

We also have the only intact AEG G.IV (and the ruins of the Junkers J.II - although that'd only be useful for structural information I think)

Edited May 9, 2022 by Avimimus

[DeBo238th]

Since no one else has said it yet, how about the Horton IX ( Gotha 229) flying wing?  Back in my SWOTL days I had a lot of fun with it…

[Avimimus]

29 minutes ago, DeBo238th said:

Since no one else has said it yet, how about the Horton IX ( Gotha 229) flying wing?  Back in my SWOTL days I had a lot of fun with it…

 

It was the Go-229 art on the SWOTL box at a yard sale that got me into flight simulators in the first place! So I couldn't really refuse, could I?

 

That said - compared to the He-162, Do-335, or Ta-152 - it was a lot further from production. If it did enter production it might've been something more like the Gotha derivative (a single-seat P.60) and would have undoubtedly had some development issues. In some ways I think the P.1112, Ef-128 or BvP 212 are more plausible as seeing mass production - and all of those would've required the war to go on another year (so are only possible in radically different scenarios where the U.S. limits lend-lease etc. where it takes an extra year or so for the Commonwealth and the Soviets to overwhelm the Reich). Deep alternative history.

 

In contrast the He-162 would've seen a lot of combat if there had been even small delays in strategic bombing or slightly better luck in the BMW 003 program's development schedule... small changes involving just a few weeks of timeline changes, resulting from one or two decision makers.

[ShamrockOneFive]

On 5/8/2022 at 5:49 AM, FabianZinser said:

I have been wondering for quite some time now why the developers won't edit other jet powered aircraft from world war 2. Like the Arado 234 or the He126. Please tell me the reason if anybody knows.

Behold.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by ShamrockOneFive

[BlitzPig_EL]

Please, no paper napkin dream planes.  Just no.  There are so many much more important aircraft that actually played a part in the war that need to be modeled. Besides, the only time the Horten flew is when Allied bombers blew it to bits.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Honestly, I'd rather see a flyable Fw 189.

[Asgar]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Please, no paper napkin dream planes.  Just no.  There are so many much more important aircraft that actually played a part in the war that need to be modeled. Besides, the only time the Horten flew is when Allied bombers blew it to bits.

That is completely wrong. The glider prototype V-1 and the powered prototype V-2 did fly. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

And it's one flight I believe ended with a dead pilot.  If I'm wrong on this then I will happily stand corrected.

 

In any case we really need to flesh out the planes that actually saw service with the Luftwaffe as they are far more important than the last ditch wonderwaffe that had no effect on the outcome.  FW 189, Do 217, Hs 123, Storch, fill in the final missing 109s, plus the Mc 200 which should have been in the sim from day one.  If we do get another jet it should be the Gloster Meteor.

 

Lets leave the "what if" planes alone.  There is no need for them.  There are far more important areas of the Second World War that have yet to be even touched by this series.

[Weegie]

He 219?

[Asgar]

11 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

And it's one flight I believe ended with a dead pilot.  If I'm wrong on this then I will happily stand corrected.

 

In any case we really need to flesh out the planes that actually saw service with the Luftwaffe as they are far more important than the last ditch wonderwaffe that had no effect on the outcome.  FW 189, Do 217, Hs 123, Storch, fill in the final missing 109s, plus the Mc 200 which should have been in the sim from day one.  If we do get another jet it should be the Gloster Meteor.

 

Lets leave the "what if" planes alone.  There is no need for them.  There are far more important areas of the Second World War that have yet to be even touched by this series.

well, if you read my post further above you know i agree fully when it comes to this. There is no need to go full 1946 with GBS just yet. I'd like some Spaghetti action in the mediterrean

[Bremspropeller]

I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it doesn't even Natter...

[CountZero]

no chance you gona see it in this game, no map to use it on and even if they make Berlin map you wont have Berlin on it as its to big for this game, so you cant have historical bases for it, so you cant have SP campaigns for it, so no point in doing it.

Even ar234 what is not type used in bon map and have no bases it operated in bon map area because they cant do paris as its to big for game, have historical bases on bobp map so it can be used, salamander cant so 0% chances.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

GIB Natter

 

[[CPT]Crunch]

I want to be the first kid on my block to kill one each of every verifiable vonner veapon type.

[Avimimus]

12 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Please, no paper napkin dream planes.  Just no.  There are so many much more important aircraft that actually played a part in the war that need to be modeled. Besides, the only time the Horten flew is when Allied bombers blew it to bits.

 

Well, technically, there were two Ho IX test flights. It crashed. The rest were then blown to bits.

 

12 hours ago, =EXPEND=CG_Justin said:

Honestly, I'd rather see a flyable Fw 189.

 

Me too! But I'd take a He-162 if it helped draw in enough new people to justify the Fw-189. Honestly, I think it is best if planesets have something flashy to appeal to the 13 year olds (in all of us) and something unusual to appeal to those of us who've been flying flight sims for 25 years and think 'we've seen it all already'. So it is definitely possible they could do both.

 

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

In any case we really need to flesh out the planes that actually saw service with the Luftwaffe as they are far more important than the last ditch wonderwaffe that had no effect on the outcome.  FW 189, Do 217, Hs 123, Storch, fill in the final missing 109s, plus the Mc 200 which should have been in the sim from day one.  If we do get another jet it should be the Gloster Meteor.

 

I'm not sure the argument for the Meteor is that much stronger to be honest - it saw very little combat and had similar teething issues.

 

Lots of appealing options:

 

I-153 would be great for Moscow and, particularly, for Kuban.

 

Fw-189 would be neat for Moscow and Stalingrad (it was largely withdrawn by Kuban I gather).

 

Pe-3 would fit Moscow and Stalingrad (and possibly Kuban).

 

Fi-156 would fit any module (but benefit the most from artillery spotting gameplay being included). 

 

Fw-190A4 is actually interesting (closer to the A-3 in some respects due to a shorter nose, but with the bomb loads of the A5).

 

We could do with more LaGG-3 and P-39 variants.

 

Ju-87D-5 would fit the end of the Kursk scenario. Ju-87B/R would be useful for Moscow (and maybe some other scenarios - weren't some long range R variants used over the Black Sea)?

 

Ju-188 and Do-217E would have some use in late war scenarios. Il-4 would be in various scenarios but flying from airfields that are off-map.

 

Land based Avengers were used in Normandy for coastal patrols.

 

There are several aircraft that would be useful on the Normandy map for 1942 scenarios (e.g. Mustang I, Boston III, Spit IXc).

 

That is just for existing maps... not for a '45 East scenario (e.g. Tu-2) and it is also leaving out some numerically important aircraft that are less likely to be modelled because they were used mainly for liaison or night bombing (e.g. Hs-126, Polikarpov R-5);

[PatrickAWlson]

Found this link on He162 combat operations.  It flew a little more than I thought.  It was assigned to one unit and it did fly combat operations the last month of the war.  it seems to have shot down at least one and probably a few enemy aircraft.  It unequivocally killed more German pilots than Allied pilots.

 

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.military/c/n4tD0ZrbGqo

[EAF19_Marsh]

Fun, but pretty pointless. Pun intended.

Edited May 10, 2022 by EAF19_Marsh

[Rodwonder]

I love the buzzkills that say no to every little toy we would love to have. If it were up to them the game should have been canceled years ago... ?

[EAF19_Marsh]

8 minutes ago, Rodwonder said:

I love the buzzkills that say no to every little toy we would love to have. If it were up to them the game should have been canceled years ago... ?

Difference between ‘toy’ and key aircraft. So, yes, reasoned arguments given opportunity cost of ‘toys’.

 

Not difficult to understand.

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

Well, technically, there were two Ho IX test flights. It crashed. The rest were then blown to bits.

 

 

Me too! But I'd take a He-162 if it helped draw in enough new people to justify the Fw-189. Honestly, I think it is best if planesets have something flashy to appeal to the 13 year olds (in all of us) and something unusual to appeal to those of us who've been flying flight sims for 25 years and think 'we've seen it all already'. So it is definitely possible they could do both.

 

 

I'm not sure the argument for the Meteor is that much stronger to be honest - it saw very little combat and had similar teething issues.

 

Lots of appealing options:

 

I-153 would be great for Moscow and, particularly, for Kuban.

 

Fw-189 would be neat for Moscow and Stalingrad (it was largely withdrawn by Kuban I gather).

 

Pe-3 would fit Moscow and Stalingrad (and possibly Kuban).

 

Fi-156 would fit any module (but benefit the most from artillery spotting gameplay being included). 

 

Fw-190A4 is actually interesting (closer to the A-3 in some respects due to a shorter nose, but with the bomb loads of the A5).

 

We could do with more LaGG-3 and P-39 variants.

 

Ju-87D-5 would fit the end of the Kursk scenario. Ju-87B/R would be useful for Moscow (and maybe some other scenarios - weren't some long range R variants used over the Black Sea)?

 

Ju-188 and Do-217E would have some use in late war scenarios. Il-4 would be in various scenarios but flying from airfields that are off-map.

 

Land based Avengers were used in Normandy for coastal patrols.

 

There are several aircraft that would be useful on the Normandy map for 1942 scenarios (e.g. Mustang I, Boston III, Spit IXc).

 

That is just for existing maps... not for a '45 East scenario (e.g. Tu-2) and it is also leaving out some numerically important aircraft that are less likely to be modelled because they were used mainly for liaison or night bombing (e.g. Hs-126, Polikarpov R-5);

 Yeah, I'd rather see these airplanes plus the IL-4.

 

He-162, Do 335, and Me-163 would probably be added as Collectors and mainly part of the 'what if these planes entered service sooner' scenario.

 

Planes that were in prototype stage by the time the war ended and are part of 'what if the war lasted longer' like the Ta-183, Go/Ho 229, Hs 132, etc. would come absolutely last and would also be Collectors.

[PatrickAWlson]

1 minute ago, Rodwonder said:

I love the buzzkills that say no to every little toy we would love to have. If it were up to them the game should have been canceled years ago... ?

 

Bull

 

The product, to date, has done a nice job of mixing the most well known aircraft with lesser known ones.  Every single plane is a development cycle of months.  You don't just decide to make a plane and then churn it out a week later.  Just the decision to start has to be thought through.  So yes, since  most of us understand this, we debate whether we would like to see a plane built or not built.

[Rodwonder]

19 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Bull

 

The product, to date, has done a nice job of mixing the most well known aircraft with lesser known ones.  Every single plane is a development cycle of months.  You don't just decide to make a plane and then churn it out a week later.  Just the decision to start has to be thought through.  So yes, since  most of us understand this, we debate whether we would like to see a plane built or not built.

 

True and I agree... But I do see the same people shoot down 'Pun intended' almost every idea that come up in posts like these. It's all good I'm just a more variety type person who believes if you can do it, do it... Waiting on Flying Circus 2 anyway.   

Edited May 10, 2022 by Rodwonder

[EAF19_Marsh]

Alas, poor Pun.

I knew him, Horatio.

[Rjel]

4 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Alas, poor Pun.

I knew him, Horatio.

You shouldn’t be your own Hornblower.  

[AEthelraedUnraed]

3 hours ago, Rodwonder said:

True and I agree... But I do see the same people shoot down 'Pun intended' almost every idea that come up in posts like these. It's all good I'm just a more variety type person who believes if you can do it, do it...

The problem is, they can't "just" do it.

 

With limited budget and/or time, if they decide to build a certain plane, it effectively means they can't build another. I would sure like a He-162 or Hs-126, whichever the OP means. But I think that there are many other Axis planes I'd like to see first. Hence, I'm against a He-162/Hs-126.

Edited May 10, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed

[=621=Samikatz]

12 hours ago, Asgar said:

That is completely wrong. The glider prototype V-1 and the powered prototype V-2 did fly. 

 

Neither had guns or munitions, so an actually armed aircraft would still be fantasy

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I'm not sure the argument for the Meteor is that much stronger to be honest - it saw very little combat and had similar teething issues.

 

It's a heck of a lot stronger than the argument for the He 162 - it was shooting down buzz bombs over England in the summer of 1944 and then was flying armed recon missions over the Rhineland in the spring of 1945. As much as I love the 162 (since I built the cockpit for it for IL2 1946), the Meteor is far more relevant to the air war. 

[Asgar]

2 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

It's a heck of a lot stronger than the argument for the He 162 - it was shooting down buzz bombs over England in the summer of 1944 and then was flying armed recon missions over the Rhineland in the spring of 1945. As much as I love the 162 (since I built the cockpit for it for IL2 1946), the Meteor is far more relevant to the air war. 

If we're talking strong cases... the He 177 bombed Britain and the Soviet Union. We can use it pretty much everywhere. I rest my case   

[PatrickAWlson]

1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

 

It's a heck of a lot stronger than the argument for the He 162 - it was shooting down buzz bombs over England in the summer of 1944 and then was flying armed recon missions over the Rhineland in the spring of 1945. As much as I love the 162 (since I built the cockpit for it for IL2 1946), the Meteor is far more relevant to the air war. 

 

Per my post above, it seems the 162 shot down at least one plane  .  I'm going to argue that they are in more or less the same camp.  If these planes could be churned out like sausage I would be all for all of them.  I did a bunch of planes for the old Red Baron 3D.  Each plane took about a week.  Standards have gotten a little higher since then.

 

If we are talking collector planes then I would like to see the Ju87B, Do 217, American mediums as flyable, later war Russian kit, early war Russian stuff like the I-153, Russian mediums, etc.  There are a lot of planes that did a lot of flying that we don't have.  It's not that I am actively against any plane, but limited resources means that you have to choose.

15 minutes ago, Asgar said:

If we're talking strong cases... the He 177 bombed Britain and the Soviet Union. We can use it pretty much everywhere. I rest my case   

 

I don't think the game currently models spontaneous combustion for no apparently good reason.

[Asgar]

11 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I don't think the game currently models spontaneous combustion for no apparently good reason.

Well, that didn’t stop them from making the Hs-129, which had the same issue if not worse… stupid French engines ?

 

 

and with the 177 A-5 most of the technical issues were resolved. At that point the high torque of the two DB610 engines during take off  we’re the biggest issue, but with proper training it was manageable judging by the accounts I’ve seen online ?

Edited May 10, 2022 by Asgar

[Dragon1-1]

Weren't the props on the 177 counterrotating? If so, it shouldn't have had any torque problems whatsoever.

[EAF19_Marsh]

12 hours ago, Rjel said:

You shouldn’t be your own Hornblower.  

i delegate the horn-blowing to others.