Stall and spin if you get to close to another aircrafts tail and prop wash.

[Tiger1Pilot_off]

Hi all. I am a terrible shot so like to get close but any time i fly through another aircrafts prop wash as they manoeuvre I loose control and at best end up in an insipient spin This happens both in BOX and Flying Circus This is very annoying as I fly  both powered and gliders and as an instructor in Australia we transition from low tow to high tow prier to releasing the rope and it is often a nervous trainee will try to rush through the prop wash which is quite dangerous as it can "up-end" the tow aircraft (Give the tow aircraft a big enough wedgy and it will loose elevator authority and stall) so i train students to hold in the prop wash to get use to it. its a bit rough and requires a bit of work in ailerons but is at no time dangerous and the pupil soon looses his concern about flying through the prop wash.  I also fly formation in an Vans RV8 and have passed through prop washes of other aicraft  at speed and there is but a little buffeting all controllable. Yet in il2 BOX if I fly close through another aircrafts prop wash at any speed I get upended and spin and stall and......... This for what ever reason has been exaggerated especially in flying circus. there is so much drag and the props turn so slowly that I should be able to sit with my prop chewing his tale off as steady as a rock. Is there something I can adjust or has this feature been created by a fan of Top Gun. (When Maverick gets to close to the other f15 jet wash and flames his engine ........ which is a whole other kettle of fish ) ever way, that and taxying ( I have flown a lot of tailwheel on lots of types and even with a howling crosswind i have not had that much trouble. I am getting use to it with the use of breaks but in real life you rev the engine it gives you more rudder authority. and a boot full of rudder straightens you quickly. in this game rudder effect doesn't improve,  you just spin in a circle.  Other than that its a great game. So if someone can help or better still if their is a developer out their who can give me a reason for this or perhaps even fix it...... it would be an even better game........

[jollyjack]

Wonder how much attention to that was put into the game; with FC i like to crawl up close cos the gunfire does not seem so effective otherwise.

Must see what it does closing up to a friendly plane. It seems that wind has influence in this game, f.i. side wind and Spitfire landings/takeoff.

[SCG_motoadve]

1 hour ago, Tiger1Pilot_off said:

Hi all. I am a terrible shot so like to get close but any time i fly through another aircrafts prop wash as they manoeuvre I loose control and at best end up in an insipient spin This happens both in BOX and Flying Circus This is very annoying as I fly  both powered and gliders and as an instructor in Australia we transition from low tow to high tow prier to releasing the rope and it is often a nervous trainee will try to rush through the prop wash which is quite dangerous as it can "up-end" the tow aircraft (Give the tow aircraft a big enough wedgy and it will loose elevator authority and stall) so i train students to hold in the prop wash to get use to it. its a bit rough and requires a bit of work in ailerons but is at no time dangerous and the pupil soon looses his concern about flying through the prop wash.  I also fly formation in an Vans RV8 and have passed through prop washes of other aicraft  at speed and there is but a little buffeting all controllable. Yet in il2 BOX if I fly close through another aircrafts prop wash at any speed I get upended and spin and stall and......... This for what ever reason has been exaggerated especially in flying circus. there is so much drag and the props turn so slowly that I should be able to sit with my prop chewing his tale off as steady as a rock. Is there something I can adjust or has this feature been created by a fan of Top Gun. (When Maverick gets to close to the other f15 jet wash and flames his engine ........ which is a whole other kettle of fish ) ever way, that and taxying ( I have flown a lot of tailwheel on lots of types and even with a howling crosswind i have not had that much trouble. I am getting use to it with the use of breaks but in real life you rev the engine it gives you more rudder authority. and a boot full of rudder straightens you quickly. in this game rudder effect doesn't improve,  you just spin in a circle.  Other than that its a great game. So if someone can help or better still if their is a developer out their who can give me a reason for this or perhaps even fix it...... it would be an even better game........

Please can you make a video showing this using WWII planes?

I also fly formation and simulated dogfights in a CJ6 military trainer, and propwash can be nasty sometimes, where it moves you around and the stick does not has much input, but actually never experienced in game.

[Chill31]

The wake from J-3 Cub will roll my Dr.I maybe 40 degrees of bank, but never causes a spin.

[Tiger1Pilot_off]

Sorry I havent followed up. Just recovering from Covid. Will try to put up a vid asap. 

[zan64]

On 5/10/2022 at 1:00 AM, Chill31 said:

The wake from J-3 Cub will roll my Dr.I maybe 40 degrees of bank, but never causes a spin.

sorry if off topic, but have you ever tried stalling yours? kermit weeks (airplane collector) said on youtube he never tried with his as it is tricky enough in normal conditions, and his is recip!  

[Chill31]

5 hours ago, zan64 said:

sorry if off topic, but have you ever tried stalling yours? kermit weeks (airplane collector) said on youtube he never tried with his as it is tricky enough in normal conditions, and his is recip!  

Yes, all the time.  It is so gentle!  In a hard right turn, it just gently drops a wing and if you ease up the back pressure just slightly, it is flying again.  In a left turn, you can see that it sort of falls sideways.

 

In this video, you can see the G loading and the resulting stall

 

[US103_Baer]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:36 PM, Tiger1Pilot_off said:

Sorry I havent followed up. Just recovering from Covid. Will try to put up a vid asap. 

Had trouble recreating your issue. What plane are you flying?

 

I did find a bit of disturbance when powered down and stuck slow right on the tail of a Gotha or DFW, but nothing that half a boot full of rudder couldn't cope with. 

More to the point I can't imagine ever getting into that situation in the first place. Even in a turn fighter you'd want to be attacking with energy advantage. From above and with more speed,  the EA prop wash shouldn't be an issue.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

In ROF propwash was model in sp not in multiplayer if I remember correctly. Should be the same in FC. Read some accounts from ww1 books about that situation happened to pilots during dogfights. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Todt_Von_Oben]

First of all, it's not propwash.  That's a common misconception but the cause is actually wingtip vortices: rotating air currents (like little sideways tornadoes) generated (you guessed it) at the tips of the wings and spiraling in behind that airplane.

 

A pilot is trained to avoid taking off too soon behind other planes (airliners, especially) lest they be caught in the lingering vortices and flipped over on takeoff.  Nevertheless, it's happened a lot and the phenomenon is well documented.  It's the wingtips; not the prop.  It even happens with jets.

 

Secondly, I've been flying MP regularly this week against fighters, mediums, and bombers; and yes, I am getting buffeted by wingtip vortices when close in the six of all of them; just as I would expect to be.

 

But it hasn't caused me to stall or spin; even in the Camel or a Scout with a roof-rifle.  Just a momentary minor instability from which a normal recovery is easy.

 

In real life, I've flown close formation while dogfighting in 85 hp S&R taildraggers; and while hauling jumpers in the Cessna 182, 205, U-206, TU-206, Beech D-18, and DC3.  Yes, I've "hit bumps" in mid-air before but never come close to stalling or spinning.   

 

I suppose one could lose control and/or spin in this sim if he flew into wingtip vortices while traveling at near stall speed in an extreme pitch attitude.  But I haven't experienced that ever in ROF or FC because I'm mindful of (1) airspeed and (2) angle of attack. 

 

That said, it sounds like the OP's problem is pilot error.

 

Based on what I am experiencing, the wingtip vortices do exist and are correctly-modelled in FC.  Well done, Devs.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Todt_Von_Oben

[Chill31]

12 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

In ROF propwash was model in sp not in multiplayer if I remember correctly. Should be the same in FC. Read some accounts from ww1 books about that situation happened to pilots during dogfights. 

I read "king of the air fighters" about Mannock and it talked about guys getting in the wake and still trying to shoot! You really have to wrestle the Dr.I in a wake...shooting would be a ni e challenge. 

[Todt_Von_Oben]

I'll amend my previous statement. 

 

In real life, the problem is wingtip vortices.  In FC, the condition exists as a "burble" of disturbed air aft of the fuselage.  (And yes, you could think of it as the aircraft's "wake.")  Could prop wash also be a factor in that burble?  Sure.

 

I flew several sorties last night: a Camel in formation with an 0400.  I could be in the slot behind either wingtip and it was smooth sailing.  When I traversed behind the empennage, it got a bit bumpy but nothing hard to handle.

 

I flew all three slots in level flight, stayed in position through his surprisingly abrupt and steep maneuvers, and did a tandem landing.  No instability as long as I wasn't directly in the six.

 

So, I'm not seeing wingtip vortices in this sim; not even when I fly through the red white and blue smoke marking the landing fields on Zoo's maps.

 

What I am seeing is rough air directly behind the fuselage; but I would expect at least something like that and it's not hard to cope with in any event. 

 

A small variance but worth noting for accuracy's sake.

 

Prosit! 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Todt_Von_Oben
Punctuation, extrapolation, and clarification.