AI gunnery mod

[Stonehouse]

Pretty obviously this mod will need an update after the 5.106 patch - at the least I need to add the new aircraft. Not sure at this point what else needs to be done.

[Stonehouse]

So changes:

• New aircraft
• Remove Ju88A4 fwd and btm bot definition as 5.106 fixed the missing 1944 version of the gunner bot
• Despawn delay mod reorganised so that flyable npc crew now all in the AI Gunnery mod rather than some in one mod and some in the other. 

Other than a quick health check I haven't had time for extensive testing sorry. However, I figured you'd rather have the update without obvious errors and if something crops up it can be forward fixed.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Will need to be updated to include new aircraft. 

[Stonehouse]

6 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Will need to be updated to include new aircraft. 

 

Updated the main AI Gunnery mod to include the new aircraft. Didn't have time today for the despawn delay but the current version will work fine other than for the crew of the new aircraft. 

[Stonehouse]

On 10/26/2023 at 6:39 PM, Stonehouse said:

Didn't have time today for the despawn delay but the current version will work fine other than for the crew of the new aircraft. 

As best I can tell the devs have recycled an existing bot for the new aircraft and therefore no changes are required for the AI Gunnery Pilot despawn delay mod post 5.107.

 

Which is good news for me since I am time poor at the moment ?

[Stonehouse]

Apologies to all who've already downloaded the newest version. I have found what I believe is a typo/bug in the Me410 turret definition and corrected it in the AI Gunnery mod and uploaded a new version - no other changes than that from Oct 26 so up to you whether you download again at this time.

 

Note that it does not seem to make any dramatic difference to things from the limited testing time I have available but thought I should make the change anyway. See how you go.

[Stonehouse]

• Will need to update the main AI gunnery mod to include the Fe2b and its "turrets" after 5.108. If I have time, I may try to create a custom turret controller bot for this aircraft so that it better fits the scout/fighter role it was used for. At the moment from a game viewpoint, it's a bomber trying to pretend to be a fighter in my opinion because the two guns are using standard turret AI and tend to switch targets quite often. Not sure if it is possible to improve it or not.
• Don't believe the AI Gunnery pilot despawn delay mod requires any update as no new pilot models were introduced for the Fe2B. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Have we a few Fe2B owners here using AI Gunnery? I've a beta version of the update I'd like tested by someone who flies WW1 often. It needs testing both using the Fe2b and also fighting against it. Some comments:

• Gunners on human piloted aircraft are always ACE skill.
• As expected, there is a drop off in accuracy and reaction as skill decreases.
• Both the front/rear gun and twin gun variant of the Fe2b use the same bot file - I can't change that. i.e. they have the same error values etc. I'm worried I made the Fe2b gunners too dangerous. My tests have been 4 Fe2b v's 4 Albatross DII at 1500m head on QMB over Cambrais and systematically varying skill levels in repeated QMBs. Using stock, the Fe2b gunner switches targets almost constantly and while I occasionally damage an enemy, I've yet to shoot one down. Using this beta, I was able to down an Albatross with the front/rear gun variant and the kill was made using the front gun and the gunner remained fairly focused on the aircraft I was tailing. Please remember that the gun burst length is based on ammo supply. I rated the Fe2b as medium. This equates to 1-1.5 sec bursts with 0.75 - 1.5 sec waits between bursts. There is a reload every 97 rounds which takes time. There are some aiming delays in the config as well to make the gunners more human like. Their aim error increases if experiencing G and they cease fire when it is more than 2Gs (this is all WW1 gunners). So, the gunner may seem to pause every once in a while. 
• Finally - please check that other two seaters (like the Bristol F2b or Halberstadt etc.) gunners are accurate enough. It may be that I've underdone them, and they also need to be made more dangerous. I am fairly sure HP400's and Gotha's etc with multiple gunners are dangerous enough as they are but check those too if you wish.

There are no changes from a WW2 point of view in this beta. 

 

Any feedback appreciated. 

AI gunnery - Fe2bbeta24nov.zip

 

 

<edit> PS fyi I had to make a custom bot file for the Fe2b.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

Have we a few Fe2B owners here using AI Gunnery? I've a beta version of the update I'd like tested by someone who flies WW1 often. It needs testing both using the Fe2b and also fighting against it. Some comments:

• Gunners on human piloted aircraft are always ACE skill.
• As expected, there is a drop off in accuracy and reaction as skill decreases.
• Both the front/rear gun and twin gun variant of the Fe2b use the same bot file - I can't change that. i.e. they have the same error values etc. I'm worried I made the Fe2b gunners too dangerous. My tests have been 4 Fe2b v's 4 Albatross DII at 1500m head on QMB over Cambrais and systematically varying skill levels in repeated QMBs. Using stock, the Fe2b gunner switches targets almost constantly and while I occasionally damage an enemy, I've yet to shoot one down. Using this beta, I was able to down an Albatross with the front/rear gun variant and the kill was made using the front gun and the gunner remained fairly focused on the aircraft I was tailing. Please remember that the gun burst length is based on ammo supply. I rated the Fe2b as medium. This equates to 1-1.5 sec bursts with 0.75 - 1.5 sec waits between bursts. There is a reload every 97 rounds which takes time. There are some aiming delays in the config as well to make the gunners more human like. Their aim error increases if experiencing G and they cease fire when it is more than 2Gs (this is all WW1 gunners). So, the gunner may seem to pause every once in a while. 
• Finally - please check that other two seaters (like the Bristol F2b or Halberstadt etc.) gunners are accurate enough. It may be that I've underdone them, and they also need to be made more dangerous. I am fairly sure HP400's and Gotha's etc with multiple gunners are dangerous enough as they are but check those too if you wish.

There are no changes from a WW2 point of view in this beta. 

 

Any feedback appreciated. 

AI gunnery - Fe2bbeta24nov.zip 1.11 MB · 0 downloads

 

Unfortunately in holiday…. Will test it when I am back ?

[cmbishop]

Hi Stonehouse

First of all, thank you very much for your mods, which considerably enhance immersion in the the game !

I've just tested the Fe2b beta version  for the AI Gunnery. It makes the machinegunner a real killer at ACE level !

I've made a quick test with the following two-seaters at ACE level : Bristol, Bréguet 14, DH 4 and Halberstadt.
In my opinion, it would be interesting to raise the level of the gunners of the Bristol, DH4 and Halberstadt. The Breguet machine-gunner killed my pilot after a few
bursts (luck?).

So generally speaking, it might be worth raising the level of the gunners to the level of the Fe2b gunner.  It would make the game a bit more challenging.

In any case, that's just my opinion...

Thanks again for all your hard work !

 

 

[Stonehouse]

5 hours ago, cmbishop said:

So generally speaking, it might be worth raising the level of the gunners to the level of the Fe2b gunner.  It would make the game a bit more challenging.

 

 

In any case, that's just my opinion...

Thanks for the feedback, hopefully some others provide more as it's good to get some consensus from the people using the mod. I'll do some more tinkering in the meantime and see what I can do. The Fe2b is an odd case as the gunner is the analogue of the fixed weapons you normally find on a scout/fighter - so at least the forward gun is meant to be an offensive weapon as opposed to the other rear facing one and the gunners on the other two seaters which are defensive. I may end up with two separate bot definitions for the Fe2b as I can attach a bot definition to each weapon. 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

With the performance of the gunners of the other WW1 planes I am happy so far. They are really threatening incoming AI fighter planes and they can’t simply fly  on your six as it would happen without your mod. Bit I still suffer losses in a two seater against ai fighters because they also aim good. It feels good balanced so far. Test the FE2b not before mid December from my side.

[cmbishop]

Thanks Stonehouse for your answer and Moltke1871 for your feedback.

We will see the other users opinion.

[kraut1]

Hi Stonehouse,

I have a question concerning AI of bomber gunners: is their ability / accuracy related to the novice / normal / high / ace settings for dogfight in the ai files too?

e.g: caeroplane_b_25_d.txt

[dogfight]
 [novice]

...

[normal]

...

[high]

...

[ace]

[Stonehouse]

15 hours ago, kraut1 said:

Hi Stonehouse,

I have a question concerning AI of bomber gunners: is their ability / accuracy related to the novice / normal / high / ace settings for dogfight in the ai files too?

e.g: caeroplane_b_25_d.txt

[dogfight]
 [novice]

...

[normal]

...

[high]

...

[ace]

 

I don't believe so. My understanding is that the gunners error calculation is in turretcontrollerai.txt (data\luascripts\worldobjects\bots) and also the dispersion of the actual weapon used has an effect on the accuracy. This is located in the appropriate weapon definition, there is a fixed base dispersion plus a temperature based one that I believe adds to the base dispersion. There are also overrides to dispersion in the turret definitions as well - I believe this is to cover types of weapon mount and the impact on weapon stability and any cooling considerations.

 

The stuff in the ai files I believe are all for forward facing fighter style armament eg Sptifire IX. If you look at the files involved in the AI Gunnery mod you will see that the ai files only cover aircraft that could be considered "fighters".  You might have noticed none of the AI file numbers are for "accuracy" or "error" - they are all about min and max ranges and angle off values. IE controlling when the AI will fire and not how accurate they are.

 

I think it does cover things like A20 forward fixed guns but that type of aircraft should not really be trying to dogfight. I think the control for dogfighting logic is the priority type of the aircraft (also in the ai files) - so only priority type 1 and 2 and maybe 7 aircraft will really try to dogfight, the rest evade/use defensive guns. Therefore, I think the ai file numbers may only really come into play for aircraft like the A20 or B26 if a target conveniently ends up in their forward arc. It is possible they only fire against ground or water targets. I haven't considered them in the mod as they aren't fighters. They should rely on their defensive turrets. ie turretcontrollai.txt.

 

As I've said elsewhere my belief is that likely for each round fired by the gunner a perfect shot is calculated, dispersion is applied somehow, then an error which is a 3d offset from an aimpoint is calculated using info in turretcontrollerai and this offset is applied to the dispersed perfect shot to arrive at the 3d co-ordinates for the fired round relative to the aimpoint. I assume then if this lies within the hitbox of the aircraft the damage location is determined and damage applied for each impacting round based on the HE fragmentation if any and penetration for the appropriate round. My theory is that the aimpoint for AI is the centre of the target aircraft or the in-game location of the aircraft which I believe would essentially be the centre. I don't think AI try to hit a particular part of the target aircraft. For performance reasons I believe the devs keep it as simple as they can while still trying to honour the complex ballistics and ammo characteristics involved. I suspect that the calc in turretcontrollerai is an approximation of the complicated math for a maneuvering aircraft gun turret trying to hit another maneuvering target aircraft - remembering that I think the calc is for each round fired because each round's damage is applied separately. I haven't tried to double guess the math the devs used and have just assumed it is correct and then tweaked the input values.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Stonehouse
clarification

[kraut1]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

 

My understanding is ..... the input values.

 

Thanks very much for your detailed answer!

[HylaHyla]

Stonehouse thanks for your efforts to make this game more satisfying and realistic.

Question: Regarding your beta testing of the Fe2b gunner, can I download your zip file to my JSGME folder and activate it that way or is there another path I need to follow? Never tried a tweak like this before so not sure.

Would love to help you in this as I was very disappointed with the gunner. Bought the Fe2b and love the plane but gunner continues to act like he's angel dusting. Never shoots at what is directly in front of him and climbs up for half a sec to man back gun when trailing enemy aircraft are way out of range and ignores threatening aircraft in range. Frustrating. Unfortunately if you try to switch to gunner position and use autopilot the results are pretty similar. Such a disappointment in what could have been a great contribution to the game.

Anyway I hope you can help out to make some headway to solving this. Thank you.

[Stonehouse]

7 hours ago, HylaHyla said:

can I download your zip file to my JSGME folder

It is a standard JSGME mod. You'd need to extract the contents of the zip to your JSGME mod folder and then activate as usual. Just use the beta or the release version of the mod, not both.

 

So ignoring where I have my mod folder as my jsgme install may differ to yours and also ignoring the other mods in the screenshot, you'd end up with the highlighted folder containing the beta in your mod folder

Edited November 30, 2023 by Stonehouse

[HylaHyla]

Installed and have tried it out in SP mode dogfight in Quick Mission with 4 Camels supporting me against four Albatross and three Pfalz fighters.

 

I stayed in pilot position for the whole battle to check out how the AI gunner performed. What an improvement! The gunner now will single out targets instead of jumping all over and firing randomly. Gunner also targets aircraft I have positioned our Fe2b behind. This is the result I hoped for so thank you very much for this mod Stonehouse! 

 

Will try out gunner's efficacy later today in trying to shoot me down. Thanks again!

[HylaHyla]

So I just flew as an Albatross D2 in QM as a 1 on 1 against the Fe2b. The Fe2b gunner was great! I flew behind his aircraft and would pause game to check his positioning. He would follow where I had my aircraft very consistently and target me. So well done!

 

The only snag was that when my shooting got a little too accurate and I killed the gunner I still received fire to the rear and front from the Fe2b. So don't know if this is a bug in your mod or in the dev's fm. 

 

Anyway your mod makes flying against and using the new Fe2b so much better. Thanks for your efforts and here's to your success! Cheers

[Stonehouse]

7 hours ago, HylaHyla said:

The only snag was that when my shooting got a little too accurate and I killed the gunner I still received fire to the rear and front from the Fe2b. So don't know if this is a bug in your mod or in the dev's fm. 

Thanks for the feedback. 99.999% sure that is a bug with the aircraft and not due to the mod. I don't change anything to do with detection of a dead AI, closest I get is to delay the despawn of the body once the AI is dead.

 

Any chance you recorded a track of it? If you did you could replay the track with mods off and see if the dead gunner still fires back. That would prove it conclusively and allow a bug report to be raised to get it fixed.

 

<edit> I've been able to reproduce the issue. It's like there is 2 AI bots overlapped. I kill the first and then the second starts shooting at me. Will try to prove if it is the mod or not.

 

<edit> definitely a game bug not a mod issue. I've reported the problem but I suspect it will be difficult to fix.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Seems like generally the feedback is good for the Fe2b. I've also slightly tweaked the gunners for two seaters generally as per comments from Charon. This won't address all the issues Charon raises (see Gunner Performance Measured - FM / AI discussion - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum (il2sturmovik.com) ) but will be better than stock. I think the comments in the linked thread are just the surface symptoms and that the problem goes further and involves things like bomber defensive formations, numbers of bombers in game and how fighter AI carries out attacks. It might get improvements by the dev team (hopefully) but I think it might be quite difficult to fix properly. ie a lot of complicated and costly rework of core modules that while worthwhile doesn't generate any income directly. This mod while an improvement (in my opinion) on stock is really just a fresh coat of paint and it doesn't fix the structural issues.

 

Anyway - since the last dev blog and the announcement that there will be another patch with new WW2 and WW1 aircraft soon, I have decided to release the beta version with the WW1 tweaks. This way if there are any glaring issues with the mod I will find out about them from user reports and I can address them post the next patch. 

 

Thanks to all who were able to help with testing the beta version. It's appreciated.

 

For people who only use the mod for WW2 - there were no WW2 related changes in this release so it's up to you as to whether you get the new version or not.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Vamandrac]

Stonehouse, does the delayed pilot despawn work for gunners too or is it just the pilot?  If it doesn't would it be possible to extend the dead gunners as well?  Also, would a separate mod with just delayed de-spawn for the pilots/gunners be possible?

[Stonehouse]

So, the gunners are part of AI Gunnery as I found it breaking immersion to kill a gunner and then have the body disappear two secs later. I also included co-pilots/navs for flyable aircraft in AI Gunnery as well. Generally, AI pilots for single seaters or the pilot slot for AI flown flyables are in the delayed despawn optional mod.

[Vamandrac]

OK, so I need 2 separate mods for both the pilots and the gunners then?  Because I am just using the AI Gunnery Despawn delay and the pilots are staying, but the others vanish almost instantly.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Vamandrac

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, Vamandrac said:

OK, so I need 2 separate mods for both the pilots and the gunners then?  Because I am just using the AI Gunnery Despawn delay and the pilots are staying, but the others vanish almost instantly.

 

The main aim of AI Gunnery was to change the behaviour of the AI for dogfighting and bomber defense. Altering the despawn of gunners and flyables crew was an afterthought that was introduced some months after the initial release and AI Gunnery despawn delay was released well after the original release of AI Gunnery.

 

In short - yes you would need both mods for gunners and crew of flyable aircraft to have a delayed despawn.

[WitchyWoman]

Hi Stonehouse,

 

So moving our discussion over here on the problems with the enemy AI skills in Flying circus.

 

I tried your suggestion, only enabled your current AI gunnery mod using JSGME and tried another career mission. This time we are searching for a large formation of bombers. My flight of of several DVs see the enemy fighters (5) behind the bomber flight they are protecting . I know they spotted us but they are just weaving slowly above me as I close in on the lowest altitude flight of 3 bombers. I see the fighters just sit there and then they drop some altitude and hang back behind my flight and again. no real aggression on their part. They are not trying to fight and sadly my squadron isn't doing much either, they end up lagging a good mile behind me as I engage. I am able to creep up to the bombers and once I take a shot the 3 bombers break up, one flies left and I stay on the tails of the 2 that go right. The gunner is firing at me but hes not accurate. I send bomber one down until he breaks up and crashes. The other 2 are doing the usual and much expected pathetic turns to right in the common "weave and flee pattern" that they always do. The fighters aren't doing anything to defend or even try to engage me and have also fell far behind.

 

I send 3 bombers to their fate and damage another 2. No challenge.

 

As I leave the area of combat they are once again weaving and turning in that same airspace as if I was still there and they were being attacked. As I fly out of their sight the enemy flight is still orbiting and doing those turns to right and weaving which again is very typical of what I have always seen.(Other players on steam and here have attested to seeing this too)

 

Settings are the same. Realistic, Dense ground, and 50/50  on advantage.

Regardless if I fly stock, just Ai gunnery enabled, or several mods enabled. They are dumb, submissive, or cowardly.

 

This does not happen at all in the WW2 modules. This would be a nasty and deadly fight for the player and that's how I would love it to be.

 

I really want to buy Module 2 and upcoming module 3 but in this state I won't.I was going to get module 2 during the last sale but opted to just buy a few of the DLC ww2 planes I was missing instead. I hope we can fix this so it can be enjoyable and become a worthy successor to ROF.

Edited December 14, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

8 minutes ago, WitchyWoman said:

Hi Stonehouse,

 

So moving our discussion over here on the problems with the enemy AI skills in Flying circus.

 

I tried your suggestion, only enabled your current AI gunnery mod using JSGME and tried another career mission. This time we are searching for a large formation of bombers. My flight of of several DVs see the enemy fighters (5) behind the bomber flight they are protecting . I know they spotted us but they are just weaving slowly above me as I close in on the lowest altitude flight of 3 bombers. I see the fighters just sit there and then they drop some altitude and hang back behind my flight and again. no real aggression on their part. They are not trying to fight and sadly my squadron isn't doing much either, they end up lagging a good mile behind me as I engage. I am able to creep up to the bombers and once I take a shot the 3 bombers break up, one flies left and I stay on the tails of the 2 that go right. The gunner is firing at me but hes not accurate. I send bomber one down until he breaks up and crashes. The other 2 are doing the usual and much expected pathetic turns to right in the common "weave and flee pattern" that they always do. The fighters aren't doing anything to defend or even try to engage me and have also fell far behind.

 

I send 3 bombers to their fate and damage another 2. No challenge.

 

Settings are the same. Realistic, Dense ground, and 50/50  on advantage.

Regardless if I fly stock, just Ai gunnery enabled, or several mods enabled. They are dumb, submissive, or cowardly. The AI in this module has serious flaws.

 

The developer had once said that the AI isn't the same as the WW2 side of this game because WW1 was not the same type war and tactics but I disagree with that on many levels. This isn't a reason to make them not fight back and just flee. It does not matter what era of aerial combat it is. Many of the same fighting skills learned in WW1 still applied to every other war after 1918 up to today. They should of, at the very least used the intelligent and aggressive ai mechanics from the moscow module and on. The way the WW1 AI acts as is, it would have made up for their total lack of fighting back at all. This dose not happen at all in the WW2 modules. This would be a nasty and deadly fight for the player and that's how I would love it to be.

 

I really want to buy Module 2 and upcoming module 3 but in this state I won't.I was going to get module 2 during the last sale but opted to just buy a few of the DLC ww2 planes I was missing instead. I hope we can fix this so it can be enjoyable and become a worthy successor to ROF.

 

Ok so please grab the _gen.mission file from IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\Missions and attach it here. I'd like to try to see if there is anything at the mission design side that causes this. Not so worried about the gunners right now - accuracy can be tweaked to the point you won't get near them - but having enemy escorts not do anything is disturbing. I'll try to get some time to attempt a ww1 career at my end as well.

 

Do you have any idea at what range you were firing at? Did you record a track by any chance?

Edited December 14, 2023 by Stonehouse

[WitchyWoman]

8 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

 

Ok so please grab the _gen.mission file from IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\Missions and attach it here. I'd like to try to see if there is anything at the mission design side that causes this. Not so worried about the gunners right now - accuracy can be tweaked to the point you won't get near them - but having enemy escorts not do anything is disturbing. I'll try to get some time to attempt a ww1 career at my end as well.

Here you go sir, I see several of this file but in other language formats. I uploaded the "eng" one. Hopefully its the file from my current career as a german pilot in 1918. Let me know.

 

 Not worried about gunners either. We need fighters doing what they are supposed to. The files reside in the steam folder "IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad"

 

_gen.zip

Edited December 14, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

18 minutes ago, WitchyWoman said:

I uploaded the "eng" one.

Almost - I need the one which is _gen.mission - this is the one I can open in the editor. The others are localisations ie french, spanish etc translations of text is my understanding.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Stonehouse

[WitchyWoman]

43 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Almost - I need the one which is _gen.mission - this is the one I can open in the editor. The others are localisations ie french, spanish etc translations of text is my understanding.

Here you go. Crossing fingers for the discovery of the problem

 

 

_gen.zip

Edited December 14, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

Not sure why but I can't open it in the editor. Get a read error. Will try to see if I can just do a career at my end.

[kraut1]

5 hours ago, WitchyWoman said:

Hi Stonehouse,

 

So moving our discussion over here on the problems with the enemy AI skills in Flying circus.

 

I tried your suggestion, only enabled your current AI gunnery mod using JSGME and tried another career mission. This time we are searching for a large formation of bombers. My flight of of several DVs see the enemy fighters (5) behind the bomber flight they are protecting . I know they spotted us but they are just weaving slowly above me as I close in on the lowest altitude flight of 3 bombers. I see the fighters just sit there and then they drop some altitude and hang back behind my flight and again. no real aggression on their part. They are not trying to fight and sadly my squadron isn't doing much either, they end up lagging a good mile behind me as I engage. I am able to creep up to the bombers and once I take a shot the 3 bombers break up, one flies left and I stay on the tails of the 2 that go right. The gunner is firing at me but hes not accurate. I send bomber one down until he breaks up and crashes. The other 2 are doing the usual and much expected pathetic turns to right in the common "weave and flee pattern" that they always do. The fighters aren't doing anything to defend or even try to engage me and have also fell far behind.

 

I send 3 bombers to their fate and damage another 2. No challenge.

 

As I leave the area of combat they are once again weaving and turning in that same airspace as if I was still there and they were being attacked. As I fly out of their sight the enemy flight is still orbiting and doing those turns to right and weaving which again is very typical of what I have always seen.(Other players on steam and here have attested to seeing this too)

 

Settings are the same. Realistic, Dense ground, and 50/50  on advantage.

Regardless if I fly stock, just Ai gunnery enabled, or several mods enabled. They are dumb, submissive, or cowardly.

 

This does not happen at all in the WW2 modules. This would be a nasty and deadly fight for the player and that's how I would love it to be.

 

I really want to buy Module 2 and upcoming module 3 but in this state I won't.I was going to get module 2 during the last sale but opted to just buy a few of the DLC ww2 planes I was missing instead. I hope we can fix this so it can be enjoyable and become a worthy successor to ROF.

Hi, have you tried to create for comparison a similar WWI Easy Mission Generator mission (I would suggest with air start (near target) ) to avoid waste of time.?

[Stonehouse]

27 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

Hi, have you tried to create for comparison a similar WWI Easy Mission Generator mission (I would suggest with air start (near target) ) to avoid waste of time.?

No but what you say is correct. Regardless of whether it is EMG or QMB - if the AI are aggressive in either, then it logically implies the mission is the issue not the mod. ie the career missions are setting waypoint priorities poorly. I'll give EMG and QMB a try first (although I know QMB seems to give me aggressive WW1 AI).

 

I guess as a cross check - @WitchyWoman could you please set up a QMB head-on engagement between your DVs and say Camels 8 v 8 and perhaps veteran or normal pilots to make them mid-range and see if you get the same results as you do in career. It may be that you are seeing a career mission bug.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Stonehouse

[WitchyWoman]

I can when I have time. Why can't the file be opened? Should I use something other than 7zip?

 

I doubt its a career bug on my end. This happens in every campaign I have ever flown for several years and this problem is experienced by others and I have reinstalled the game a few times in between those plays ,  it still persists.

 

Several threads can be found on the forums about the AI problems here. ill try to fly a mission tonight.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

47 minutes ago, WitchyWoman said:

Why can't the file be opened?

It isn't the zip, not sure why but the editor won't open the file. Perhaps you have aircraft I don't own? Not sure. Probably worth always also recording a track for any career missions for a bit, starting the track when combat begins and stopping it when you break off so the track doesn't get too large. I should be able to watch the track at least.

 

47 minutes ago, WitchyWoman said:

I doubt its a career bug on my end

Not a bug per se but a design choice that assigns a setting to the AI in the mission that stops them reacting.

 

I haven't had much spare time either but managed to do an 8 v 8 DVII v Camel QMB meeting engagement just before I went to bed last night with me on the DVII side and while the gunfire wasn't that effective (as normal with WW1 canvas and no real systems to damage except engine and pilot and pure AP rifle calibre ammo) I didn't see any lack of aggression. DVIIs lost a couple and Camel's ditto before I got too tired and gave it away. All the AI were definitely trying to maneuver to attack their enemy. I didn't see any of them fleeing unless they were damaged (a DVII RTB'd with a bad engine).

 

I'll try some EMG created missions next.

 

Not conclusive yet but right this moment I'm kind of leaning towards an issue with the mission waypoints in the career mission generation that results in the AI escorts in your mission not reacting.  From a user viewpoint this would be classed as a bug and need to be reported to the devs. They would need at least one track recording illustrating the issue to allow them to do analysis and pinpoint the cause. Career missions are all generated using a big collection of parameter files (bit like QMB missions) as far as I am aware not handcrafted. Actually, you could also try one of the handcrafted WW1 campaigns to see if your experience is the same or not. In handcrafted campaigns the author should set each individual waypoint and MCU to ensure that the AI reacts as they want them to.

 

PS the track recording supporting the bug report would need to be based on a stock version of the game. ie no mods.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Stonehouse

[WitchyWoman]

I can now confirm that in a QMB mission the enemy Ai fights as they are supposed to. Engaging, maneuvering out of fire, actually shooting back and rather accurately. So this confirms that career mode is not using these tactics at all. I knocked out one camel but then a wingman came head on at me and one burst hit me in the head. The whole time it was a legit dogfight like it should be. That was one heck of a fight and I sailed down with a hole in my head.

 

The problem is that the career mode never uses this aggressive behavior in any mission I have ever flown. If Career mode worked like this I would buy every module.

 

Ok I reread your post. I am glad we are figuring this out and that you may have to report to Devs. So now Luke will have less stress from my bitching. LOL

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

38 minutes ago, WitchyWoman said:

you may have to report to Devs.

 OK. That also explains why I haven't seen it as I test with QMB and don't really fly stock WW1 careers. More likely to fly PWCG ones.

 

It still will need a track file to successfully log the bug report. I think by default you hit LAlt R to start and stop a track recording, it's under "service" key bindings anyway. Can't access IL2GB right now but I think it says something like turn on/off flight recording. 

 

I know it's a pain but to be submissible it would need to be a flight recording from a career mission without mods running that demonstrated the issue. I can try to do some WW1 career missions but it isn't something I normally do where it sounds like you do it regularly. If you can remember to turn on flight recording when entering combat in such a mission and then turn it off when you think it has captured an example of the bad AI behaviour and then zip up the track and attach it here. 

 

The files you need to zip up are the trk file and the folder and contents of the folder associated with the trk file. You want to record the min necessary to capture an example of the issue as the tracks can get quite large and exceed the attachment limit of the forum.

 

EG the two indicated in the picture. You notice that the name of the folder matches the trk file name. 

 

[WitchyWoman]

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Edited December 15, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[WitchyWoman]

Ok Stone,

 

Started a new mission in career. Same DV, we are a flight of 5-12 or so. I took video of when I got to the target point. You will notice  like 2 dozen or more enemy planes just loitering around the target area doing absolutely nothing worth anything, I bagged a fighter, no one tried to attack me, bagged 2 more fighters, still the enemy just loiters and orbits and acts like idiots. I then stopped the track but I have clear evidence in this of both 2 seaters and a mass of fighters doing nothing of value and it seems like friendlies don't do much either. Not one mod used, stock play. This is night and day when compared to AI in QMB.

 

This happens  in all career missions no matter what type of mission is flown. The only plane that does anything logical is the player.

I looked around in the video too from the pit, so you can see all the planes just floating about and not fighting. I had my hud on just in case anything of value was needed.

 

Please see post below this for the download of Trk and Folder files documenting the issues.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by WitchyWoman