Default convergence

[greybeard_52]

I did a research on the meaning of this option present in the armament menu, but without being able to find an "official" answer, or at least shared, on its real nature.
I read that, in another game, this setting is a kind of cheat, as it adjusts the convergence in real time to the distance of the framed target, and I wonder if it is not the same for CLOD.

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, greybeard_52 said:

I did a research on the meaning of this option present in the armament menu, but without being able to find an "official" answer, or at least shared, on its real nature.
I read that, in another game, this setting is a kind of cheat, as it adjusts the convergence in real time to the distance of the framed target, and I wonder if it is not the same for CLOD.

I've not noticed the phenomenon you've described in "another" game. What I suspect happens in CloD is that the AI uses my convergence setting to determine when to initiate evasive moves.

[greybeard_52]

27 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

What I suspect happens in CloD is that the AI uses my convergence setting to determine when to initiate evasive moves.

I don't think so. I notice AI starts evasive manoeuvers always at same distance (no matter what is my convergence) and IF aware of my presence (a nice thing of this sim is that AI has not eyes even under his back!).

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, greybeard_52 said:

I don't think so. I notice AI starts evasive manoeuvers always at same distance (no matter what is my convergence) and IF aware of my presence (a nice thing of this sim is that AI has not eyes even under his back!).

What distance is that?

[56RAF_Roblex]

4 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

I did a research on the meaning of this option present in the armament menu, but without being able to find an "official" answer, or at least shared, on its real nature.
I read that, in another game, this setting is a kind of cheat, as it adjusts the convergence in real time to the distance of the framed target, and I wonder if it is not the same for CLOD.

 

I have not played CLoD for a few years but when I did there was certainly no real time adjustment going on.  If you set your convergence to 150yds and tried shooting from 400yds your bullets would cross at 150yds and never go near the target you were aiming at.  Do it the other way round, eg convergence set to 400 but shoot at 150 then you would hit the targets wings on either side but miss the fuselage.

Edited April 23, 2022 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Dagwoodyt]

24 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I have not played CLoD for a few years but when I did there was certainly no real time adjustment going on.  If you set your convergence to 150yds and tried shooting from 400yds your bullets would cross at 150yds and never go near the target you were aiming at.  Do it the other way round, eg convergence set to 400 but shoot at 150 then you would hit the targets wings on either side but miss the fuselage.

In single player I'll bet many folks are using convergence settings that are not really being applied and are actually using the default setting without knowing it.

[greybeard_52]

4 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

What distance is that?

Never misured exactly, but I think from 500 to 400 metres.

[Dagwoodyt]

2 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

Never misured exactly, but I think from 500 to 400 metres.

Should be easy to determine with labels on.

[greybeard_52]

11 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

If you set your convergence to 150yds and tried shooting from 400yds your bullets would cross at 150yds and never go near the target you were aiming at.  Do it the other way round, eg convergence set to 400 but shoot at 150 then you would hit the targets wings on either side but miss the fuselage.

The stationary weapons of a fighter are not laser beams fired from a spaceship flying through space in uniform rectilinear motion.
In reality, the weapons themselves already have a dispersion, in addition, their projectiles are launched from a moving vehicle, against another moving plane, under the effect of gravity and accelerations, in turbulent air.
Taking into account only the dispersions of the weapon, from the attached graph it can be seen that even at the convergence distance of the weapons their bullets disperse in a square of about 6 feet per side, at just over half of this distance the bullets disperse in a rectangle of about 10 x 4 feet, at double the convergence distance the dispersion is 20 x 10 feet.
Thus, if the weapons converge at about 1000 feet, the target, even if it flies straight and level, will still be hit at 600 or 2000 feet away, albeit with less accuracy and effectiveness than the convergence distance (where the bullets still do not they will never all fall into the same spot). If you add the movement of the two aircraft, that of the defending aircraft will reduce the number of hits, that of the attacker will try to increase it. For example, I always tend to give a "fan" of shots to the attacked aircraft, aiming at one of its wings and continuing to shoot up to the end of the other.

5 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Should be easy to determine with labels on.

Of course. But I never set on them, since there's a bug that impedes to have labels on together with padlocked view, and I can't live without this latter.

[56RAF_Roblex]

2 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

The stationary weapons of a fighter are not laser beams fired from a spaceship flying through space in uniform rectilinear motion.

 

Obviously but it would not have helped my explanation of the fact that convergence is actually modelled ?   Start going down that route and you may as well just tell people "Ah just put anything in as the bullets will be all over the place anyway" ?     

 

Adding in inaccuracies due to target movement and G forces etc.  adds nothing to a discussion of whether convergence is modelled.  The fact is that when flying unloaded (ie no Gs), straight and level at a target doing the same, if you set your convergence to 150yds and fire at 150yds you will do a hell of a lot more damage than you would had they been set to 400yds. You will shred the target with a 1 second burst. Fire at a target 400yds away while the convergence is set to 150 and most, if not all, of your bullets will miss.  Set your guns to 400 and fire at 150 and you will get more hits on the fuselage if you aim to one side of it.   That is the answer to your original post.

 

Quote

I always tend to give a "fan" of shots to the attacked aircraft, aiming at one of its wings and continuing to shoot up to the end of the other.

 

That proves my point.  Fire at convergence and there is no need to waste all that ammo. One or two one second bursts will be all that is needed.

Edited April 24, 2022 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Guest deleted@7076]

-Deleted-

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Varrattu
added related topics

[greybeard_52]

2 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Fire at convergence and there is no need to waste all that ammo.

Of course yes! But even if you shoot, like in your example at 150m with a convergence at 400, or vice versa, that doesn't mean no shots will hit, because there is scatter. The pilot of the attacking aircraft cannot always line up behind a target that flies straight and level, continuously measuring the distance to it, and firing when it exactly coincides with the convergence. There is also the dogfight, where it is impossible to obtain the ideal conditions described above, but nevertheless it is still possible to land a sufficient number of hits to bring down the opponent.
Personally, I profitably use the historical values of the convergence (where available) in CLOD, while in BOS, where you do not have all the very tasty opportunities offered by CLOD for armament, I found a general indication suggested by a member of some forum useful:
1). 250m for all wing machineguns
2). 300m for all wing cannons
3). 400 m for all weapons in the fuselage or at the root of the wings

 

However, no one has yet answered my initial question: what and how much is the "default convergence" in the CLOD setup?

[Dagwoodyt]

2 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

Of course yes! But even if you shoot, like in your example at 150m with a convergence at 400, or vice versa, that doesn't mean no shots will hit, because there is scatter. The pilot of the attacking aircraft cannot always line up behind a target that flies straight and level, continuously measuring the distance to it, and firing when it exactly coincides with the convergence. There is also the dogfight, where it is impossible to obtain the ideal conditions described above, but nevertheless it is still possible to land a sufficient number of hits to bring down the opponent.
Personally, I profitably use the historical values of the convergence (where available) in CLOD, while in BOS, where you do not have all the very tasty opportunities offered by CLOD for armament, I found a general indication suggested by a member of some forum useful:
1). 250m for all wing machineguns
2). 300m for all wing cannons
3). 400 m for all weapons in the fuselage or at the root of the wings

 

However, no one has yet answered my initial question: what and how much is the "default convergence" in the CLOD setup?

To best of my memory the default convergence used to be listed in the "loadout" menu. I no longer see it listed. Example of the way I recall it being listed for Spitfires is:

 

[Aircraft.SpitfireMkI_Heartbreaker]
  conv _Gun03 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  conv _Gun06 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  conv _Gun00 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  conv _Gun01 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  conv _Gun07 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  conv _Gun02 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  conv _Gun05 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  conv _Gun04 Gun.Browning303MkII 338.3281 338.3281
  belt _Gun00 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 10 2 2 11 2 2 2 2
  weapons 1
  regiment BoB_RAF_B_218Sqn

[greybeard_52]

36 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

To best of my memory the default convergence used to be listed in the "loadout" menu. I no longer see it listed.

Thanks for the tip.

[56RAF_Roblex]

Yes I seem to remember it was around 350-400 too.  Four Hundred yards was the general recommended convergence at the start of the war then pilots reduced it as they became more skilled at getting close for the kill.  Later the recommended convergence was reduced to about 250yds but again, individual pilots set their own. Eric Hartman reputedly used 50m!

Edited April 24, 2022 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Sokol1]

On 4/23/2022 at 11:26 AM, greybeard_52 said:

Default convergence.

 

It's a mess. 

The default convergence for British planes is set for a range of  338.3281 meters ~370 yards, both for Vertical and Horizontal, measure that are  not mentioned in any historical source about.

Before Blitz this values are visible in Options > Plane >Loadout > Guns but - probable due change in decimal place, the value are not more show there.

 

To add insult to injury the gunsight horizontal bars aperture is not set for match the convergence, could be set, for example, for Bf 109 wingspan.

So for make the gunsight usable as should you need adjust Range and Wingspan  in every flight, what in Quick Missions is boring.

 

For German fighters the default convergence is 100 meters horizontal, 100 meters vertical:

 

 

 BTW - The above pictures are from old version.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Sokol1

[Guest deleted@7076]

 

 

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Edited September 12, 2022 by Varrattu
added some calculation

[Dagwoodyt]

In making tracks related to posts in this thread I'm reminded that external views no longer seem to work as they used to. If I am following the AI in external view I can no longer adjust FOV using a joystick hat switch the way I used to. I am sure there is a way to correct this but I have no idea how to do it. Maybe this is just the nature of the beast but it's one more frustration I need to solve.

 

Read  manual. Works great  ?

Edited April 24, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[Guest deleted@7076]

-Deleted-

Edited September 12, 2022 by Varrattu

[greybeard_52]

21 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

It's a mess.

No! It's CLOD!?

 

21 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

370 yards, both for Vertical and Horizontal, measure that are  not mentioned in any historical source about.

I think it may derive from initial RAF convergence of 400 yards... converted to meters in reverse!?‍♂️

 

21 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

To add insult to injury...

 

21 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

For German fighters the default convergence is 100 meters horizontal, 100 meters vertical

Another random number.? I think I do well by setting the correct value in the Options > Plane >Loadout > Guns menu . I believe it is effective, because doing some tests with the tool provided by Varrattu (thanks Varrattu!?) It seems to me that the shots hit the target at the set distances.

[Buzzsaw]

The RAF aircraft in CLIFFS OF DOVER have their default convergence set to the Air Ministry standard of the time, which was 400 yards.

 

This convergence was based on peace time research/theory which was subsequently disproved in real life combat.  Subsequently the recommended Air Ministry convergence after the battle was changed to approximately 250 yards.

 

You have the option change your convergence to whatever you prefer in the game.

 

Remember you need to change the convergence of BOTH the guns themselves and your gunsight... both have to have the same value or obviously you will have problems.