Next Great Battles Module #2

[Jackfraser24]

Hi. I would like to talk about the Battle of Narva (Feb 2 to Aug 10 1944) in terms of it’s significance and why it should be included into IL-2 Great Battles if Jason Williams’s team were to return to the Eastern Front.

 

• It was a very long and bloody battle, fought over the Narva Isthmus in the Estonian SSR. The isthmus was a strategically important area because it would help the Soviets reclaim Estonia. Therefore, in its own way Narva and the Baltic Coast would be a relevant scenario to the Great Battles series.

 

• If you look on Wikipedia, it says that the German AFV’s and aircraft were vastly outnumbered by the Soviet’s AFV’s and aircraft. But that was only at Narva. For it to sell well much of the Baltic Coast and Leningrad should be included, where there would have been a lot more air to air and tank to tank action happening. This would be an advantage because no combat flight simulator has ever done this before (not even War Thunder, though please correct me if I’m wrong). Therefore it would be a unique product for a flight combat simulation dlc. 

 

• This scenario would involve the Soviet forces lifting the Siege of Leningrad and pushing the Germans back down the Baltic Coast gradually between early 1944 to October 1944 (Gregorian). Therefore it’s more stretched out rather than brief, and there would be a lot of air to air combat. 
  
   
• The plane list would not be outstandingly different to the ones used in Stalingrad, Moscow or Kuban, with both the Soviets and Germans mainly just using later variants of aircraft that are already in there, or different aircraft based off aircraft that are already in the game (I.e. La 5 and the La 7). However, they were still important non the less.

The plane list might look something like this:

• La 7
• Later Yak 9 variants 
• Later Pe 2 variants
• IL 2 1944 mod
• Tu 2
• Bf 109 G6 AS or G 8
• Later Ju 88 variants
• Ju 188
• Later Do 217 variants
• Later He 111 variants 

 

Thank you

Edited April 4, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[Jackfraser24]

Great Battles could also do a Battle(s) of Kharkov. There were officially 3, with an additional one unofficially called the Fourth Battle of Kharkov.

The first battle occurred between Oct 21-24 1941, in Operation Barbarossa, the second between May 12-28 1942 when the Axis successfully defended their hold on the city, and third between Feb 19-Mar 15 1943 following the successful Soviet defense of Stalingrad. A fourth one was really called the Belgorod-Kharkov Offensive which occurred on Aug 3-23 1943, when the Soviets finally retook the city from the Axis.

 

If Jason Williams's team is to back to the Eastern Front, the Battles of Kharkov should be looked into. Reasons being

• There were four major battles fought there (I probably well established that in too much detail, sorry) .
• All the battles at Kharkov were a part of larger military operations with different strategic goals and had different outcomes.
• It would allow an opportunity for earlier German and Soviet/lend lease aircraft and AFV's to be included, depending on whether this becomes a mainstream Great Battles or a Tank Crew DLC.

 

But I think the one Eastern Front scenario players would want would be a holistic Battle of Kursk map.

 

I believe that this would be worth the time and money spent because

• This was the largest tank battle in history.
• This was the Axis's last major advance on the Eastern Front.
• This was the battle where IL-2 ground attack planes were used the most.
• Junkers Ju 87's were heavily used as ground attack planes too (this is where the Ju 87 D-5 would come in).
• Prokhorovka from Tank crew is only a section of the Kursk area, which is great, but also kind of a teaser for someone who would want a complete map of the Kursk area dedicated for flight.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[Raptorattacker]

Jack, why don't you have a look at Stalingrad, Moscow and Kuban? There's plenty there to be going on with (planes AND theatres, that is)...

 

Just sayin'.

[CountZero]

I doubt theres gona be any ww2 soviet liberating dlcs in near future... we gona get channal 42 or 43 DLC next if there is next dlc... east front is done.

[Cybermat47]

2 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Great Battles could also do a Battle(s) of Kharkov.

 

[Robli]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

soviet liberating

 

liberation

/lɪbəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

 

1. the action of setting someone free from imprisonment, slavery, or oppression;

[Alexmarine]

23 minutes ago, Robli said:

 

liberation

/lɪbəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

 

1. the action of setting someone free from imprisonment, slavery, or oppression;

 

 

Cope harder, maybe even seethe

[Rafcio]

5 hours ago, CountZero said:

 soviet liberating 

The word to liberate in the context of anything related to the Soviet system is probably a linguistic mistake. As one of the wise Russians once put it. The situation is similar to when one bandit attacks another. And liberating someone would be like unfastening the chains that bind the slaves from the chariot and setting them free. However, when he chained them to his chariot with the same chains, it is hard to talk about liberation. Moreover, you cannot write about the liberation of someone by the Soviets, because to free someone you had to be free yourself. Consider, for example, that during the war, a large proportion of the Red Army's soldiers were kolkhoz workers. Their status in the Soviet state can be described as close to that of slaves.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Rafcio

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, CountZero said:

I doubt theres gona be any ww2 soviet liberating dlcs in near future... we gona get channal 42 or 43 DLC next if there is next dlc... east front is done.

 

I understand why this would be a popular sentiment at the moment, but let's remember that people still like to fly German planes, despite Germans... doing 'bad stuff' during WWII.

 

I don't see the current situation much differently. Russians also did some 'bad stuff' during WWII and afterwards, but the Yak-3 is still a nice plane that would be nice to fly, and this is a flight sim and not a politics/morality/current events sim.

 

A plane is just a piece of machinery. It doesn't feel anything, and it doesn't represent anything. And flying a plane with a certain paintjob doesn't mean that we, as virtual pilots, want to feel a certain way or represent a certain thing.

 

Personally, I would find going back in time to '42 or '43 a boring letdown without finishing up the last of the late war material.

 

I would also take Mediterranean over the Channel front. Channel front '42 or '43 would be very boring on the heels of Normandy.

 

I know a lot of people, especially now, feel that way about going back to the Eastern Front; but we've had 2 full development cycles since the Eastern Front. That's enough time away from it.

[S10JlAbraxis]

I would buy the battle of Narva.  Actually, Finland/Leningrad would make a great map with lots of interesting possibilities.  This was my favorite map in the original IL2.  Very interesting area.

[jollyjack]

All that battling and virtual killing; as others and i suggested earlier;

i would certainly appreciate more 'peaceful' stuff added, red-cross missions, a player willies for recon, small  STOL planes for nightflighs and spy drops or pickup missions. Would love some player boats. Logistic stuff for food supply droppings? We got a C47,

but more stuff alike can make the whole IL2 caboose more interesting. RL comes quite close these days, and i am loosing my interest a little ....

[Jackfraser24]

What planes do you believe should be in a 1942-44 northern Eastern Front scenario?

Edited April 9, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[Vig]

Hey, I just wanted to thank all you woke kids for the swell propaganda that you keep posting.

[blue_max]

2 hours ago, Vig said:

Hey, I just wanted to thank all you woke kids for the swell propaganda that you keep posting.

Oh god, some grumpy dude complaining about 'wokeness' on the internet. Please, this forum is rather pleasant, let's not go there.

[Jackfraser24]

Battle of Kursk.

 

Sorry for repeating myself, but I can’t highlight the fact enough that the Battle of Kursk should be done. For many reasons, the Battle of Kursk should be considered for an air war perspective. 

1. The IL-2s were heavily used here to take out German tanks. This hypothetical air war scenario would appeal immensely to Sturmovik fans.
2. The Ju 87s were also heavily used to take out Soviet tanks. Similar to what I said above, this dlc would greatly appeal to Stuka fans.
3. There would be a very decent air war scenario. There were 2,110 German aircraft and 2,792-3,549 Soviet aircraft present (sourced from Wikipedia) and the battle went on for 1 month, 2 weeks and 4 days. 
4. It has been recognised as one of the most significant and important battles of World War 2.  This was the Axis’s last great offensive on the Eastern Front, the largest tank battle in history, and got rid of possible further large scale Axis offensives. Also, Soviet victory wouldn’t have been as significant without Allied code breakers, and as a result of the code breakers, the Soviets knew where and when the Axis was going to strike.
5. The map would be at least 240 km north-south, assuming on the fact that that’s how long the salient was, and definitely more than 160 km east-west, for the salient bulged 160 km into the German lines. It would include cities, towns and villages like Kursk, Kharkov, Belgorod, Orel, and of course, Prokhorovka. 

[DD_Arthur]

14 minutes ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Battle of Kursk.

 

Not for me thanks. I don’t want the battle of Narva or Kharkov either.

We’ve had three eastern front scenarios and that’s plenty for me for the time being.

Personally I’d prefer the Pacific, the Med, or even Korea if it brings us carriers.

[Jackfraser24]

Operation Dragoon

 

Operation Dragoon, the Allied invasion of Southern France could be an option. It’s usually overlooked and is not as famous as the Invasion of Normandy or the Battle of the Bulge, but it could still be a commercial success.

• The aircraft included in BoN and BoBP would have also been used there when Operation Dragoon took place. Therefore, much of the work has already been accomplished, although there would need to be ten new aircraft included. Still, they could be used in pilot careers, missions and campaigns. 
• Aircraft carriers could make their debut in Great Battles. There were 9 escort carriers. And there would have to be carrier aircraft. Planes like the British Seafire and British designated American planes like the Hellcat and Wildcat. It could prepare the developers for the Pacific.
• It would geographically and con temporarily complement Normandy.
• Land aircraft would include different variants of planes that are already in in-game like older P 38s, P 39s, P 47s and B 25s.

The aircraft list could look something like this:

 

Germans

• Bf 109 G-8
• Bf 110 G-4
• Ju 88 G-7
• Ju 188 A-1

Allies

• Grumman Wildcat Mk V
• Grumman Hellcat F6F/Mk II
• Supermarine Seafire Mk III
• Bristol Beaufighter Mk VI and X
• Bell P 39Q
• Lockheed P 38 G or J

Non Flyable (Hopefully Temporarily)

• He 115
• Fw 200
• Vickers Wellington Mk XIV
• Douglas A 26
• deHaviland Mosquito Mk XII & XIII
• Spitfire Mk Vc
• Curtiss P 40N

 

Look, I know that is a lot of planes. And a lot of un-flyable ones too. But I think that they should still give it a shot. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[Beebop]

That's an ambitious idea but I think you're asking an awful lot. 

Look at how long it took to complete Bodenplatte and how long it's taking for Normandy to get to a release point. 

I personally think that's a good idea but with the limited resources and small development team for this ambitious of a project it might be difficult to achieve that goal as desirable as it may be. 

Currently they're having a third party make planes for Normandy and they are having some difficulty too getting them to meet  to Great Battle standards. 

I also think that aircraft carriers are asking a lot because it's a big ship  and currently we only have destroyers indicating that what's needed to make something of the size of a cruiser or a battleship would be a very long and drawn out process. First of all aircraft carriers would require a aircraft landing field that would be significantly higher than the ground and make it move. Then there's making the catch wires and making them work and all the AI gunners so you know I just don't think that that's in the foreseeable future. If they do solve that problem they will probably apply it hopefully to a Pacific DLC. 

Still I like the idea and hopefully some of your suggestions might actually make it through to whatever the next DLC will be. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Beebop

[Jackfraser24]

7 hours ago, Beebop said:

That's an ambitious idea but I think you're asking an awful lot. 

Look at how long it took to complete Bodenplatte and how long it's taking for Normandy to get to a release point. 

I personally think that's a good idea but with the limited resources and small development team for this ambitious of a project it might be difficult to achieve that goal as desirable as it may be. 

Currently they're having a third party make planes for Normandy and they are having some difficulty too getting them to meet  to Great Battle standards. 

I also think that aircraft carriers are asking a lot because it's a big ship  and currently we only have destroyers indicating that what's needed to make something of the size of a cruiser or a battleship would be a very long and drawn out process. First of all aircraft carriers would require a aircraft landing field that would be significantly higher than the ground and make it move. Then there's making the catch wires and making them work and all the AI gunners so you know I just don't think that that's in the foreseeable future. If they do solve that problem they will probably apply it hopefully to a Pacific DLC. 

Still I like the idea and hopefully some of your suggestions might actually make it through to whatever the next DLC will be. 

What would you see being the next Great Battles dlc? And I hope you don’t mind me asking why.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[Eisenfaustus]

On 4/4/2022 at 11:34 AM, CountZero said:

I doubt theres gona be any ww2 soviet liberating dlcs in near future... we gona get channal 42 or 43 DLC next if there is next dlc... east front is done.

For the the last year you seemed to claim Poland 44 would be next… 

 

[Jackfraser24]

Are there plans for a Continuation War on the table? I’d say it would be very popular with players, just like it was in 1946.

 

If not, why won’t they do it?

[Beebop]

Jackfraser,

I tried responding to your previous question but for some reason it failed to post. I I had several reasons but to put it a condensed version I was guessing maybe Italy with some new Italian plains and later model US planes as younger and newer people come into the game they may be more drawn to flying US/Allied. 

 

As for the Continuation War I'd really like to see that but I'm having some doubts based on what I've been reading that the devs want to go back to that early of a time. 

It would mean almost a complete new plane set including things like SB bombers although for the Finnish side many of the planes we have now of German manufacture would just need a repaint job. The Fokker XXI would be a nice plane to have and equipping both sides, especially the Russians, with skis to replace landing gear. That would mean making a whole new landing system because they're more wires and struts involved with that but it would be fun to have an i-16 or an IL-2 with skis on it and even an SB bomber with skis. 

So let's keep pouring money into the game and see if we can help fund the development team to do such a thing. 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Beebop

[303_Bies]

I don't know, it was totally one sided battle with Soviets having overwhelming numerical advantage and nearly all Luftwaffe fighters stationed in Western Europe fighting allies.

[Beebop]

Well it would be a challenge now wouldn't it?

[FliegerAD]

4 hours ago, Bies said:

I don't know, it was totally one sided battle with Soviets having overwhelming numerical advantage and nearly all Luftwaffe fighters stationed in Western Europe fighting allies.

 

If you think that was one-sided, don't look up the airwar over Normandy... The vast majority of late war scenarios has a very bad setup if you fly Luftwaffe.

 

Also, "nearly all" is a bit of an exaggeration, since around 30% of the German fighters remained on the Eastern Front for most of 1944, dropping to 20% at the absolute lowest for a short time.

The overall numbers of aircraft of all types show a different picture again, as they were almost equally distributed. What's more: in 1944, the Luftwaffe flew more than twice as many sorties in the east than in the west. ...which is not surprising if you think about it.

 

The Luftwaffe had a stronger late war impact in the east - not nearly enough, of course - and could pull off some relatively impressive operations like the evacuation of Courland even in the last weeks. (relative to its operational strength, that is).

[Robli]

Well, speaking of Battle of Narva, the most critical phase of it (Battle of Tannenberg Line) was very-very one-sided about air power. Just a handful of Luftwaffe aircraft participated in it. A big part of the Luftwaffe aircraft from Estonia had been previously sent to Finland (Detachment Kuhlmey) to help repel Soviet assault on Karelian isthmus  and the rest were more critically needed in Southern Estonia and Northern Latvia. 

Anyway, if Kanttori and his group could finish their map project, it would open the possibility of Battle of Narva as well as other battles around the Gulf of Finland region during 1941-1944, as many important aircraft for this already exist in BoX. 

[Jackfraser24]

What about doing a dlc on the Soviet Japanese War in 1945?

A Manchurian map would have to cover all of Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula, as it was swift and over pretty quickly in terms of relating to the size of Northeast China, which is vast. Plus, parts of Southeast Siberia would have to be included. 
 

A plane list would be easy enough to organise, unless the Pacific or Burma had already been done. 
 

For the Soviet Air Force

• La 7 bis
• Yak 9 UT
• Yak 3 U
• IL 2 mod 1945
• IL 10 bis 

For the Japanese Army Air Force

• A6M7 (Mitsubishi fighter)
• Ki 32 (Kawasaki bomber)
• Ki 43 (Nakajima fighter)
• Ki 44 (Nakajima fighter)
• Ki 48 (Kawasaki light bomber)

You can correct me if it is necessary and say why “this instead of that.”

Edited April 26, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[Raptorattacker]

6 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

For the Japanese Army Air Force

One huge problem with the Japanese planes. They're notoriously difficult to reproduce, especially to the detail and authenticity we have become used to in here. There is well-known and distinctive lack of documentation to develop anything like a viable set. A sad fact but unfortunately true. Otherwise someone would have already done it (and please don't refer to WT!! Most of their stuff is based on a lot of conjecture, with flight-modelling from other similar planes).

A real shame because a Ki-43 or a Zero would be a joy to have for sure!!

 

Rap

Edited April 26, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[Jackfraser24]

9 hours ago, Raptorattacker said:

One huge problem with the Japanese planes. They're notoriously difficult to reproduce, especially to the detail and authenticity we have become used to in here. There is well-known and distinctive lack of documentation to develop anything like a viable set. A sad fact but unfortunately true. Otherwise someone would have already done it (and please don't refer to WT!! Most of their stuff is based on a lot of conjecture, with flight-modelling from other similar planes).

A real shame because a Ki-43 or a Zero would be a joy to have for sure!!

 

Rap

Would the Ki 44 be the hardest? Due to the fact that there are none left around today?

[Raptorattacker]

2 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Would the Ki 44 be the hardest? Due to the fact that there are none left around today?

What a strange question. Does it really matter which would be 'the hardest'?

If there's a problem with any then it's hard, which kind of governs the fact that if you were to embark on a SIM with 'accurate' JAPANESE PLANES in it then they would pretty much ALL pose a problem.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[Jackfraser24]

1 hour ago, Raptorattacker said:

What a strange question. Does it really matter which would be 'the hardest'?

If there's a problem with any then it's hard, which kind of governs the fact that if you were to embark on a SIM with 'accurate' JAPANESE PLANES in it then they would pretty much ALL pose a problem.

How did the development team do the Japanese planes in 1946?

[Jade_Monkey]

Not my favorite choice but it was a good post ?

[Jackfraser24]

1 hour ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Not my favorite choice but it was a good post ?

Which one?

[Jade_Monkey]

Just now, Jackfraser24 said:

Which one?

Narva is not my preferred option but i liked how you structured the post.

[Jackfraser24]

49 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Narva is not my preferred option but i liked how you structured the post.

Thanks

[Jackfraser24]

Was there ever talk of of doing a Great Battles Series IL-2 1946? Because I think just heard something like that years ago.

[Cybermat47]

2 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Was there ever talk of of doing a Great Battles Series IL-2 1946? Because I think just heard something like that years ago.

 

As much as I would like that, I'd prefer to see real battles depicted first.

[DD_Arthur]

3 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Was there ever talk of of doing a Great Battles Series IL-2 1946? Because I think just heard something like that years ago.

 

No. The team have been very consistent and very firm all along; no fantasy scenarios a la’ 1946.

[Jackfraser24]

16 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

No. The team have been very consistent and very firm all along; no fantasy scenarios a la’ 1946.

This is just me talking now but I think a  new Great Battles generation would be successful, popular and fun for all. Reasons being-

• This might be the only other combat flight simulator where you could fly German, Soviet, American, Japanese and British aircraft which only made it as prototypes, experimental planes, or designs that never left the drawing board. Plus, there would be a large range of aircraft to choose from (the other one is the current IL-2 1946). 
• Because the war went on until 1945, missions would have to be imaginary. This would be cool in a sense that missions can still be realistic but at the same they would be made up. 

Right now there’s probably very little chance of this happening, but it might in several years to come. They might diversify once again and not only make 1946, but also maybe 1919 for Flying Circus. Who knows…

[CountZero]

7 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

This is just me talking now but I think a  new Great Battles generation would be successful, popular and fun for all. Reasons being-

• This might be the only other combat flight simulator where you could fly German, Soviet, American, Japanese and British aircraft which only made it as prototypes, experimental planes, or designs that never left the drawing board. Plus, there would be a large range of aircraft to choose from (the other one is the current IL-2 1946). 
• Because the war went on until 1945, missions would have to be imaginary. This would be cool in a sense that missions can still be realistic but at the same they would be made up. 

Right now there’s probably very little chance of this happening, but it might in several years to come. They might diversify once again and not only make 1946, but also maybe 1919 for Flying Circus. Who knows…

Hell will freeze over before you see anything like 1946 here LOL

Even in original IL-2 it was added when they run out of things to add, and they had faster production of stuff, BoN is almost 3 years in making, at that snail pace compared to original, we would be geting "new" game engine and all would be started to be made again for that (ala RoF to FCI,II,III...) before they run out of historical stuff to add, and start to do "what if" scenarious.

 

Players who wont "what if" have WT to play, planty of airplanes there for all kined of stuff.

Edited June 4, 2022 by CountZero