Removal of outer guns in the 190A8 to improve performance

[CUJO_1970]

Blown canopy with blade weights:

 

 

Another A8 with outer cannons removed:

 

 

JG/11 FW190A-8 with outer cannons removed:

 

 

F8s with blown canopies:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most interesting - FW190F with blown canopy and Panzerschrek missiles (yes they were used operationally)

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[CUJO_1970]

Extra credit: what's special about these Focke-Wulfs?

 

Hint: True they have no outer cannons, but that's not what is special about them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[AndyJWest]

7 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Extra credit: what's special about these Focke-Wulfs?

 

Hint: True they have no outer cannons, but that's not what is special about them.

 

Extra radio antenna fixed to the canopy?

[CUJO_1970]

3 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Extra radio antenna fixed to the canopy?

 

Good guess, but that's not it...

 

Here's another hint: think subtraction rather than addition.

[Hanu]

According to tactical markings they could be F-8's but no bombracks?

[CUJO_1970]

23 minutes ago, Hanu said:

According to tactical markings they could be F-8's but no bombracks?

 

Excellent Hanu - Indeed they are F-series, but they are not F8 as they are from earlier A5/6 series...

 

And yes - they are in clean configuration! F/G series were flown in clean configuration with no fuel racks and no bomb racks and this was apparently pretty common on eastern front - I have also more photos from this series as well as FW190 F/G series from north Africa/Med also stripped of all bomb racks and fuel racks...

 

These aircraft were used on eastern front as interceptors, and these for Stuka escort:

 

 

So, can anyone think what the implications are for F/G series flying in clean configuration, without bomb racks or fuel racks for the sim?

[CUJO_1970]

These last few pictures are among several that show FW190 could be (and was) flown in fighter configuration with 1.58 ata.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[Dr_Molem]

Gib a FW 190A-9 with 801TS engine... 

[CUJO_1970]

5 hours ago, Dr_Molem said:

Gib a FW 190A-9 with 801TS engine... 

 

Alas once the planeset was announced for Bodenplatte, it was doomed to be excluded for years if ever.

 

The fighter plane sets for Bodenplatte/Normandy were strange...it left gaps in mid-war allied fighters (P-38F/G/H, early J as well as P-47C/Early D) and gaps in late-war German fighters (/AS powered 109s/G-10 and FW190A-9/F9. Strange the common options left off the A8 as well, but you have very rare options included elsewhere, like forward guns for Arado.

 

I'm hoping those gaps get filled in the sim at some point.

[CUJO_1970]

Gib clean F-series please. Should have option to remove wing racks and ETC racks as shown in photos for F-series aircraft. This is a clean F-series SG1 machine:

 

 

All FW190 series, including F-series could be and were used operationally occasionally in clean configuration. Sometimes, as on EF that had acute FW shortages, this was done due to shortage of A-series fighters and sometimes as shown in earlier photos it was to fly escort missions (like for Stukas). Later war had KG/(J) Jaeger=fighter component to ground attack wings.

 

Finally, F-series like F8 had universal wing like shown below, this is another later SG 1 machine with outer racks faired over and wing had outer bulges for wing cannons but obviously no outer wings cannons fitted:

(pictures also from Falke Einz blog http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/ :

 

 

 

So, we should also be able to remove wing racks from FW190 F-series, just like being able to remove outer cannons from all A-series fighters. These historic correct options do not currently exist in the sim but hopefully some day with patch or game update.

 

 

 

 

[Eisenfaustus]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:50 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

The fighter plane sets for Bodenplatte/Normandy were strange...it left gaps in mid-war allied fighters (P-38F/G/H, early J as well as P-47C/Early D) and gaps in late-war German fighters (/AS powered 109s/G-10 and FW190A-9/F9.

Maybe because this way you have mid war allied planes for pto/mto options left as well as late war Luftwaffe for the Eastern Front. 

[CUJO_1970]

Cool shot similar to Priller's aircraft showing the outer cannon faired over:

 

 

 

[Drum]

Bump.

 

I know most A-8's were operational with 4 wing cannons of various caliber, but they were going against four engine bombers primarily.  Just getting into position against those heavies was difficult enough, but getting more then one pass when they did was even less likely, so 4 cannons made sense, naturally.

 

However, we don't have four engine bombers to worry about just yet, so could we have the ability to remove the 2 outer cannons so we can compete against what we are flying the A-8 against primarily (spits, tempests and other nicely prepped fighters with 150 octane, clipped wings etc.), pretty please.  ?

 

I guess we could use D-9s but the wieners in the spits and stangs or tempests and typhoons think we have an unfair advantage and we can't live with ourselves having to listen to that anymore, so give us some love in this regard please.  We can't always match them in numbers, but a little less weight should be more then enough I'm thinking.  Thanks in advance.  ?

 

Hopefully you're not afraid that gives us too much of an advantage, if so we promise not to engage the punks with numbers in our favor, promise.  ?

[FliegerAD]

I am single player only, so I am mostly concerned with historical accuracy rather than p2p-performance. Even so, I do not expect miracles from the A8/F8, yet it would be nice to have some boost.

 

Also, I wonder how they will treat the A9, should it ever come (which I hope).

[the_emperor]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:06 AM, FliegerAD said:

Also, I wonder how they will treat the A9, should it ever come (which I hope)

 

Should probably have that option to remove the outer guns, too

 

[CUJO_1970]

Here's another one of the A-8 with a blown canopy flying around in 1944:

 

 

 

Removing the outer cannons was very common.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BladeMeister]

What does blown canopy mean? I've never heard that term?

 

S!Blade<><

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, BladeMeister said:

What does blown canopy mean? I've never heard that term?

 

S!Blade<><

 

Canopy with expanded head and shoulder room, like the one available as a mod on the Dora-9. 

[BladeMeister]

This? Never heard that term associated with the Dora.

 

S!Blade<><

[CUJO_1970]

On 10/1/2022 at 8:59 PM, BladeMeister said:

What does blown canopy mean? I've never heard that term?

 

S!Blade<><

 

Similar to Allied "bubble" canopy. It was a larger canopy that enables an increased search view. It was used historically as an option on FW190A8/F8 and almost always on FW190A9/F9. It was also commonly used for the D-9 of course.

 

It's a 3D asset that already exists in the game for the Dora-9, but for some perplexing reason the developers left it off the A8/F8.

 

A8 with blown canopy:

 

 

A8 with flat canopy:

 

 

 

Also F-series with flat canopy (note wing racks REMOVED)

 

 

All F-series 190 should have the option to completely remove all wing racks and bomb racks to be able to be flown in clean configuration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[Denum]

I bet they could do another premium with this one, sorta like the spitfire with the bubble canopy. 

[CUJO_1970]

Removing the outer cannons and flying in clean configuration was a typical and common load out option for the FW190A-8.

 

[CUJO_1970]

 Walter Loos no doubt appreciated the improved search view and downright stylish looks afforded by the blown canopy.

 

I suspect he also had those outer canons removed. ?

 

[Guster]

Options for an A-8 with outer guns removed, no racks and a bubble canopy would be a welcome addition.

 

AFAIK, more A-8s and F-8s were produced than all other variants combined, so I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few were flown in this configuration. One thing is history, and another is game balance, but his way the A-8 might be a more enjoyable ride for fighter vs fighter action, without compromising historical accuracy.

[CUJO_1970]

These options, along with correcting the woefully inadequate  roll rate would go a long way to correcting years of neglect the FW190 series in Great Battles. FW190 should have peak roll rate of 160 deg/sec as is clearly shown and documented in REF testing. It would finally give players a historically correct FW190. 

3D assets for the FW190A-8 already exist. You already have the wing modeled with the F8 - and the blown canopy already exists for the D-9. It’s the exact same canopy, and with D-9 you already have option for flat canopy or blown canopy. Should be same for A8/F8 as it was historically. 
 

 

[Blutaar]

Does anyone know why the devs just dont want to give us the option? Cant be that difficult i guess. Even if it is not historical, why not just give the option so we can choose? Are all other planes 100% historicly correct when it comes to loadouts and mods? Not one gray area or a prototype loadout in the hole lineup? 

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, Blutaar said:

Does anyone know why the devs just dont want to give us the option? Cant be that difficult i guess. Even if it is not historical, why not just give the option so we can choose? Are all other planes 100% historicly correct when it comes to loadouts and mods? Not one gray area or a prototype loadout in the hole lineup? 

13lbs for Tempest , when ?

[the_emperor]

15 hours ago, Blutaar said:

Does anyone know why the devs just dont want to give us the option? Cant be that difficult i guess. Even if it is not historical, why not just give the option so we can choose? Are all other planes 100% historicly correct when it comes to loadouts and mods? Not one gray area or a prototype loadout in the hole lineup? 

 

I think after polishing the fantastic Normandy update, we will see some backtracking and the the clean FW 190 A8/F8 with the option to remove outer guns and bubble canopy will be eventually come around.  There are also other things in the need of correction (Tempest Turning, correcting BF 109G & La-5fn WEP Timer, UFO FW 190 A3 etc...) 

[CUJO_1970]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:33 AM, Blutaar said:

Does anyone know why the devs just dont want to give us the option? Cant be that difficult i guess. Even if it is not historical, why not just give the option so we can choose? Are all other planes 100% historicly correct when it comes to loadouts and mods? Not one gray area or a prototype loadout in the hole lineup? 

The options discussed in this thread for the FW190 are all historical options.

 

For your other question, no not all planes are 100% historically correct, or do have gray areas - for example our LaGG-3 29 Series with it’s 37mm cannon that was almost never used historically is one of example, or AR-234 with twin 20mm.

 

Not sure why those were included, but would just like to see actual real options included for FW190 series that are missing.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

LaGG-3 29 Series with it’s 37mm cannon that was almost never used historically is one of example

 

LaGG-3s with 37 mm cannons were utilized at Stalingrad. Maybe they weren't Series 29 planes, but they were definitely there:

 

Quote

20 LaGG-3s K-37 were built in late 1941, and they were delivered to 42 IAP on the Bryansk front in early 1942. The first combats were successful, and three enemy bombers were destroyed. However, it was noted that 20 rounds for the gun were an insufficient supply. The pilots had to fire only after having aimed carefully, and only in short burst of 1-2 rounds, both to save ammo and because the recoil forces caused the plane to drop on its nose and to lose the alignment with the target, particularly if the fighter was flying at low speed. Incendiary-explosive shells were used against flying targets, while armor-piercing shells could be used against ground armore targets.

 

In September-October 1942, these planes were utilized during the Battle of Stalingrad by the 291 IAP with good success, shooting down 13 enemy bombers; 7 K-37 were lost in combat on that occasion. During their use, they were escorted by Yak fighters. A.Ootin, commander of the 220 Fighter Air Division (IAD) to which the 291 IAP was assigned, was very satisfied with these planes, and wrote that one or two hits in any part of an enemy plane were sufficient to shot it down.

 

https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/lagg3-37/lagg3-37.htm

[354thFG_Panda_]

20 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

The options discussed in this thread for the FW190 are all historical options.

 

For your other question, no not all planes are 100% historically correct, or do have gray areas - for example our LaGG-3 29 Series with it’s 37mm cannon that was almost never used historically is one of example, or AR-234 with twin 20mm.

 

Not sure why those were included, but would just like to see actual real options included for FW190 series that are missing.

 

I have asked on the official discord about adding missing mods to the spit Vb which is similar case to mods for A8. The response was once the plane is out the door it is extremely unlikely to receive mods in future unless they are developing a very similar plane in future. So maybe if they are going to make an A9 the A8 could be updated.

[CUJO_1970]

19 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

LaGG-3s with 37 mm cannons were utilized at Stalingrad. Maybe they weren't Series 29 planes, but they were definitely there:

 

 

https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/lagg3-37/lagg3-37.htm

We have the series 29, so as I said pretty much never used historically. I would be fine with these other ultra rare 37mm LaGG to be added separately to the sim, provided the developers use real FM for them. Currently we have loadout that never existed for series 29, along with no weight or FM penalty of any kind for using it. 

 

Meanwhile, we have actual load outs used very commonly in real life that are left out for the FW190…that require essentially no  3D work at all, with assets that already exist in the sim. Some of these would increase agility as they were used in real life and if developers would give correct roll rates to FW190 it would be a much more representative aircraft in the sim. 

 

58 minutes ago, theRedPanda said:

 

I have asked on the official discord about adding missing mods to the spit Vb which is similar case to mods for A8. The response was once the plane is out the door it is extremely unlikely to receive mods in future unless they are developing a very similar plane in future. So maybe if they are going to make an A9 the A8 could be updated.

I have very little/no hope any of these things will be added. That’s why it’s such a shame when certain basic things are passed over in development, either due to lack of time/resources or lack of interest. 
 

Thankfully we have collector Spitfire with bubble canopy on the way though so all is OK ?

[Blutaar]

How about a collecter FW190 A8 bubble canopy? ?

 

Seriously, i thougt the bubble spit is the same i got with the Normandy Expansion. Just seperate as a collecter plane. I dont like!

[CUJO_1970]

More photos without outboard cannons:

 

 

 

 

[FliegerAD]

On 10/21/2022 at 2:22 PM, Blutaar said:

How about a collecter FW190 A8 bubble canopy? ?

 

Seriously, i thougt the bubble spit is the same i got with the Normandy Expansion. Just seperate as a collecter plane. I dont like!

 

This may not be a totally weird idea. After all, it seems very unlikely that they add a modification retroactively.

 

A Fw190 A8 with blown canopy and the option to remove the outer-wing guns, and maybe some other mods (don't know what is left, though)...

... and if the pricing is not too steep, I'd seriously consider it.

[the_emperor]

Edited October 29, 2022 by the_emperor

[CUJO_1970]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:29 AM, FliegerAD said:

 

This may not be a totally weird idea. After all, it seems very unlikely that they add a modification retroactively.

 

A Fw190 A8 with blown canopy and the option to remove the outer-wing guns, and maybe some other mods (don't know what is left, though)...

... and if the pricing is not too steep, I'd seriously consider it.

If that’s what it takes I’d pay for it instantly. 

Even if I thought purchasing content I don’t use would help I would do that. Once I realized it doesn’t help I stopped paying for things I don’t use…but I would pay an exorbitant amount of money for content I actually want. 

 

 

 

On 10/29/2022 at 10:36 AM, the_emperor said:

Those are both F-series 190s, naturally they have no outer cannons…but that second picture is especially interesting as it is a jabo unit on the eastern front that has been assigned escort duty. It proves F-series we’re flown in clean configuration and at a time when Jabo units were using 1.58 ata boost. 
 

All F-series from 1943 forward should have option to remove all bomb racks and fly in clean configuration and they should have access to 1.58 ata while doing it. 
 

It truly amazes (disappoints) me the basic things left off or passed over on the 190 series. If they would give it the real options it had, and correct the roll rate to the measured 160 degrees per second peak it had in real life it would go a long way to helping this aircraft be a more accurate representation of the real thing. 

[FliegerAD]

Some things are probably reserved for a later module, including the high-performance Fw 190 A/F late models.

Some things are weird oversights that we unfortunately have to live with until the event of another module or collector plane.

 

Of course that does not mean one should not draw attention to it. Quite the opposite. I want my bubble canopy, outer-wing-cannon-less A8, one way or the other.

[CUJO_1970]

Here is a captured A-8 after the war with the outer guns removed and faired over:

 

 

Two FW190A-9 with a better look of the covered outer gun ports:

 

 

[Eisenfaustus]

Now that it seems like we‘ll never get a late eastern front module for GB I think a Fw 190 A-9 with the ability to remove outer canons in a fighter variant could be a viable choice for a collector plane.