DLSS support for IL-2?

[Asgar]

It's been a topic of interest multiple times over the last couple years. Especially the VR community is putting a lot of hopes in DLSS to increase performance and after the recent poll showed 80+% of user working with Nvidia graphics cards, many of them modern RTX cards. I think it would be a worth while technology to support. Especially from what i understand the implementation is very low effort for game developers. 
In all the discussions surounding DLSS I've never seen a statement from any team member about the intent or possibilty of DLSS being added to the game. Maybe we can get a response? Even if it's a no, it would be great to know. Thanks

 

Where 410?

[R3animate]

As a 3080 (previously 1080) owner, I'd much rather see them implement FSR2.0 instead. 

 

Easier implementation for devs + works on EVERYONE's GPU, not just Nvidia 2000/3000 series. That means that if Intel does succeed with their GPU launches, or if integrated cards get better and better over the years, those users will see the benefit too. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see them do either/or -- but yeah, hopefully they're at least looking into it. I know the game runs great in 2D on a wide variety of hardware but in VR especially it would be a massive performance boost (the openvr DLL mod already shows promising results, and that FSR1.0 and NIS)

[354thFG_Leifr]

22 minutes ago, R3animate said:

As a 3080 (previously 1080) owner, I'd much rather see them implement FSR2.0 instead. 

 

Easier implementation for devs + works on EVERYONE's GPU, not just Nvidia 2000/3000 series. That means that if Intel does succeed with their GPU launches, or if integrated cards get better and better over the years, those users will see the benefit too. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see them do either/or -- but yeah, hopefully they're at least looking into it. I know the game runs great in 2D on a wide variety of hardware but in VR especially it would be a massive performance boost (the openvr DLL mod already shows promising results, and that FSR1.0 and NIS)

 

Agreed. FSR2 would be better for everyone, not just those sitting on ridiculously expensive video cards. ?

[Raptorattacker]

34 minutes ago, Leifr said:

Agreed. FSR2 would be better for everyone, not just those sitting on ridiculously expensive video cards.

One of which I for one am NOT!!

[Youtch]

There is already a mod for FSR, what are the improvement we would expect with in-code implementation?

[R3animate]

8 minutes ago, Youtch said:

There is already a mod for FSR, what are the improvement we would expect with in-code implementation?

 

The mod is FSR1.0 and only for VR as far as I'm aware. FSR2.0 results in better visual quality particularly in motion.

 

Native implementation would render UI properly (injecting FSR means any overlayed items like UI or maps would be upscaled when they could just render at native anyway) and would be a nice to have for people that aren't comfortable modding it in).

[Asgar]

On 3/31/2022 at 3:59 PM, Leifr said:

 

Agreed. FSR2 would be better for everyone, not just those sitting on ridiculously expensive video cards. ?

Thing is, i and a good portion of IL-2 players have paid a "ridiculous" amout of money for my graphics card and i would like the sim to take advantage of it's AI cores. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Asgar

[LuftManu]

It would be great! and also, having DLSS support in a flight sim would shift some attention towards Il-2  

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

There are no AI cores on your graphics card.
I think you got something mixed up about DLSS using temporal upscaling (which works with "AI").

But that AI part happens on Nvdias super computers not on your graphics card. 
You are not missing out on something if a game supports FSR but not DLSS and the only things thats unused on these cards are the RT cores.

 

Edit: I own a RTX3080 and I wouldn't want the devs to waste their time on DLSS, however FSR would definitely help a  lot of people no matter which brand GPU they got.

Edited March 31, 2022 by =ARTOA=Bombenleger

[DD_Arthur]

I’m not having a graphics card this year.

I’m having a gas and ‘leccy bill instead ?.

[Asgar]

7 minutes ago, =ARTOA=Bombenleger said:

There are no AI cores on your graphics card.
I think you got something mixed up about DLSS using temporal upscaling (which works with "AI").

But that AI part happens on Nvdias super computers not on your graphics card. 
You are not missing out on something if a game supports FSR but not DLSS and the only things thats unused on these cards are the RT cores.

 

Edit: I own a RTX3080 and I wouldn't want the devs to waste their time on DLSS, however FSR would definitely help a  lot of people no matter which brand GPU they got.

Tensor cores are optimised for ray tracing and deep learning application. So yes... AI cores, also the reason DLSS doesn't work on AMD cards

[Cravis]

DLSS2.0 as a proprietary solution should be rejected.

FRS2.0 does the same and works on almost all modern GPUs.

[Asgar]

13 hours ago, Cravis said:

DLSS2.0 as a proprietary solution should be rejected.

FRS2.0 does the same and works on almost all modern GPUs.

DLSS 2.2 as a more powerful solution that can fully utilize the investment that a big portion of players made, should definitely not be rejected, just because you can't utilize it

Edited April 1, 2022 by Asgar

[Cravis]

The argument is not that I can't utilize it. The argument is that nobody using AMD or Nvidias own 1000 Series or older cards can utilize it. In the future Intel will be added to the cards that do not support it.

It is a unnecessary limit for the userbase considering that there is an alternative.

FSR2.0 can be used by probably almost 100% of IL2 players now and in the future, DLSS simply can't.

 

Why would you support a technology that can not be utilized by everyone when there is a competitive technology for almost everyone?

You too can run FSR2.0.

 

 

 

[Jade_Monkey]

+1 for the existing FSR version. I use it and its simple and very effective.

Works very well with either brand of cards and you also have the option to use Nvidia' s NIS (same idea with different implementation).

Just as easy as dropping two files in the bin>game folder.

It would be nice if devs include this by default.

[Mtnbiker1998]

Until FSR2.0 is actually released and we can see if it's truly competetive with DLSS, I see no reason to simp for it, open source or not. FSR1.0 was pretty disappointing, so I'm fully in the DLSS camp for now.

 

Even DLSS has its issues in the current versions which make me wonder how it will work in a flightsim though. Small Birds in Red Dead 2 can become nearly invisible, blurry messes with DLSS on and I'd hate to imagine trying to spot and ID aircraft if they get a similar treatment. As a VR user with an RTX card, as much as I'd love the extra performance boost, we're probably best off waiting to see how this upscaling tech further evolves

[Cravis]

If it is about FSR1.0 vs. DLSS then it is DLSS. The image quality hit by FSR1.0 usually makes it not worth while. At least for me.

And yes we will only see when it actually arrives on the market. But the video by AMD is promising. May I point at time stamp 0:42 to 0:44 and guide your eyes to the window at the centre of the top edge. FSR1.0 struggles with it the result is aliased blurry object meanwhile FSR2.0 removes all aliasing and shows every detail.

FSR2.0 still has no ML elements as DLSS2.0. It probably won't delivery the exact same image quality. However if it is almost there DLSS2.0 should be rejected for its proprietary nature especially in light of future development.

IL2GB apparently is meant to stay and basically be a platform. As such I would guess 1C to plan to have it be around for longer. This year Intel will launch its Arc lines of dedicated gaming GPU. Currently they have no cards truly meant for high-end or enthusiast markets so it probably won't matter for IL2GB too much.*

But Intel seems determined to change that in the intermediate-term. 

Intel by the way offers a temporal upscaler with ML integration as well: Intel® Arc™- Xe Super Sampling

Which just like FSR2.0 will be open source.

It will take a bit longer to arrive but again it is promising and again it is unbound from the hardware brand and only tied to hardware features. It will work for AMD with anything younger than RDNA2 (RX6000 series) and for Nvidia anything younger than the very important Pascal (GTX 1000 series).

 

*Current Arc details suggest the fastest card could theoretically match a RX6800XT or RTX3070, in a synthetic benchmark the Arc beat a RTX3070Ti by 8%. However this was testsample and not a consumer end product. Driver and compatibility are big question marks at this time.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:04 PM, Asgar said:

Tensor cores are optimised for ray tracing and deep learning application. So yes... AI cores, also the reason DLSS doesn't work on AMD cards

There's no "deep learning" (I hate buzzwords) whatsoever going on in DLSS. It is actually relatively conventional filtering, only with the filters trained by a Convolutional Neural Network.

 

Also, a tensor is nothing different than a multidimensional matrix; there's nothing special about them and there are no special calculations associated with them. A "normal" GPU or even CPU core by whatever manufacturer including AMD could do the exact same things, only they aren't optimised for it.

[Voyager]

Given DLSS advertises that its trained on one of nVidia's super computer things, I'd expect it to have nontrivial licensing fees. 

 

Thing is, I've seen DLSS in other titles, and haven't really been impressed either. It improves frame rates, but it also adds artificates, even in recent AAA titles. Given how contentious spotting already is, it just seems like it's baiting issues spending a ton of money to add more artifacts to the image. 

[Asgar]

DLSS ist still the best, give us DLSS. 

[blue_max]

Well, as the happy owner of a non-Nvidia card I would prefer a vendor agnostic upscaling solution, if 1C makes the time to implement it.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 hours ago, blue_max said:

if 1C makes the time to implement it.

And that right there is the problem. This isn't child's play. I've got experience with both Convolutional Neural Networks (NVIDIA's DLSS) and classic filtering (AMD's FidelityFX/FSR), and it honestly wouldn't surpise me if it'd take the IL2 team a whole year to develop something like this, if they decided to. That's clearly not possible.

 

Besides, a "vendor agnostic upscaling solution" already exists with AMD's FSR. It's even possible to run IL2 with it, see for instance:

[Cravis]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

honestly wouldn't surpise me if it'd take the IL2 team a whole year to develop something like this, if they decided to. 

 

Maybe relevant to this, AMD estimated implementation times for FSR2.0:

 

[blue_max]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Besides, a "vendor agnostic upscaling solution" already exists with AMD's FSR. It's even possible to run IL2 with it, see for instance:

 

You're right of course. But both FSR 2.0 and that intel implementation XeSS will need temporal data, same as DLRSS. Which means a significant refactor of the code... so probably stuck with FSR 1 for the foreseeable future.

[IckyATLAS]

Would it not be possible to have both and users select the one they want: FSR 2.0 or DLSS 2.0. This would be more a political choice than an economical one for sure to avoid discrimination complaints.

 

 

 

 

Now my personal opinion is: ...................... Go for DLSS 2.0 ! Go! Go! 

[Lloydy]

Yes, please DEV's we would love a road map on the engine dev!   

Regarding upscaling tech....Yes please.  Since FSR2.0 isnt out yet we can only hope its good. I've seen DLSS 2.3 and its very beautiful as it solves many of the artifacts u would see in 2.0. I turn it on where possible just for the brilliant AA it provides, . If FSR2.0 is just as good i'ld love to see that supported too.

From the poll results its plain to see we almost all he poll everyone uses Nvidia cards anyway and from what i can see in the hardware benchmarks for this sim the latest AMD cards don't seem to be providing the performance they should in this title, so the engine seems to favor Nvidia cards already.

 

As an exclusive VR user I'm really hoping for at least one good upscaling to be implement like this( FSR1.0 and NIS don't count).  Also would love some foveated rendering support too, via a MOD I get a huge performance boost in MSFS2020 with it for no image quality loss. so it should be a no brainer to include in IL2.

[R3animate]

As an FYI / FSR2.0 launches May 12th :). They snuck it into a press release for their **50 series cards.

 

"Initial list of games adding future support for AMD FidelityFX™ Super Resolution (FSR) 2.0 include Farming Simulator 22, Forspoken, Microsoft Flight Simulator, and others; DEATHLOOP expected to add support for AMD FSR 2.0 on May 12, 2022"

 

https://ir.amd.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1064/amd-announces-three-new-radeon-rx-6000-series-graphics

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

Many of AMD's techniques (like FSR) are open-source, which probably makes it easier for the devs to implement.

[Ribbon]

7 hours ago, R3animate said:

As an FYI / FSR2.0 launches May 12th :). They snuck it into a press release for their **50 series cards.

 

"Initial list of games adding future support for AMD FidelityFX™ Super Resolution (FSR) 2.0 include Farming Simulator 22, Forspoken, Microsoft Flight Simulator, and others; DEATHLOOP expected to add support for AMD FSR 2.0 on May 12, 2022"

 

https://ir.amd.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1064/amd-announces-three-new-radeon-rx-6000-series-graphics

Either FSR 2.0 or DSLL 2.3, which ever will be easier to implemet and please everybody.

Since new Clouds hotfix and new skybox update my fps went down quite a bit, add to it still present too much glare in VR.

Performance suffered a lot while graphics upgrade doesn't look not even close groundbreaking, i still think of it as a very bad tradeoff and VR quality downgrade.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

On 3/31/2022 at 5:08 PM, Asgar said:

Thing is, i and a good portion of IL-2 players have paid a "ridiculous" amout of money for my graphics card and i would like the sim to take advantage of it's AI cores. 

The problem with this line of argument is that FSR 2.0 seems to be quite comparable to DLSS,

which IMO begs the question whether the Tensor cores actually are necessary for DLSS at all.

 

Spoiler

 

I myself am sporting an RTX 2060, so I would love it for Nvidia to come out with DLSS 3.0 to counter FSR 2.0, but then again, I'm a sceptic by nature.

So I myself would be happy to ignore the Tensor cores on my card if it means that the game gets any upscaling at all, and if it's FSR 2.0 due to GPU compatibility then that's also good. 

 

Anyway, IL2 would need to basically implement TAA first before either DLSS 2.3 or FSR 2.0 could be implemented as well.

Edited May 12, 2022 by So_ein_Feuerball

[cellinsky]

I have tried fsr as well as dlss with various games/sims. No matter what intelligent routine works behind the scene, its still UPSCALING. A plane reduced to a view pixels and then blown up is still a blob. Better frametimes, yes. But for the loss of too many details imho, especially important for spotting and idendfying. Im back to stock with sims. For shooters it way less critical.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

1 hour ago, cellinsky said:

I have tried fsr as well as dlss with various games/sims. No matter what intelligent routine works behind the scene, its still UPSCALING. A plane reduced to a view pixels and then blown up is still a blob. Better frametimes, yes. But for the loss of too many details imho, especially important for spotting and idendfying. Im back to stock with sims. For shooters it way less critical.

Which sims actually feature DLSS? And FSR 2.0 is only implemented in a single game that's most definitely not a sim ?

 

I'm not counterarguing  your upscaling argument, I'm just saying that unless we actually see the result,

it's a bit premature to dismiss the technology outright.

[Cravis]

FRS2.0 is out for Deathloop and the results are encouraging.

 

English: AMD FSR 2.0 Quality & Performance Review - The DLSS Killer | TechPowerUp

German: AMD FSR 2.0, FSR 1.0 und Nvidia DLSS in Vergleich - ComputerBase

 

The summary is that FSR2.0 is as good as DLSS2.3.

 

Now this is obviously only true right now for Deathloop but it shows what FSR2.0 can do.

[III/JG52_Al-Azraq]

I would love to see DLSS or FSR 2.0 added, but it is more work than it looks like as developers will have to implement motion vectors. They can do it though, and would be a huge boost for performance and also visual quality.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

17 hours ago, Cravis said:

FRS2.0 is out for Deathloop and the results are encouraging.

 

English: AMD FSR 2.0 Quality & Performance Review - The DLSS Killer | TechPowerUp

German: AMD FSR 2.0, FSR 1.0 und Nvidia DLSS in Vergleich - ComputerBase

 

The summary is that FSR2.0 is as good as DLSS2.3.

 

Now this is obviously only true right now for Deathloop but it shows what FSR2.0 can do.

AFAIK Deathloop doesn’t yet use DLSS 2.3, but rather an earlier iteration, which is why we‘re seeing the ghosting effect on weapons, though Nvidia does have better fine detail reconstruction.

 

Still, FSR 2.0‘s quality mode trading blows with the game‘s DLSS implementation is very much encouraging, and I have high hopes for it, even if I am using an RTX2060 myself. 
 

Either FSR 2.0 will from now on beat DLSS or DLSS will become better due to the competitive pressure from AMD,  we customers will benefit in both cases.

[Youtch]

I might be confusing things a little, but does this amd fsr2.0 version could imply a review of the currently widely use mod fsrmod (at least for VR)? Or nothing to do one with another?

 

[SCG_motoadve]

Where can I download FSR2.0?

[Cravis]

8 hours ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

AFAIK Deathloop doesn’t yet use DLSS 2.3, but rather an earlier iteration

 

Nvidia lists Deathloop as using DLSS 2.3: From NVIDIA DLSS 2.3 To NVIDIA Image Scaling: NVIDIA’s Full Stack Of Scaling Solutions For Gamers | GeForce News | NVIDIA

 

7 hours ago, Youtch said:

I might be confusing things a little, but does this amd fsr2.0 version could imply a review of the currently widely use mod fsrmod (at least for VR)? Or nothing to do one with another?

 

FSR as a "mod"? The only thing I can think of is you referring to image scaler such as "lossless scaling" on e.g. Steam.

FSR2.0 will not be possible this way. FSR2.0 just like DLSS uses a temporal element to scale the image. In terms of quality they are really not comparable. I actually tried lossless scalling with the AMD FSR method and the results are honestly terrible, it doesn't even compare on any level to native FSR1.0 support despite supposedly using the same method.

 

Nvidia has a similar scaler available called Nvidia Image Scaling or short NIS: How to Enable NVIDIA Image Scaling | NVIDIA (custhelp.com)

You can try it yourself but I can tell you upfront you will be disappointed, there is no comparing that to DLSS either.

 

2 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Where can I download FSR2.0?

 

You don't. It is implemented directly into video games that support it. Currently only Deathloop has FSR2.0.

If you have Deathloop just update the game and it should be in the graphics options.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Cravis

[Youtch]

3 hours ago, Cravis said:

FSR as a "mod"? The only thing I can think of is you referring to image scaler such as "lossless scaling" on e.g. Steam.

FSR2.0 will not be possible this way. FSR2.0 just like DLSS uses a temporal element to scale the image. In terms of quality they are really not comparable. I actually tried lossless scalling with the AMD FSR method and the results are honestly terrible, it doesn't even compare on any level to native FSR1.0 support despite supposedly using the same method

I was referring to this.

[Cravis]

Oh I see. Its basically the same as Lossless Scaling just for VR. 

Honestly I'm a bit surprised people seem to be satisfied with the results. My own experience are thoroughly disappointing. Each to their own I guess.

 

However it still holds true that NIS is not DLSS and FSR or FSR1.0 is not the same as FSR2.0.

I'm no expert, just gamer but from what I understand is that the temporal component of the scaler needs to be directly implemented in the rendering pipeline of the game making DLSS and FSR2.0 impossible as a external program.