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[56RAF_Roblex]

16 hours ago, BCI-Nazgul said:

 It is sad that in the fourth generation of WWII combat sims we have yet to see one that allows players to fly formations of heavy bombers like the B-17, Lancaster, B-29, etc... 

 

If you mean that in the current set of flight sims they are not there then OK but I regularly flew in big formations in Warbirds.  There was a restriction on how many aircraft would render at once so on the weekly events we usually split the bombers into two groups of 10-12 bombers with about 4-6 escorts. The sorties lasted a couple hours there and back so taking damage made life interesting...in a good way.

 

 

Aces High did not usually have such large formations of human players, maybe up to 8 much like we have in IL2 now.   CLoD would sometimes have formations up to 32 strong as experienced here November 2nd - A lovely bag even if I did lose my ride.: roblex56raf — LiveJournal

 

 

but they were almost always AI (though in the lovely video 'Beginning Of The End' they may have all been humans) https://youtu.be/v6u4JxgE2S4

 

[Stig]

Pretty sure the bombers were all AI; if there were any humans it would have only been a few. 

[56RAF_Roblex]

1 hour ago, Stig said:

Pretty sure the bombers were all AI; if there were any humans it would have only been a few. 

 

I would be surprised if there were that many human flown bombers but there was footage from the bombers viewpoint.  Perhaps they put a couple of player bombers in amongst the AI formation.

[354thFG_Rails]

16 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

I ask them to fire at long range, some times they talk before you get engage. But they spend up all their ammo. Letting them firering at will is a bad idea, the fighter might still not detected you

True, sometimes I’ll change the distance if I think they haven’t spotted me.

[Lusekofte]

3 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I would be surprised if there were that many human flown bombers but there was footage from the bombers viewpoint.  Perhaps they put a couple of player bombers in amongst the AI formation.

ACG had huge campaign going. In that time I flew 110 , HE 111 and JU 88 in campaign. Sky was full of planes.

Video say it was all human

Crap, they binned the topic in complaint section. 

Well, I can't said it ain't complaining

Edited March 30, 2022 by LuseKofte

[BCI-Nazgul]

Most games support formations of AI bombers, a few support 4 engine AI bombers, but find me a modern game that lets PLAYERS fly groups of heavy bombers with detailed models like we have in IL2 for the fighters and medium bombers.  Even IL2 1946 didn't support that even though you could fly some of the heavy bombers with a generic cockpit.

Edited March 30, 2022 by BCI-Nazgul

[Stig]

21 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I would be surprised if there were that many human flown bombers but there was footage from the bombers viewpoint.  Perhaps they put a couple of player bombers in amongst the AI formation.

 

You may be right, or it was just the 'video maker' flying a bomber to get those shots. 

[DBFlyguy]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:52 PM, BCI-Nazgul said:

Most games support formations of AI bombers, a few support 4 engine AI bombers, but find me a modern game that lets PLAYERS fly groups of heavy bombers with detailed models like we have in IL2 for the fighters and medium bombers.  Even IL2 1946 didn't support that even though you could fly some of the heavy bombers with a generic cockpit.

 

IL-2 1946 is the closet we may ever get unfortunately....

 

 

 

amazing what Oleg and his team were able to do back in the day with 1946... hopefully we get a portion of that again eventually from a dev someday...

Edited April 1, 2022 by DBFlyguy

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

The gunners are in a better place as far as replicating real life gunnery, (which many have stated is the point of GB not "gameplay" but "simulation" which I think is a stupid place to put a hard line). However, I can see how flying a bomber is totally not fun at all if you're going solo. It wasn't fun IRL and its not here. The gunners were totally ridiculous before the change. Being able to hit a moving object that is changing its distance as well as orientation is extremely difficult past 200 yards and that's assuming YOU aren't moving. When you are moving as well in a direction that is entirely independent from your weapon or where you point it the task is even harder. It's even difficult within 200 yards if the target is trying not to get hit. If you park behind a bomber now you will get roasted but if you slash attack the threat from bomber gunners is benign, which is rather accurate to be honest. This is why bombers flew in huge formations with lots of escorts if able. Bombers/Attackers NEED fighter cover or else they need to be very sneaky and inventive in their tactics/approach. Of course the attitude that GB is all about "realism" and not "balance" or "gameplay" is something that is brought up a lot in these forums and is just stupid in my opinion because the GAME has limitations as everyone knows and is not capable of creating circumstances to support realistic tactics/methods. All that being said I think the gunners could at least fire wildly at longer distances against fast moving threats and should be tweaked a little bit to be more deadly in close range (<200m) to make the bomber experience better for bomber pilots. You could also join the bomber section of 332FG. They are the most active of our big group and if you are willing to work with others its always a fun time even if you don't survive!  https://www.332ndfg.com/     226 is our bomber section however they are good in many different types!

 

PS It would also be AMAZING if we could get a FLYABLE B-25 or B-26. US bomber boys need some love.

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

[6./ZG26_Loke]

@-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138.

You forget one thing, which is what LuseKofte initial started with. We just like to have those gunners talking to us, warning us from where the enemy is coming from. And yes also actually shooting at the enemy and not all over the place. Currently they are not even trying to hit. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:40 PM, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

If you park behind a bomber now you will get roasted

Not necessarily.

 

Where it stands out a country mile just how "bad" ai gunners are now is in FC.  The rear gunners struggle to hit slow moving aircraft made of canvas and wood that can indeed park on your six and plug away with relative impunity.

 

Our squad, flying Bristol's were shot down by a single fighter who just lined out behind and merrily took out the whole flight, the gunners were next to useless. This could of course be due to server side settings, netcode,"skill" or whatever?  

 

We can all agree that the gunners were "superheroes" before and ridiculous, but now they have turned into more or less useless extra weight that seem unable to hit straight and level aircraft and warn you about incoming enemy aircraft an hour after you have been shot down. 

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

FC is a different animal to ww2. All the planes take a lot more hits in general if you dont kill pilot. In WW2 if i park behind bombers i get smoked by AI. I agree they should alert you at least if someone is attacking you but i dont know if that has really changed or not as i haven't flown much bombers since the change and if i have its been in a group so all of this is moot in that circumstance as my wingmen are alerting me and escorts are protecting us. In FC I have been hit by ai since the change while chasing and staying straight in Flugpark. Once in D8, once in D7, and once in Pfalz. In the D8 i took damage then started to move around before firing again and took hits again, this repeated a few times before the guy went down finally and i rtb'd with damage. In the D7 i couldnt bring the bristol down and had to break off and in the Pfalz I took many hits before breaking off of a very damaged bristol and my engine died before i could make it home. In all instances i did not necessarily park behind but I could not make slash attacks effectively because i did not have energy advantage and was on the deck. If anything I feel the gunners are maybe more effective in FC than ww2 where I find it easier to setup an energy advantage for the attack however this is my experience and I do understand that for solo bomber players the gunners dont do much. As I said above I think they need some tweaking for sure, just like many other important aspects of the game.

[JG7_X-Man]

Guys, I am not a game developer but it doesn't take one to understand that to get the number of aircraft we did in IL-2 1946, with the detail we have in IL-2 BoX, you would need close to a Fugaku supercomputer for IL-2 BoX to be in any way playable.

 

Maybe a new gaming engine is needed?

[jollyjack]

Just been doing some test experiment with some 30 bombers and 10 fighters ... it runs, but you cannot add too much add-on goodies.

The IL2 sky has  definitely a limit ... f.i. time scale, even 2x, forget it ... But the graphics are fine LoL.

[BCI-Nazgul]

2 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Guys, I am not a game developer but it doesn't take one to understand that to get the number of aircraft we did in IL-2 1946, with the detail we have in IL-2 BoX, you would need close to a Fugaku supercomputer for IL-2 BoX to be in any way playable.

 

Maybe a new gaming engine is needed?

No sheet.  That's been apparent for years.  Every company doing WW II games is using some old engine from the 2000's they've adapted.   I bet MS 2020 the only flight sim that has a new engine and I'm not even sure about that.

Edited April 5, 2022 by BCI-Nazgul

[SIA_Target]

Funny, I thought there was something missing from the bomb sight, seemed to remember being able to zoom in in the sight. And it's true about the rendering being useless for any bombing approach at altitude. Personally I don't mind a long bomber mission culminating with a high altitude IP. That is if I can rely on a gunner that is at least halfway competent. Not asleep at his post. Nothing more aggravating than to have spent a goodly amount of time getting up and taking the long way around to the target just to have my wing shot off from out of nowhere. At least if my gunner was alert I'd have a better chance.

 And as for the fighter centrist ones among us, just having a dog fight server is a bore IMO. That's why I like the Finnish server, it takes bombers to move the line, there's a goal to achieve and the bomber is the best way to get it done. Imagine playing football, (American or otherwise) and never trying to move the ball to the end zone or scoring a goal. That's a  flight sim without bombers.

  Besides, my right eye is only operating at 50% nowadays. You boys/girls who shoot me down don't need to have much prowess.? So flying bombers is good medicine for those of us who walk into walls.

 

 Give us decrepit types some defensive fire power. If it's got to be an A 20, why not an A 20 Havoc with a power turret. Or a B 24. Can't help it if the Germans never saw the need for a good 360 degree gunner's station. But oh wait, they're getting the Avardo.

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Just a couple of videos from yesterday while flying on the Finnish server. The AI gunners are "really" struggling to hit targets. They also fire in what seems to be a random manner. They also leave the gun and "rest" during combat.  At this point I'd like an option to remove the gunners because they are currently just dead weight and maybe we can get a few more kph out of the aircraft.

 

Aircraft attacks from high six, gunner fires to the left.

 

 

Wild firing and gunner resting in combat.

 

 

 

[AKA_Ramstein]

JU-88 C breaks up if you fart during landing. No excuse for this... the aircraft literally comes apart in the last 2 seconds of rolling to a stop, the top comes off and spin backwards just before it says you died

[Dauntless]

Don't fart! 

 

[Rache-der-Boote]

On 4/2/2022 at 6:23 PM, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

We can all agree that the gunners were "superheroes" before and ridiculous, but now they have turned into more or less useless extra weight that seem unable to hit straight and level aircraft and warn you about incoming enemy aircraft an hour after you have been shot down. 

They are far from useless as they provide a 100% accurate RWR within visual range of the AI gunner. The suggestion that the gunners don't alert you when you are being attacked is false.

 

If you want better accuracy than what the AI provides, man the gunner position - problem solved.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

7 hours ago, perm said:

They are far from useless as they provide a 100% accurate RWR within visual range of the AI gunner. The suggestion that the gunners don't alert you when you are being attacked is false.

 

If you want better accuracy than what the AI provides, man the gunner position - problem solved.

Yeah I must have just imagined all of this, flying for years as a ground attacker and being "ill informed" about all of this.  Clearly the gunners are now much better..... for fighters, so that's all fine and dandy and yeah whilst I'm manoeuvring in combat I'll just hop in the rear seat. Problem solved........ 

[453=Whittle]

I fly online a lot, mostly fighters on the Finnish server. I noticed that gunners were nerfed a few months ago. I used to have to make realistic attacks - building up height then attacking from an angle and pulling away sharply. Attacking any bomber with a gunner felt like a risk. Now they are usually rubbish, and I don't need to pay much attention when attacking.

 

Before their behaviour changed, gunners used to get some ridiculous hits, but at least they were useful to bomber pilots. It seems like the devs over-reacted on this issue.