Spitfire/Hispanos firing solution with short range high deflection

[Youtch]

Dear aces,

 

I love dogfighting with 20mm canons, german, soviet, american, I take it all.

 

There is only one that gives me headache and the poorest gunnery of any plane: the beloved-by-many-called "Hispanos"/spitfire.

 

There is something totally off for me in terms of ballistic, and I cannot manage to shoot straight at short range with high deflection.

Rounds seem to disappear under my nose.

 

As a comparison with a Hurricane in its ShVak configuration, I can shoot without breaking a sweat 7 planes with 9 seconds worth of bullets. Paint a red square of 50cmx50cm square anywhere in the plane and I will hit it

Now give me Spitifre/Hispanos and I would be lucky to knock out 2 planes, mostly not even knowing how, and in most cases I will have to finish them off with .33 bullets.

 

BUT firing with high deflection at short range is a very tough, the bullets fly where I cannot see them, and I am forced to loose visual contact with the plane and try my luck blind, causing to deplete all ammos (the very few of them anyway) in no time and with very little success.

 

I know it takes sometime to adjust and with time I will get better, but I HATE not seeing where I am firing.

 

Am I doing anything wrong? Is there a way to correct vertical alignment to have cannon shootingup and compensate for the weird ballistic?

 

For as much as I love Spitfire, this situation makes it my least favorite plane to dogfigtht.

Any advice from experts spitfire aces, and how they managed to get an hold on Hispanos?

 

Thank you very much in advance,

y.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Youtch
Reworded to focus on spitfire

[Fritz_X]

Apart from recommending to set the convergence for planes with wing mounted guns quite low (250m is my go-to setting), I can only give you one more advice:

 

Keep practising! You may feel like this is not the most helpful advice, since it doesn't provide a quick solution, but you will get used to the characteristics of the guns eventually.

 

You are perfectly right, the ballistics of the Hispanos feel quite different compared to their Russian and German counterparts. And yes, at first I felt like that they can't be used as easy as centerline mounted cannons, too. But once you get the hang on them, you will find out that there's no other gun in the sim that can shreddify enemy planes as fast and reliable as the Hispanos do. If you can hit your target at convergence range, that is.

 

Good luck and happy hunting!

Edited March 21, 2022 by Fritz_X

[Noisemaker]

Agree with Fritz_X above.  Keep your convergence low (I prefer 230m/250 yards as was standard), practise, etc...

 

I'll add one thing:  Try not to use your cannons for high deflection shots, especially when the target is under the nose, but instead light them up with the .303 or .50cal depending on the Spit (Sorry Tempests!), as they are perfect for the high aspect shots where you can fill the engine and canopy with lead.  That way you can save those cannon rounds for when you are perfectly lined up to take off a wing or a tail.

[Youtch]

I have 230m convergence.

 

But still highly frustrating not to be able to use cannon for high deflection, I love high deflection shots!

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Am I doing anything wrong? Is there a way to correct vertical alignment to have cannon shootingup and compensate for the weird ballistic?

 

For as much as I love Spitfire, this Hispano situation is making it my least favorite plane to dogfigtht.

Any advice from experts spitfire aces, and how they managed to get an hold on Hispanos?

 

Thank you very much in advance,

y.

 

Oddly enough, I'm the opposite. I find Russian 20mm annoying to aim in deflection, while Hispanos are pretty straightforward.

 

Maybe this recording will help you:

 

External view:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Cockpit view:

 

Spoiler

 

 

You can see that when I missed, I fired too early. My convergence is 200m.

 

I would guess that either the fire rate or the trajectory is what's throwing your aim off. Are you assuming they have a drooping trajectory, or a flatter one, when you fire?

 

Also, if you're running out of cannon ammo quickly in a Spit IX or XIV, it sounds like you're laying on the trigger far too long. The V, of course, has pretty paltry cannon reserves. I'm not fond of the V for that reason.

[Youtch]

On 3/21/2022 at 9:23 PM, oc2209 said:

Also, if you're running out of cannon ammo quickly in a Spit IX or XIV, it sounds like you're laying on the trigger far too long. The V, of course, has pretty paltry cannon reserves. I'm not fond of the V for that reason.

I shoot normally for maximum 1 second, no longer than that. But missing 90% of the time with Spifire/Hispanos.

 

German and Russian shoot straight and I can follow the rounds and see exactly where they land and make micro adjustment if necessary.

 

I usually always make deflection shots because I very rarely missed, one shot one kill with non-Hispano 20mm, so I tend to avoid shooting when I am on dead 6 because it is less fun and there is a 50% of missing, hence a waste of bullets IMHO.

 

With Spitfire/Hispanos, I feel the shots are dropping below my nose to oblivion, and i wish I would be able correct that adding some vertical convergence, forcing the cannon to shoot up to compensate. I thought this setting existed but I cannot manage to find it.

 

To shoot with high deflection with Spitfire/Hispanos I need to get the ennemy plane totally out of my sight and start praying.

- Pray rounds will meet the plane i don t see, without being able to make any adjustments, and with no idea of which part of the plane I hit, If I hit anything

- Pray that the ennemy plane will not roll/change direction while I don t look at it

This is very frustrating, it feels more like bombing than shooting ?

 

I think the video you shared shows exactly what I meant by missing the shot at 0:28, even though it is not at high deflection, the ennemy plane needs to disappear from your cockpit view to start shooting.

 

Thanks again for all your advices.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Youtch
Reworded to focus on spitfire

[oc2209]

14 minutes ago, Youtch said:

To shoot with high deflection with Hispanos I need to get the ennemy plane totally out of my sight and start praying.

- Pray rounds will meet the plane i don t see, without being able to make any adjustments, and with no idea of which part of the plane I hit, If I hit anything

- Pray that the ennemy plane will not roll/change direction while I don t look at it

 

I could be wrong, but the way you describe it, this feels more like an issue with you and Spitfires, than you and Hispanos.

 

Have you flown the Tempest much? Just to test the guns out?

 

What I mean is that, with the Spitfire's nose length and the shape of the engine, you're pretty much always going to be firing blind at a turning target. It just depends on how far under your nose, a lot or a little.

 

I missed because I pulled more lead than was necessary. A lot of your instinctive understanding of what constitutes too much/too little comes simply from experience with the plane. I don't think this is strictly a Hispano issue.

 

Here's a Spitfire V example that I think is more useful, since it's higher deflection than my previous clip:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Cockpit view:

 

Spoiler

 

 

[oc2209]

Here, this is what I mean about Tempests:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The view under the sight is considerably improved compared to a Spitfire. Regardless of whether this is related to the position of the sight or the nose shape, etc, the point is that a target in a turn disappears for less amount of time, meaning that you can more accurately estimate when to fire. Psychologically speaking, you get less nervous about where the target went.

 

For the record, I spent 76 rounds in that burst. It was a little longer than it needed to be. You'll also notice how readily the 109's wing will snap like a dry twig when hit by even a few 20mm.

[oc2209]

I know I frequently go overboard with videos, but I like having any excuse to test things. It forces me to fly a wide range of planes.

 

I think this clip really shows how flat the Hispano's trajectory is. I also used a Typhoon just for the hell of it. Similar sight-picture as the Tempest.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Interior view:

 

Spoiler

 

 

You can see how close I am to stalling by the constant shaking. I did a flick-stall when the fight started, as I haven't flown the Typhoon lately. Was pulling too hard.

 

Anyway, the Hispano is very fun to use. Taking all the clips into consideration, you can see both its devastating destructive power, and its accuracy. While the Hispano is easier to use in a Tempest/Typhoon than in a Spitfire for reasons I already mentioned, it's still plenty effective in the Spit, provided you can get over the nose-blindness.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

I’m not trying to derail, I actually use a 300-400m range on my spit guns (depending on what mk ) and have no problem laying on the lead… 

 

but I’m sorry, I’m gonna bring up refraction… 

 

with the spits having armoured front glass and at the angle, would the view have been refracted to actually looking into that blind spot under the “nose” to a degree?  Helping with that high angle deflection shot…

I know it’s not modeled in the game for any aircraft.

 

I’m actually curious

I don’t really know 

[CountZero]

6 hours ago, [APAF]VR_Spartan85 said:

I’m not trying to derail, I actually use a 300-400m range on my spit guns (depending on what mk ) and have no problem laying on the lead… 

 

but I’m sorry, I’m gonna bring up refraction… 

 

with the spits having armoured front glass and at the angle, would the view have been refracted to actually looking into that blind spot under the “nose” to a degree?  Helping with that high angle deflection shot…

I know it’s not modeled in the game for any aircraft.

 

I’m actually curious

I don’t really know 

Yes it would, and it would on other airplanes with tick glass on angle. It is made to look better for only one airplane type in game, 190, reducing size of bars and raising gunsight to mitigate problems of not acounting for refraction game dont sim.

[JG27_Mainz]

Hispanos in general have flatter trajectories than German or Russian cannons. It should be noted that the Tempest, unlike the other Hispano-armed aircraft, uses the short-barrel Mk. V version, with slightly different ballistics. 

[Youtch]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:09 PM, oc2209 said:

could be wrong, but the way you describe it, this feels more like an issue with you and Spitfires, than you and Hispanos.

To some extent, yes, indeed it is made quite worst with Spitfire.

 

Tempest is better, probably due to different cannon or plane hood shape.

 

But Hurricane has both ShVak and Hispanos configuration, so ideal to compare both cannons. The difference in precision is night and day, at least for me. With Shvak i can decide to go for motor or cokpit and I never miss. With Hispanos it is roll a die and it may or may not touch the plane, and no clue where it will hit anyway. I know that with practice I would get better.

 

In high deflection shot, trajectory does not feel straight at all, it feels to me as a big arch, maybe because projectile is heavier/slower?

 

I am talking here exclusively about high deflection shots, and at short range.

 

Shooting straight when at 6 on the tail of the plane is a different game and discussion.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Youtch
Reworded for better clarity

[oc2209]

5 hours ago, IV./JG51-P_Mainz said:

Hispanos in general have flatter trajectories than German or Russian cannons. It should be noted that the Tempest, unlike the other Hispano-armed aircraft, uses the short-barrel Mk. V version, with slightly different ballistics. 

 

Good point, forgot about the short ones in the Tempest.

 

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Tempest is better, probably due to different cannon.

 

But Hurricane has both ShVak and Hispanos configuration, so ideal to compare both cannons. The difference in precision is night and day, at least for me. With Shvak i can decide to go for motor or cokpit and I never miss. With Hispanos it is roll a die and it may or may not touch the plane, and no clue where it will hit anyway.

 

In high deflection shot, trajectory does not feel straight at all, it make a big arch, maybe because projectile is heavier/slower?

 

I haven't looked at the Tempest's stats, but superficial knowledge of ballistics tells me that shorter barrel = less muzzle velocity. Meaning that a Tempest's shots should actually drop a little more than the long-barrelled version's.

 

As for ShVAK vs Hispano, the former may well have a flatter trajectory than the latter, but I don't think the difference is as bad as you're describing. The only cannon round that truly arches like an artillery shot is the German 30mm or maybe the American 37mm. Everything else, 20mm on down, is much less pronounced in terms of drooping trajectories. At least, out to common (250m) combat ranges.

[oc2209]

Here's a Yak-9 firing only its cannon:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Interior view:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Whatever the differences in muzzle velocity and shell weight between different nations' versions of the 20mm, they're going to be minor enough that most people will have a hard time discerning the ballistic variations. Again, at short-ish ranges. For longer range firing, I think the Hispano holds up better than the ShVAK; most likely due to higher muzzle velocity.

 

Under 200m, I can't really tell much difference between the ShVAK and Hispano in trajectory performance. Not enough to throw off my aim. I still have to pull just as much lead to get a shot on the target in the Yak as in the British planes.

 

Ultimately, if you can't stand using Hispanos, it's just one of those individual pilot quirks. But the round really does perform well, and it is popular for a reason.

 

If you really want to get to the bottom of your issues with it, you should record yourself firing Hispanos and watch whether you're shooting ahead of or behind your target. And see how much you're missing by.

[Youtch]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:09 PM, oc2209 said:

I could be wrong, but the way you describe it, this feels more like an issue with you and Spitfires, than you and Hispanos.

You could not be more right it is definitly the combination of spitfire/hispanos in short range high deflection shots that is giving me headache.

 

I have reworded the initial thread to put the focus on spitfire

22 hours ago, oc2209 said:

For longer range firing, I think the Hispano holds up better than the ShVAK; most likely due to higher muzzle velocity.

You are right Hispanos are ok at long range my problem is short range.

22 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Under 200m, I can't really tell much difference between the ShVAK and Hispano in trajectory performance.

I realize in high deflection I can shoot as close as 150m, this is where I notice it the most.

 

Any tips on how to shoot blind for high deflection short range shot in a spitfire? Especially how to not loose contact and the ennemy in the process.

 

Thanks againg

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

Any tips on how to shoot blind for high deflection short range shot in a spitfire? Especially how to not loose contact and the ennemy in the process.

 

Not really, sorry. As far as I can tell, there's no way to avoid shooting blind. The Spitfire can easily turn inside a 109, but it's not by such a wide margin that the Spitfire can maintain a shallow deflection angle in pursuit. That would only be possible against, say, a Fw-190 or an equivalent poor turner.

[blitze]

I'm quite fond of the Spit, fly it in Kuban and Rheinland careers.  Set my convergence to 150m for air to air or 200m for ground pounding.

 

Leed with 303's / 50 cals on high deflection shots and when making contact, a quick tap on the 20mm's.  I treat the ammo in the Spit the same as I would VVS planes - sparingly as their isn't much trigger time on those puppies. 

 

Loosing contact, well in a tight turn, you will have to have your nose over the target as you pull the trigger.  Just the nature of the beast.  For 20mm Hispano's and easier tracking in turn fights - I find the Typhoon a good one, followed by the Tempest.  Maybe the longer barrel of the Typhoon gives it greater wallop, I don't know but it is quite a fighter a low alt.

[Fritz_X]

54 minutes ago, blitze said:

For 20mm Hispano's and easier tracking in turn fights - I find the Typhoon a good one, followed by the Tempest.  Maybe the longer barrel of the Typhoon gives it greater wallop, I don't know but it is quite a fighter a low alt.

 

I have to agree with the Typhoon > Tempest arguement when it comes to the effectivity of the guns, but if I'd had to guess I'd say that this results from the lower fire rate of the Typhoon's older Hispanos.

 

If you're an ace of a pilot and a perfect shot the higher fire rate of the Tempest will surely get you the best results, but for an avarage at best pilot like me the lower fire rate of the Typhoon actually feels like an advantage.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Fritz_X

[Youtch]

2 hours ago, Fritz_X said:

If you're an ace of a pilot and a perfect shot the higher fire rate of the Tempest will surely get you the best results, but for an avarage at best pilot like me the lower fire rate of the Typhoon actually feels like an advantage.

Do you mean that you will spend less ammo? Or is it something else?

[Fritz_X]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Do you mean that you will spend less ammo? Or is it something else?

 

Kind of, yes.

 

As stated, the rate of fire on the newer Hispanos on the Tempest is much higher than the Typhoon's older cannons. Even though the Tempest carries more ammo in total than the Typhoon, the trigger time on the former is still shorter, since it burns its' ammo faster because of the much higher fire rate.

 

I for myself find it easier to get a constant stream of hits onto my targets with the slower firing cannons of the Typhoon. But this is just my personal preference.

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Do you mean that you will spend less ammo? Or is it something else?

 

I don't like overly high rates of fire, either. Mainly for ammo conservation, but I think there might be a psychological component as well. You're more likely to take high-risk shots when you aren't afraid of running out of ammo quickly. So with German cannons, you combine a low-ish rate of fire with a high ammo capacity, which encourages aggressive firing. Assuming you aren't a terrible aim, this ultimately means a higher overall probability of hitting an enemy.

 

That's one factor that makes Russian cannons less desirable to me; high rate of fire, low ammo capacity. This tends to make a pilot risk-averse, only firing when a shot is assured. This still won't be remedied in, say, the La-7, because while we'll get an extra cannon, the rounds per gun won't be increasing.

[Youtch]

I agree that german planes are the ideal gun platform to be daring and experimenting.

 

Hurricane Shvak high rate of fire make a one second burst = one kill, almost systematically at short range.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Get on berloga in a spit....practice  practice  practice .

[Hook_Echo]

My Spitfire guns are set at 180 meters.

 

I set my cockpit camera position pretty high. To the point that the dot is washing out. In the Spit IX I have the top of the ring touching the top of the glass. When you are pulling G the reticle will pull down somewhat and become more visible again. This helps a lot as you can pull lead with the bandit still in view just over the cowling.

 

Line up with their trajectory and start pulling more lead. As soon as they go below the nose start shooting. Pull through a little farther, then ease off to see the results.

 

Don't try to maintain the lead where they are below the nose. Line them up, pull the lead, and then ease off the stick. They should be below the nose for at most a second, with you firing for maybe 3/4 of that time.

 

The Spitfires have that crazy elevator authority. Use it. Basically bobbing the nose up and down, up and down, up and down...

 

Notice where the reticle is in the picture. That is pulling decent G as it's starting to grey out. So when I'm pulling hard the reticle is still well above the center of the glass.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I don't think there's anything particularly special here. Hispanos have a great muzzle velocity so they require a bit of a different approach than the slower cannons but its just a matter of slightly adjusting the lead.

 

They are the best cannon for me but that's likely down to practice and familiarity. So... hop in that QMB and do some target practice. It'll make a big difference.

[Youtch]

I agree the practice is what makes the biggest difference between hitting or nit.

 

I came to realize as per the experts' suggestion in this thread that it is the big cowling of the spitfire that makes shooting at short range with high deflection more difficult, when the target vanishes below the nose.