410

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Where do you suppose the 410 will fall in terms of handling in comparison to the other twins? I know the HP and speed figures. How will it compare to the others in terms of turn rate, climb and dive rates/speeds. There are some P-38 and 110 drivers who can really throw those things around the sky.  I remember some 210/410 drivers in modded ‘46 could give you fits as well. I’ll probably never fly one in MP as anything other than a mud mover but I’m hoping to see some guys really use it to it’s full potential.

[PatrickAWlson]

The 110 and 410 always had crappy roll rates.  Something not true of the late war P-38s.  The 110 and 410 were also not as fast as the P-38.  So 110 and 410 drivers will find themselves in the same boat as their real life counterparts.  Slower and less agile than the people trying to kill them.

 

I guess the 410 will be faster than the 110 but still not as fast as the opposition.  It probably will not handle any better than the 110 and might handle worse.

 

The little bit of reading that I have done on the 410 looks like it was used as a raider and a bomber killer when our planes could not escort the B-17s. It seemed to do pretty well in those roles.  Once it faced proper fighter opposition it got slaughtered.

 

How will it do online?  Probably a little better than the 410.  Brilliant insight, I know   

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I guess the 410 will be faster than the 110 but still not as fast as the opposition.  It probably will not handle any better than the 110 and might handle worse.

 

It should handle worse than the 110. In virtually all maneuvers.

 

But at least its rear guns have a nastier sting than the 110's. Maybe that'll compensate for its worse maneuverability, maybe not.

[ShamrockOneFive]

The Me210 had a terrible time with all sorts of maneuvers and the Me410 sought to redress a lot of them. It'll be interesting where on the scale it falls versus the Bf110G-2 which is, for a German twin, excellent with good handling attributes and ample power. I think that aircraft surprises people especially if they are used to fighting the lesser powered E-2. How the Me410 fits into this should be interesting too and I suspect a chunk of that will be what its armed with at the time. Default guns? With a 20mm gunpod? Bombs? Etc.

 

I expect to use the 410 as do the 110 - fast strike missions. So here it may benefit from the internal bomb bay enabling a faster run-in. I'm not expecting to fight fighters 1v1 and win in any sort of duel.

[Kurfurst]

I would presume handling will suffer compared to the 110. The 410 has higher wingloading, and was meant to be a fast bomber first and heavy fighter second.

 

What will be nasty about it is the speed - it has a very fast cruising speed meaning that intercepting the thing will be hard in the first place. It also has a good diving sight, lots of lots of armor covering all vital areas, and nasty rear guns in the back with no practically exploitable blind zones.

 

Its going to be wonderful strike aircraft, but not a dogfighter.

[Avimimus]

I'm anticipating poor roll rates, and bad stall characteristics. That said, the extra power might make for an improvement overall.

 

Does anyone know how it was as a gun platform?

[CUJO_1970]

One of the leading P-38 Aces in the ETO James Morris in July 7, 1944 was shot down in a dogfight with a 410 over Leipzig so it's not completely helpless ?.

 

It will have a high cruising speed and a good (for a twin) 388 mph or more top speed and will have no problem flying well over 400 mph in a shallow dive. It has very powerful 603 engines so a good acceleration and it reportedly had a very fast dive speed...I read one account of a Typhoon pilot blacking out in a high-speed dive going after a 410, and also a P-61 Black Widow that suffered structural damage while trying to catch a 410 in a dive. (It got left in the dust)

 

Slow roll rate, with a worse turn rate than the 110 I would guess, depending on loadouts, of which there are many. Hellacious firepower.

 

Remember, it's really a 1943 aircraft...it would be hell on wheels in 1943 as a bomber destroyer and an intruder but not so much as a dog fighter. (Yes, you are going to have folks "get good" in it just like they did with 110 but those folks will be few and far between most likely).

[[CPT]Crunch]

I don't have fear of any model 110, now two of them working together as a team is a whole other ballgame.  If they show they know what they're doing on the merge, I'll just keep pushing on if all alone and couldn't get a crippling hit on one of them the first pass.  So it too might do well in packs.

[Avimimus]

14 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Slow roll rate, with a worse turn rate than the 110 I would guess, depending on loadouts, of which there are many. Hellacious firepower.

 

If I recall correctly, the Bf-110 could out-turn the Bf-109 at some altitudes and airspeeds... but it was a big target and slow to enter/exit a turn.

 

On paper these aircraft all look good though. It'll be interesting to see. Honestly, I'm mainly looking forward to it as a more survivable successor to the Ju-88... worse bomb-load, but faster and smaller - and with a decent tail-sting.

[ShamrockOneFive]

9 hours ago, Avimimus said:

On paper these aircraft all look good though. It'll be interesting to see. Honestly, I'm mainly looking forward to it as a more survivable successor to the Ju-88... worse bomb-load, but faster and smaller - and with a decent tail-sting.

Yeah I think that's a better way of looking at the Me410. At least that's part of what the Luftwaffe wanted from it.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

I think the stall/spin on the 410 is going to be much less forgiving than the 110. The advantage the 110 has in the stall/spin is, the engine thrust lines go right back to the DUAL rudders, thus maintaining at least some rudder authority after the airplane snaps and begins to spin. This makes it easy for skilled 110 drivers to instantly snap spin into an inverted attitude, stop the spin, and begin a vertical dive almost instantly. Even in very high alpha maneuvers it maintains enough rudder authority to keep guns on target in the yaw axis.

 

The 410 only has one vertical stab/rudder that isn't within the thrust line of either engine, thus having all the rudder authority dependent on forward airspeed alone. I think stalls/spins in the 410 are not going to be for the faint of heart.

 

But we shall see......

Edited March 14, 2022 by =EXPEND=CG_Justin

[Denum]

Should be better then the 110 but it's a P-38 snack outside of incompetent pilots. 

 

 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

11 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

I don't have fear of any model 110, now two of them working together as a team is a whole other ballgame.  If they show they know what they're doing on the merge, I'll just keep pushing on if all alone and couldn't get a crippling hit on one of them the first pass.  So it too might do well in packs.

This....

 

I've been in a JU88 a good few times where I know I could get amazing shots on fighters busy in a dogfight with another fighter. I think the 410 is going to be much like a fw190..... poor low speed handling and a nightmare if you are jumped on your own......but put a few of them together and you'll have quite a fearsome adversary. Can't wait.

[CountZero]

Atleast it has good rear gunners and speed will help, on the other hand mosquito will be eaten alive online ?

[ZachariasX]

22 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Atleast it has good rear gunners and speed will help, on the other hand mosquito will be eaten alive online ?

Actually, in term of handling the Mosquito is more aerobatic than the Me-410. The 410 is in many ways an awful aircraft to fly.

[Asgar]

18 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Actually, in term of handling the Mosquito is more aerobatic than the Me-410. The 410 is in many ways an awful aircraft to fly.

Pls, enlighten us with your experience in flying this extremely rare WWII aircraft xD 

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

Actually, in term of handling the Mosquito is more aerobatic than the Me-410. The 410 is in many ways an awful aircraft to fly.

410 have good rear gunners, player cant just sit on it 6 and shoot with no care, on the other hand mosquit dont have rear gunners when you get behined it its over. I doubt 410 will be so bad as some make it be. 410 here in MP will have benefit of not having to fly in historical seting that made it look like fail airplane, and on other side mosquito will suffer from not being able to fly in historical settings that made it dangerous.

[Ribbon]

It would be cool if Me410 release get delayed till DD-410! ??

[Asgar]

5 minutes ago, =VARP=Ribbon said:

It would be cool if Me410 release get delayed till DD-410! ??

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

Not seeing anything in a rough internet search or one of my aircraft books that mentions the design, aiming and combat results of the rear guns as being “good” or successful in deterring allied fighters.

 

How would the gunner maintain any semblance of accuracy in defensive maneuvers with this setup? The field of fire is extremely limited in any banking or rolling turns. 
 

We’ll see how the defensive guns manned by AI play out within the game when it’s released of course.
I just don’t see how that configuration would be anything but ineffective much less with a human gunner unless the 410 was flying extremely level and stable.

 

Color me confused as to the comments or general notion that this aircraft would have a “good” gunner.

 

 

 

[Yogiflight]

16 minutes ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

Color me confused as to the comments or general notion that this aircraft would have a “good” gunner.

I think what was meant is there are rarely any blind spots for the rear machineguns, compared to the guns of the 110, which has the whole lower area as a big blind spot.

[Denum]

6 hours ago, CountZero said:

Atleast it has good rear gunners and speed will help, on the other hand mosquito will be eaten alive online ?

Yeah it really is a maximum hit and run plane 

 

I think any attempts at dog fighting are going to end real bad

 

[Avimimus]

30 minutes ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

How would the gunner maintain any semblance of accuracy in defensive maneuvers with this setup? The field of fire is extremely limited in any banking or rolling turns.

 

The guns can actually deflect a long way to each side - it is just that only one of the guns will fire. 

 

Each gun has a -3 to +48 degrees field of fire in azimuth, and 72 degrees elevation and depression. So its field of fire is quite a bit larger than most turrets.

 

The mechanical nature of the guns probably makes them less likely to be impacted by gee forces and airflow as well.

 

So, with the caveat that most of the time one will only be firing with one of the two guns, it should actually be better at what you are describing.

[oc2209]

3 hours ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

Color me confused as to the comments or general notion that this aircraft would have a “good” gunner.

 

I don't really think the barbette design was substantially more effective than a conventional defensive gun mounting; but that's not my point in this case.

 

The advantage of the 410's gunner over the 110's, eliminating all other variables, is simply that it's firing 13mm and not 7.9mm. It should make engine fires and pilot kills more likely, whenever it does hit.

 

Wing hits will also have more aerodynamic impairment from the 13mm HE, as opposed to the utterly worthless 7.9mm when hitting wings.

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

The guns can actually deflect a long way to each side - it is just that only one of the guns will fire. 

 

Each gun has a -3 to +48 degrees field of fire in azimuth, and 72 degrees elevation and depression. So its field of fire is quite a bit larger than most turrets.

 

The mechanical nature of the guns probably makes them less likely to be impacted by gee forces and airflow as well.

 

So, with the caveat that most of the time one will only be firing with one of the two guns, it should actually be better at what you are describing.

 

Well on paper I'm sure the designers thought they were creating a good field of fire. 

However, perhaps due to the configuration and mechanics involved with attempting to rotate the pods and staying on target as the aircraft is undergoing defensive maneuvering it failed as an effective defense. I don't know.

 

What I do know is that historically Me 410 units were withdrawn during the summer of 1944 due to losses from Reich Defense duties and production phased out with the remaining 410's in service flying on reconnaissance duties.

 

And while I appreciate the technical data on the weapons field of fire. Not seeing anything that mentions the design, aiming and combat results of the rear guns as being successful in deterring allied fighters.

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

The advantage of the 410's gunner over the 110's, eliminating all other variables, is simply that it's firing 13mm and not 7.9mm. It should make engine fires and pilot kills more likely, whenever it does hit.

 

No doubt.

And I can see that the design itself could be effective in certain circumstances and set ups.

 

As mentioned, it will be interesting to see how these defensive guns manned by AI play out within the game.

It's an interesting aircraft and I'll certainly be taking it out for a spin.

 

 

 

[oc2209]

48 minutes ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

 

As mentioned, it will be interesting to see how these defensive guns manned by AI play out within the game.

It's an interesting aircraft and I'll certainly be taking it out for a spin.

 

 

Agreed. I'm not expecting great things of the design, but that won't stop me from both flying it and attacking it many, many times in QMB; simply because of its unusual features.

 

I'm not really a fan of twin engine planes in general. Unless I could get some Japanese ones, which, supposedly, handled almost as well as single-engine planes. Unfortunately, said Japanese planes had low top-speeds. Except for the Dinah, which still wasn't stellar.

 

This is my dream right here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Ki-83

 

Alas, even with a Pacific DLC, it'll never become a reality.

 

*Edit: just checking, and actually the British Hornet would probably be better than the Ki-83. Oh well. Still too late to be in the sim.

Edited March 14, 2022 by oc2209

[ZachariasX]

10 hours ago, Asgar said:

Pls, enlighten us with your experience in flying this extremely rare WWII aircraft xD 

Not my experience, but Eric Brown was rather specific in his detailed description of flying that aircraft. He deems it a fast aircraft that suffers a lot from handling qualities with razor thin safety margins also for instance regarding engine failures. He has an article on that plane in his book „Wings of the Luftwaffe“.

 

Taken together, it is an aircraft that came too late for what it should have done and it‘s hanling qualities made it a lesser choice for anything than hit and run. And for that the Germans soon had far better solutions.

 

We‘ll see what the rear gunner can do in the game. In the game, this makes the Peshka quiet a handful. If it works like that, we get ourselves an über-Peshka in the game. I‘m certainly looking forward to it.

[CUJO_1970]

Mosquito was superb at long range intruder missions, because it had a high top speed and a high cruising speed. With a large supply of internal fuel it could cruise fast for a longer duration than a S/E fighter.

 

Not sure how that's going to translate to the sim...I see Mosquito and 410 flying very similar intruder roles once released. Get in fast, blow stuff up, get out fast.

 

Historically the 410 was tasked with doing something no T/E piston engine aircraft could have ever pulled off, including the Mosquito.

 

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

17 hours ago, CountZero said:

410 here in MP will have benefit of not having to fly in historical seting that made it look like fail airplane, and on other side mosquito will suffer from not being able to fly in historical settings that made it dangerous.

 

I think Mr. Count is spot on with this remark. Without the historical constraints...who knows what this thing will be capable of online. Personally, I think it's going to reduce Mossies to matchsticks.

 

As for the gunner firing only one gun at a time, well that's fine by me. Having flown the 110 E-2 with its single 7.9mm, Ive had reasonable success in the past with both AI and human gunners (aside from it's WOEFULLY small magazines), and only marginally better with the twin guns on G-2, so neither are completely impotent.

 

I think the extra wallop of the 13mm, along with the much larger field of fire, is going to make enemy players either deeply contemplate, or deeply regret lingering too long behind it.

 

Again....we shall see!

Edited March 15, 2022 by =EXPEND=CG_Justin

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, =EXPEND=CG_Justin said:

Personally, I think it's going to reduce Mossies to matchsticks.

Both aircraft have about the same power, speed and dimensions. Yet the Mosquito has a considerably lower wing loading. The empty weight is also a ton lower, meaning on online servers you probably can even fly the Mosquito at lower weight than the 410. The Mosquito has four Hispanos (plus the four tickling devices), the best guns in the game. It's gonna make instant confetti of everything in its sights and funny rear gunners are not gonna change much about that. On top of that, the Mosquito it should be easier to fly.

 

I'll take the Mossie anytime against the 410. The only upside I see in the 410 is that I'd expect it to be able to run away from the Mossie down on the deck, while using the funny gunner that still hast to look through that large vertical stabylo to take aim at anything on his dead six. But if the 410 starts to turn, an added 25% wing loading and 15% higher weight will end that try soon, span loading not being that different among the two. This without even taking control issues into consideration.

 

Yes, the 410 can run. Even that quickly that in dives that the parallel bar dive brakes were very welcome to keep it from overspeeding (Vne 750 km/h), the engine from overrevving, and the rads from overcooling. Eric Brown summed it up: "A knife-edge aircraft to fly. It was too closely related to the disasterous ME 210 to ever flourish." And he deemed "the poor maneuvrability" as the planes Achilles heel.

 

But as said, I'm looking forward to it in the game. I would guess it will be a very popular strike aircraft where the Arado is not available.

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

It's not a coincidence that Messerschmitt rhymes with....

[[CPT]Crunch]

We'll see how well its instrumentation is set up for poor weather, which we now have.  Might do very well as an attacker in poor weather and night realms.  Shame the AI doesn't work well with poor weather for the single player crowd.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

9 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Both aircraft have about the same power, speed and dimensions. Yet the Mosquito has a considerably lower wing loading. The empty weight is also a ton lower, meaning on online servers you probably can even fly the Mosquito at lower weight than the 410. The Mosquito has four Hispanos (plus the four tickling devices), the best guns in the game. It's gonna make instant confetti of everything in its sights and funny rear gunners are not gonna change much about that. On top of that, the Mosquito it should be easier to fly.

The Mossie will also be a good bit faster at low altitude, iirc the Me 410 top speed at max power at sea level sits around 500-510 km/h, while the FB Mk VI does around 540 km/h with +18 boost, and around 560-570 km/h with +25 boost. I guess better climb rate too specially with +25 boost as it gives an engine power around the 1900-1800 HP per engine in a lighter airframe.
 

[thrila]

I think those figures may be with with drop tanks. Clean, the Mossie with merlin 25s will do about 340 mph at +18 boost and 360 mph at +25 boost at sea level.

 

 

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

19 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

The Mosquito has four Hispanos (plus the four tickling devices), the best guns in the game.

 

Me 410: *Laughs in BK-5*

 

(Provided we get it as an optional modification of course )

 

In all seriousness, you did make some great points though.

 

Cheers!

 

[Asgar]

20 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

The Mosquito has four Hispanos (plus the four tickling devices), the best guns in the game.

Still don’t understand why those things do so much more damage than German cannons with mineshells

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

4 hours ago, Asgar said:

Still don’t understand why those things do so much more damage than German cannons with mineshells

 

It's been argued that the higher muzzle velocity of the Hispano is what makes the difference. I'm not sure of the explosive payload difference between the shells, but I'm sure of our "experts" here could shine some light on that subject which may go in favor of the Hispano as well. But we are going down a rabbit hole and in danger of derailing the OP.

 

Either way, I feel I wrecked MUCH faster by the Hispano rather than the MG 151s.

[Yogiflight]

Flying on German side, I am pretty sure, I was more often shot down by MG151/20, than Hispanos.

[Kurfurst]

Me 410 fields of fire for the rear 13 mm guns.

[Yogiflight]

The problem will be the blind spot of the horizontal stabilizer, which is positioned not very much higher than the MG 131s.