Developer Diary 311 - Discussion

[JG5_Schuck]

1 hour ago, ACG_Pike said:

 the unrealistic behavior of the aircraft in the wake of the propeller and the possibility of "hovering on the propeller". 

Hmmmm does this mean prop hanging?
I see a lot of fighter planes hanging in mid air for several seconds, and not just the 109/Axis.
It applies to all, i always thought it was a limitation of the game in able to produce the effects of gravity effectively..... 
As quite clearly this would be a difficult think to achieve considering the complexities of modeling it correctly at different altitudes etc..
As long as it is applied equally to all aircraft  i'm fine with it!

[Asgar]

1 hour ago, III./SG77-S_Falke said:

OK... This is all well and good.  But what about tuning up my gunners in the Ju87 and Me110.  Otto hasn't had a "confirmed kill" in months and is complaining about not getting a well deserved raise!

If he doesn’t hit anything, why would he deserve a raise? ?

[oc2209]

Dev diary quote:

 

Quote

The goal was to be more accurate overall, so in some cases speeds may be bit lower at sea level, but higher at rated altitudes and climb-rate may be a bit slower. But in some cases, turns may be quicker, but acceleration a little slower.

 

I don't really care about prop-hanging, since the opportunities to do it are infrequent, and it's stupidly suicidal to try it unless you're in a 1v1 scenario. Which in career mode, practically never happens. If the AI's getting an accuracy boost, then it'd be even dumber to try it now.

 

However, the changes to acceleration could be rather critical, as well as climb rate. These will be much more important than anything to do with prop hanging.

 

The bit about faster turning is intriguing.

 

This will be... interesting... to test thoroughly.

Edited March 11, 2022 by oc2209

[Roland_HUNter]

"The goal was to be more accurate overall, so in some cases speeds may be bit lower at sea level, but higher at rated altitudes and climb-rate may be a bit slower. But in some cases, turns may be quicker, but acceleration a little slower. "

Sonds like:
It can turn better but the plane will be slower...hmmmm "balance"?

I hope the Yak1 (earliest) will not catch the 109s(f4) on deck....

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Whoa, just realized… dev diary 311… on 3/11 …. 2022 has three 2’s and 22 divided by 2 is 11…..

Awe man… imagine I wrote this at 3:11pm!!?

losing my brain! 

[oc2209]

12 minutes ago, [APAF]VR_Spartan85 said:

Whoa, just realized… dev diary 311… on 3/11 …. 2022 has three 2’s and 22 divided by 2 is 11…..

Awe man… imagine I wrote this at 3:11pm!!?

losing my brain! 

 

Just say 'no' to drugs, kids.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

but really.. excited for new sky tech!!!

[Irishratticus72]

20 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Just say 'no' to drugs, kids.

Don't be so hasty there, chap. 

[=FEW=Hauggy]

Good news! What I'm puzzled about about is the aileron "clamping" part.

The Churchill looks incredible, given that it has a new machinegun will we get some different light machinegun sound or is it going to be that generic one?

I do hope there are plans for another tank expansion, the quality is surprizingly high exept for some minor things. I need my late war Soviet tanks?

 

[Denum]

2 hours ago, JG5_Schuck said:

Hmmmm does this mean prop hanging?
I see a lot of fighter planes hanging in mid air for several seconds, and not just the 109/Axis.
It applies to all, i always thought it was a limitation of the game in able to produce the effects of gravity effectively..... 
As quite clearly this would be a difficult think to achieve considering the complexities of modeling it correctly at different altitudes etc..
As long as it is applied equally to all aircraft  i'm fine with it!

Even after the change the 109s will still be able to do it, it's the level of control retained while doing so that's the issue. 

 

They can currently pull AoA from below stall speeds and pop a shot off that's not possible in other aircraft. The Jug, 51 just slide out of the sky. The spitfires you can ride the stall like they referenced in any books but you're just as likely to tuck the front into a inverted spin. 

 

 

I'm excited for the change. The 109s retained way to much E after certain maneuvers and it'll be nice to actually BnZ them without them catching up like it's nothing. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Denum

[Bert_Foster]

"climb-rate may be a bit slower. But in some cases, turns may be quicker, but acceleration a little slower."

 

Am I interpreting this correctly.... Climb rate,acceleration go down but sustained turn performance gets better ???

[ATAG_SKUD]

I'm not sure I like the idea of using captured aircraft test data. Unless there is a gaping hole in the producing country's data and the captured data fits the gap in a reasonable way. I would expect captured aircraft were captured because they were unserviceable or maybe just out of fuel. In either case the capturing side needed to rectify the issues and we would expect those rectifications to be less optimal than factory tests considering that the condition of the captured aircraft, the state of the airframe and engine would be expected to vary widely.

Is it just German planes that get tweaked according to Soviet data or do lend-lease types like the Spitfire or P-39 also get tweaked? I'm sure the USSR tested them thoroughly as well and  I would be surprised to find that data was not available.

Each aircraft should be modeled apples to apples either mix of data captured/factory or purely factory unless a data gap needs to be filled.

skud

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by ATAG_SKUD

[ZachariasX]

New planes in a new sky! That is something! Thanks Jason and my regards to the team! 

[E69_geramos109]

41 minutes ago, ATAG_SKUD said:

I'm not sure I like the idea of using captured aircraft test data. Unless there is a gaping hole in the producing country's data and the captured data fits the gap in a reasonable way. I would expect captured aircraft were captured because they were unserviceable or maybe just out of fuel. In either case the capturing side needed to rectify the issues and we would expect those rectifications to be less optimal than factory tests considering that the condition of the captured aircraft, the state of the airframe and engine would be expected to vary widely.

Is it just German planes that get tweaked according to Soviet data or do lend-lease types like the Spitfire or P-39 also get tweaked? I'm sure the USSR tested them thoroughly as well and  I would be surprised to find that data was not available.

Each aircraft should be modeled apples to apples either mix of data captured/factory or purely factory unless a data gap needs to be filled.

skud

 

Captured plane data is really tricky unless you are able to know the exact conditions and the data. Fuel, lubricants, damage of the airframe and repairs needed to make the plane again able to fly etc. Everything affects performance. 

This famous reverence test used everywhere from a G2R6 soviet capture is with repairs in the tail moving the Center of balance etc. Not sure what test they were using but I hope they are able to interpret correctly those test. Some of the climb performance test in the german side for example were done at 50% radiator manual setup so the real performance would be higher etc. I hope they went really in to those details 

Edited March 11, 2022 by E69_geramos109

[ITAF_Gerry_Lil_Rocket]

I'm wondering about game's future when all players gonna play allied planes because so outperforming.....and I totally disagree with the "supreme urgency" to correcting Bf 109 behaviour.....so definitely less climb capability (the only way bf 109 can play sometimes in advantage).... nothing to say or "correcting behaviour" on Tempest? 

Edited March 11, 2022 by ITAF_Gerry_Lil_Rocket

[BubiHUN]

Balance issues...

Nerfing axis planes to the ground as always... Thought fixing the prop hanging of planes was an engine limiation... Because Spitfires are capable of helicoptering, lagg, lavochkins, B and D too, even migs and I16. 

But no, looks like you guys are making War Thunder from this game. 

Nerfing Axis armament, and planes to the stone age. 

Thank you! 

[Sitaro]

It is awesome to see some long discussed issues with the game acknowledged and addressed. Thank you very much for taking the time to look into them. Great work

[DBFlyguy]

IL-2 Forum: "We want the most realistic WWII airplane sim possible"

 

Also IL-2 Forum: "Don't you dare touch my favorite WWII airplane and make it more realistic"

 

 

And what Jason is probably thinking in his office right now about the forums....

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by DBFlyguy

[[DBS]TH0R]

Very interesting. Can't wait for the new sky tech.

[Jade_Monkey]

26 minutes ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

Balance issues...

Nerfing axis planes to the ground as always... Thought fixing the prop hanging of planes was an engine limiation... Because Spitfires are capable of helicoptering, lagg, lavochkins, B and D too, even migs and I16. 

But no, looks like you guys are making War Thunder from this game. 

Nerfing Axis armament, and planes to the stone age. 

Thank you! 

 

You haven't even played the patch. Wtf are you going on about?

[Denum]

6 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

IL-2 Forum: "We want the most realistic WWII airplane sim possible"

 

Also IL-2 Forum: "Don't you dare touch my favorite WWII airplane and make it more realistic"

 

 

And what Jason is probably thinking in his office right now about the forums....

 

 

I'm sure Jason hasn't peeked in here after posting to keep his blood pressure in check. 

 

?

 

I can see it for sale on shelves now

 

iL2 Sturmovik salt 

 

harvested quarterly from our forum!

 

 

 

 

[IckyATLAS]

Excellent news. However  those fuel circuits and drop tanks seem to be a no easy task. Let's hope theyy get it done for the next update, for the Esater egg.

[Roland_HUNter]

 

17 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

IL-2 Forum: "We want the most realistic WWII airplane sim possible"

 

Also IL-2 Forum: "Don't you dare touch my favorite WWII airplane and make it more realistic"

 

 

And what Jason is probably thinking in his office right now about the forums....

 

Yeah....are you on drugs my boi?
Remember when the Tempest was released and it was broken as f*ck?
It could outturn, out acc everything....after the released in the next 2-3 months:
opsy daizy the tempest is broken..they changed the FM, and now the Tempest cannot ez outturn a 109.

I have the same feelings on the p-51B at the moment....

[Pikestance]

My impression is that changes would be minimal tweaks. I would think it wold be ill-advise to abandon climbing out of trouble or resorting to turn fighting based on what I've read.  

[Bilbo_Baggins]

Quote

- On all Bf-109 aircraft (except for the E-7) the effectiveness of the ailerons at high speeds has been changed (increased) (the "clamping" of the ailerons has been reduced at speeds over 400 km/h)

 

Great to see the BF109 aileron fixes. Never understood why the roll performance is so bad on these airframes in-game. Just looking at airshow footage you can see those machines have way better aileron response and roll rate compared to what we have in game. 

 

Cheers!

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Glad to hear that fuel system enhancements are reaching the end, and Hopefully the devs will follow through on thier commitment to address the wing strength issues in FC after the fuel system stuff has been completed..

 

Not easy stuff I'm sure  and looking forward to this next (SOPWITH TRIPLANE ?) update..

Edited March 11, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[-250H-Ursus_]

5 hours ago, Enigma89 said:

Are there any plans to expand the prop behavior investigation to other planes?

Amen to this. I wish because lots of planes needs a revision. I hope that with time we get anothers updates to Flight Models.

Also there is a lot of comments, which are already complains and patch is not even live, and that is not even the worst i read.

 

Guys. Please... 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by -332FG-Ursus_

[Denum]

32 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

 

Yeah....are you on drugs my boi?
Remember when the Tempest was released and it was broken as f*ck?
It could outturn, out acc everything....after the released in the next 2-3 months:
opsy daizy the tempest is broken..they changed the FM, and now the Tempest cannot ez outturn a 109.

I have the same feelings on the p-51B at the moment....

We've actively said the Tempest is broken, and have a thread trying to get them to fix the CL max. 

 

Because we actually want realistic FMs. 

 

We don't try to gate keep by defending obviously broken stuff? 

*Cough* 

 

 

What exactly is broken on the P51B? Its supposed to be faster then the P51D. If you get it to slow it wants to drop a wing. At speed if the 109 driver is careful you can tire the stang out and it's a free kill. 

[Aurora_Stealth]

I'm fascinated by this week's DD. Excited for the new sky, lighting and sorting out the old gripe with nav lights being visible for miles. Should help stop em being used as a strobe light to attract friendly fighter support online.

 

Gotha looks beautiful with those paint schemes, looking forward to the challenge of flying her though. 

 

The airframe changes for the '109 came as quite a surprise, I'm very curious and quietly optimistic.

 

A flight model efficiency analysis was done a few years back and found quite a variation and inconsistency across many FM' s that didn't make sense.. making for unusual comparisons with other airframes depending on which '109 variant you look at e.g. E-7, F-2, G-4 etc. I assume due to the changing FM standards over the years since the game was launched.

 

This may help set a new baseline for the airframe in terms of overall efficiency. The idea of slightly higher aileron effectiveness at speed makes good sense with the later wing design.. (F model on), it was overall a pretty agile fighter and should roll nicely.

 

Central made a good video a few weeks back highlighting the issue with prop hanging (one case with 109), it looks to me that airflow over the airframe wasn't becoming turbulent/disruptive enough near the stall with prop wash not diminishing the control much. Problem is, this FM issue probably doesn't just affect '109.. but only devs will know for sure.

 

Hopefully the rate of climb and acceleration changes won't be too drastic, perhaps showing a higher variation between lower/higher speeds would make sense.

 

I hope they review the Tempest FM (CLmax) soon as that's a really irritating issue. 

 

Oh and good luck with fuel systems bug fixing, sounds a pig guys!

Edited March 12, 2022 by Aurora_Stealth

[Jason_Williams]

1 hour ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

Balance issues...

Nerfing axis planes to the ground as always... Thought fixing the prop hanging of planes was an engine limiation... Because Spitfires are capable of helicoptering, lagg, lavochkins, B and D too, even migs and I16. 

But no, looks like you guys are making War Thunder from this game. 

Nerfing Axis armament, and planes to the stone age. 

Thank you! 

 

We looked at all the planes and their code and the 109 props had clear, obvious errors and problems. Our engineers took extra time out of their very busy schedules to research and work on this. We only strive to make things more realistic, not to balance things. I've said this for over a decade now. The 109s are still awesome planes. Cant say that about all the Allied planes.

 

Every time we make a change to any FM it's the same people causing trouble on the forum. No surprises here. Nothing we do will ever be good enough.

 

We've looked at all the props and the 109s had the most obvious errors so we fixed them. Something we've been wanting to do for a long time. 

The 109 was not the UBER plane some think it was, especially later in the war. Yes, there were some later mods that boosted it's performance and I hope to model them someday when we can. But generally speaking, Allied planes eventually caught up. Early Soviet and American planes are still inferior to early 109s and I would argue that only the Spitfire was on equal footing with the 109s from the start. I really don't see these changes altering much in the way of gameplay except for people trying to do extreme maneuvers that maybe before you could get away with.  

 

A lot of virtual pilots just like easy kills and want to blame us for their poor piloting and tactics. Such is the world of combat flight-simulators.

 

Jason

[ST_Catchov]

9 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

We looked at all the planes and their code and the 109 props had clear, obvious errors and problems.

 

Did this include FC crates? Like say the Se5a?

[THERION]

12 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

A lot of virtual pilots just like easy kills and want to blame us for their poor piloting and tactics. Such is the world of combat flight-simulators.

 

Exactly, this is something I always observe - I'm not a great virtual pilot either, but maybe I'm more self critical than others. And sometimes I really
wonder how on earth those self proclaimed experts can judge the DM/FM of those old planes of the past by only referring to those different graphs.
It's as if those "experts" among us are all WWII veterans... pure graphs finally don't tell very much about the real performance in combat. A good
pilot, an expert, can beat almost every mediocre pilot in a superior aircraft. As Chuck Yeager once said: "It's the pilot, not the plane".

[newbravado]

I would have thought that pilots would have mentioned the nav light fix more since it's been a topic since the beginning of time.

Anyways, after a hard week at work, the Developer Diary is my most anticipated read on the internet. 

Thanks to the Development Team. 

8 minutes ago, THERION said:

 

Exactly, this is something I always observe - I'm not a great virtual pilot either, but maybe I'm more self critical than others. And sometimes I really
wonder how on earth those self proclaimed experts can judge the DM/FM of those old planes of the past by only referring to those different graphs.
It's as if those "experts" among us are all WWII veterans... pure graphs finally don't tell very much about the real performance in combat. A good
pilot, an expert, can beat almost every mediocre pilot in a superior aircraft. As Chuck Yeager once said: "It's the pilot, not the plane".

Exactly! I play strictly multi-player. The number one Ace on a particular server flew the P-40, which is supposed to be somewhat of a dog.

He turned the P-40 into a killing machine.

Us 109 pilots are going to have to adjust a little. I'm ok with that. Realism is the goal.

[oc2209]

41 minutes ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

This may help set a new baseline for the airframe in terms of overall efficiency. The idea of slightly higher aileron effectiveness at speed makes good sense with the later wing design.. (F model on), it was overall a pretty agile fighter and should roll nicely.

 

What confuses me about that change, however, is that stick forces were supposed to be very high at combat speed.

 

I have an account from a modern warbird pilot who also interviewed WWII German pilots. He says that the aileron is so heavy over 300 knots, that he cannot roll the plane to the right (he's right-handed). He can only roll it to the left, and then with two hands.

 

I have another pilot's account (modern) from the Haynes 109 book, where the pilot compares the E to the G. The E, he describes, has clean and responsive aileron control and roll rate. The G, he calls 'positively pedestrian'.

 

The E was the last good roller.

[Denum]

18 minutes ago, newbravado said:

I would have thought that pilots would have mentioned the nav light fix more since it's been a topic since the beginning of time.

Anyways, after a hard week at work, the Developer Diary is my most anticipated read on the internet. 

Thanks to the Development Team

 

I'm excited for the whole shebang. 

 

Better world lighting just means my cloud surfing nights are just that much prettier. 

 

Thanks Devs.

 

Appreciate your hard work!

 

 

[86th_Buzzi]

20 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

What confuses me about that change, however, is that stick forces were supposed to be very high at combat speed.

 

I have an account from a modern warbird pilot who also interviewed WWII German pilots. He says that the aileron is so heavy over 300 knots, that he cannot roll the plane to the right (he's right-handed). He can only roll it to the left, and then with two hands.

 

I have another pilot's account (modern) from the Haynes 109 book, where the pilot compares the E to the G. The E, he describes, has clean and responsive aileron control and roll rate. The G, he calls 'positively pedestrian'.

 

The E was the last good roller.

 

I've read similar reports. Gotta remember that when they say "improved roll", it dosn't neccesarily mean it won't have a sluggish roll. Just less sluggish than before. We can only wait for the patch to see.

 

Overall I'm looking foward to the improved FM. I hope this means more improvements in the future, for aircraft on all sides. 

[DBFlyguy]

1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

 

 

A lot of virtual pilots just like easy kills and want to blame us for their poor piloting and tactics. Such is the world of combat flight-simulators.

 

Jason

 

[MisterSmith]

The issue of performance has been addressed and clarified by Jason. Any additional remarks regarding balance/nerfing will be dealt with per the forum rules.

[BCI-Nazgul]

The problem with the 109 prop hanging wasn't that it could do it as much as it could do it AND it was possible to control the nose well enough to fire accurately at long range.  In the current state 109s can fire very accurately while hanging on their props.  IRL no prop plane can maintain accurate nose pointing in such a state.

Edited March 12, 2022 by BCI-Nazgul

[QB.Beno]

This Update sounds exciting, goodwork Jason, my game has been un installed for well over a year due to being too busy but this is making me consider re-installing and making time.... The 109 prop hang fix is what gets me excited, spitfire vs 109 I think for me will be much more realistic and easier to gain energy advantage flying in the spit! Will be watching to see people's opinions when patch is released! 

This Update sounds exciting, goodwork Jason, my game has been un installed for well over a year due to being too busy but this is making me consider re-installing and making time.... The 109 prop hang fix is what gets me excited, spitfire vs 109 I think for me will be much more realistic and easier to gain energy advantage flying in the spit! Will be watching to see people's opinions when patch is released!