Any plans for cold war/last gunfighter era?

[Elwood55]

Hello,
I'm sorry if this was already asked, but I feel that IL-2 is the only mature platform able to delivery a stable and dynamic war simulation with a multiplayer experience.

So, it's natural to dream about Mig-15, F-86 .... up to even F-8.

I know that this will require to implement radar/missiles and much more stuff but hey they didn't work that well at that time =] ah!

 

Thank you for anyway reply or spend time here.

 

 

[Jooyz]

I think that between all the WWII theatres that left untouched and all technical / game engine updates, also new features like the drop tanks etc but also by having the name of IL-2 sturmovik ( an emblematique plane of VVS ), the coldwar planes will not be emplemented into this game.
For such planes you should check DCS world.

[[RBRI]Khaela]

Considering the new sky tech  with a curved skybox there might actually be apossibility that this is something that will come down the line. 
Also taking in the 262 and Arado into consideration as the first running jets. 

So I would guess Korea can very much be a possibility within a few years.

[Elwood55]

3 hours ago, [RBRI]Khaela said:

Considering the new sky tech  with a curved skybox there might actually be apossibility that this is something that will come down the line. 
Also taking in the 262 and Arado into consideration as the first running jets. 

So I would guess Korea can very much be a possibility within a few years.

That's true.

Also everything is kind of drive by business, so after some naval/Pacific operations they should really move into the jet era to sell more.

4 hours ago, Jooyz said:

I think that between all the WWII theatres that left untouched and all technical / game engine updates, also new features like the drop tanks etc but also by having the name of IL-2 sturmovik ( an emblematique plane of VVS ), the coldwar planes will not be emplemented into this game.
For such planes you should check DCS world.

Don't think that a name can block anything, in fact you are not only flying il-2 planes.

 

Not going to talk about about DCS here, thank you.

[Avimimus]

4 hours ago, Jooyz said:

For such planes you should check DCS world.

 

Well, DCS is missing a lot of AI opponents required for realistic theatres in this era. It'll take DCS another decade at least (although it looks like RAZBAM's Falklands will have a decent set of AI units in a few years).

 

5 hours ago, Elwood55 said:

I know that this will require to implement radar/missiles and much more stuff but hey they didn't work that well at that time =] ah!

 

True, but with this team they'd want to model a lot of the limitations - which is probably more programming work than simulating these systems working well! My own guestimation is ~1955 for the latest possible date for a module - the avionics just get too complicated by 1956. That said, a 1948-1955 European scenario, Korea are both theoretically possible (and they have mused about Korea). So I could easily see two modules (maybe three if they do the Berlin Airlift and the Korean crisis as two separate European scenarios). Another possibility for a third module would be the Suez crisis, as many of the aircraft used there were older - however it might require adding carriers.

 

I think it is definitely a possibility if they want to keep the series in development past 2030.... There are easily two more Eastern modules possible (1945 East, and Leningrad), as well as probably one Pacific land based scenario (e.g. New Guinea) but they seem limited in terms of references for Japanese aircraft, after that they would be making a competitor to Cliffs of Dover and Tobruk (there are theoretically three or four modules possible for Battle of France/Britain, and the Mediterranean).

 

If it takes them an average of two years per module they'll have exhausted the East in by 2024, and the rest by ~2030. This means that they'd have to do the early jet era - and there are easily at least two models in that. I just hope that they plan ahead of time to do both one or two European modules and Korea - as that would give us a more balanced plane set.

[Goffik]

I'd say a move to the cold war would be unlikely for this particular sim. I think all the things that would need to be implemented to make it happen would just be too much effort for another addon, and also wouldn't be in keeping with the current sim's theme. (Or it's title.)

 

That's not to say that it won't ever happen with this engine and by these devs. Once they've done WWII to death perhaps their next sim will be cold war. But that's the point, I think it would have to be a "new" sim (at least in name), not a continuation of this one.

[Cybermat47]

9 minutes ago, Goffik said:

(Or it's title.)

 

Well, the Il-10 Sturmovik used by the KPAAF in the Korean War and the PLAAF in the First Taiwan Strait Crisis was basically an improved model of Il-2, so it could work.

 

It's not like Sturmoviks are a requirement for this franchise anyway. Just talking about GBS, Battle of Bodenplatte and Battle of Normandy both lack the Il-2 for obvious reasons.

 

Also, I'm no expert on Korean War jets, but they weren't much more advanced than the 262 or 234, were they?

Edited March 10, 2022 by Cybermat47

[Asgar]

I think Korea is more likely than the PTO at this point. 
Jason stated reliable data for Japanese planes is hard to come by.

Han stated in the past he would like to make a Korean war game and data for Korean war US and VVS planes should be much easier to come by

Edited March 10, 2022 by Asgar
typo

[Avimimus]

24 minutes ago, Cybermat47 said:

Also, I'm no expert on Korean War jets, but they weren't much more advanced than the 262 or 234, were they?

 

They are a generation later, with considerable refinements. By the time of the Korean War there are also automatic ranging radars for American gunsights (i.e. the gyroscopic gunsight gets range to target inputted into it automatically by a dedicated radar that just estimates the distance to the object in front). I'm not sure if any aircraft had powered control surfaces - certainly the Venom was already in service in Europe by Korea, but I believe that the first version with powered controls came later. In Europe the Russians were also introducing reheat to some of their fighters by the end of the Korean War era.

 

But - yes - aside from the automatic ranging of the gunsights on some American fighters, most of the code should already exist (including for jet engines and transonic compressibility effects). I suspect the team would still try to improve the jet engine and transonic code a bit though.

 

The problem with Korea is that it is almost entirely American aircraft engaged in ground attack. The exception are some RAAF Meteors (the late F.8 version). The DPRK would have some piston engined fighters, the U-2VS, a few Il-10 (used up at the start of the conflict), and the Mig-15/Mig-15Bis. One could add Chinese Tu-2 and Mig-9 aircraft as they could have been used in the conflict if things had gone differently (and at least a couple of Tu-2 appear to have been shot down at the border).

 

A 1948-1955 European scenario would be more balanced - you get the Vampire and Venom for the British. The Russians get the La-15, Mig-17A, Mig-9, and Il-10M. There were also daylight versions of the Canberra and Il-28 bombers, which were basically using WWII avionics and tactics during this period. There are also late British versions of the  Sabre (F-86/Cl-6 Mk.5 and Mk.6) and the option of the Yak-15 for a 1948 Berlin Airlift scenario. Of course, the American F-86, F-84 etc. from the Korean scenario could also be used in Europe. So it is just a much more varied and richer module (especially if most of the American aircraft are already modelled as part of the Korean War scenario - leaving room for more European fighters).

[Alexmarine]

28 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 One could add Chinese Tu-2 and Mig-9 aircraft as they could have been used in the conflict if things had gone differently (and at least a couple of Tu-2 appear to have been shot down at the border).

 

Chinese Tu-2s conducted day and night operations over Korea Bay Islands helds by UN forces and western Korean Coast escorted by La-9/11.  

[40plus]

I sure hope not

[Voidhunger]

Yes it would be nice

[oc2209]

I would honestly rather have a Pacific WWII DLC--even if that would mean cutting some corners on certain minor details that can't be ascertained--than a 100% perfectly documented Korean DLC.

 

Korea, to me, is dull for a variety of reasons; but foremost is that there is a relative lack of diversity in engineering perspectives.

 

WWII has so many different nations, each with subtly different approaches to their respective design ethos, that it truly offers something for everyone. Pure brawlers (P-47, Fw-190), or pure dogfighters (Spitfire, Zero), or sportscar-esque Italian fighters, or no-frills workhorses (Yak, Lavochkin), and everything in between.

 

It's simply a level of diversity that no other time period in history can match.

 

Another critical factor is the extreme rapidity of aircraft performance advances as the war progressed. It means that early-war feels different from mid-war, which feels different from end-war.

 

It has a depth and breadth of aeronautical complexity that, again, is unrivalled in all history.

 

Everything else, at least to my eyes, pales in comparison.

[Soilworker]

Gotta agree with oc on this one, would definitely prefer a less than historically accurate Japanese aircraft selection in a Pacific scenario than a Korean setting. 

Still, I think I'd take Korea over another Eastern front module. (Nothing wrong with them but we have three and aircraft variety is getting a little limited.) 

[Goffik]

20 hours ago, Cybermat47 said:

Well, the Il-10 Sturmovik used by the KPAAF in the Korean War and the PLAAF in the First Taiwan Strait Crisis was basically an improved model of Il-2, so it could work.

 

Umm... pretty sure this sim is called IL-2 Sturmovik, not IL-10 Sturmovik. So no, from a purely naming point of view, it wouldn't work. But to be honest, that was a very minor point anyway (hence the brackets), compared to the other points I made.

 

To take it further, this game is based on realism, and real events. A venture into the Cold War era would need a large helping of fantasy, since there was no direct, major war between the superpowers during that time. Yes you could do Korea, and perhaps even Vietnam, but the rest would have to be based on short, small-scale conflicts or "what if" scenarios that never happened. I suppose that could work if you go down the Tank Crew route of short, scripted campaigns, but it doesn't make for a compelling career mode. And it doesn't fit well with the what the current sim does.

 

So for me it makes much more sense to start a new series, given how different it would need to be, which could also be specifically marketed as a Cold War sim rather than WWII. That, and it would be a good opportunity to give the entire engine an overhaul, to fix long-standing issues and limitations, as well as prepare if for the whole new level of simulating things like radar, heat seekers, sophisticated jet engines, Mach 1+ flight, etc etc.

[Cybermat47]

1 hour ago, Goffik said:

Yes you could do Korea,

 

I don't think anyone's ever seriously suggested anything else when it comes to Cold War content.

[Asgar]

8 minutes ago, Cybermat47 said:

 

I don't think anyone's ever seriously suggested anything else when it comes to Cold War content.

I don’t think you have bothered to read the thread before responding xD 

[SYN_Mike77]

I'd rather see them go in the opposite direction, Spanish Civil War anyone?  And coming from the other direction, how about WWI 1919?  

[Karl_Marxxx]

How about the American Civil War? We can shoot at each other from tethered balloons. 

[Cybermat47]

6 minutes ago, Asgar said:

I don’t think you have bothered to read the thread before responding xD 

 

I did.

 

Probably should have re-read it before making that reply, though... probably should have gone to bed before 1AM as well 

 

Anyway, Korea is something I can easily see happening. Anything involving supersonic jets or guided missiles, not so much (though I won't pretend to know what the GBS engine is capable of).

 

Personally, though, Korea is about as far as I'd like IL-2 to go. Maybe the Taiwan Straits Crisis too, but I don't know enough about that to know if it would make for a good game.  The Football War's planes could work as well, but that war only lasted 100 hours, so not much point.

 

And we still haven't gotten any Spanish Civil War or 2nd Sino-Japanese War flight sims from any developer ever...

12 minutes ago, SYN_Mike77 said:

I'd rather see them go in the opposite direction, Spanish Civil War anyone?

 

Either way, you end up with WWII aircraft fighting in a civil war (arguable for Korea) between two political factions and their foreign supporters on a peninsular ? 

[Redwo1f]

Among other things, I'd be more concerned about the "NOW" - and whether Normandy and FC2 even gets completed and released at all then what happens afterward, tbf...

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, SYN_Mike77 said:

I'd rather see them go in the opposite direction, Spanish Civil War anyone?  And coming from the other direction, how about WWI 1919?  

 

Yes, that'd probably be the second choice for a scenario if I could pick any. If enough reference material survives (or we lower our standards and let them make-up more details) and if a market could be found for it. I'm sure a good advertising campaign could be made around it - but it'd still be seen as risky in terms of sales (and they really don't advertise the sims that much in the first place). Personally - I'd really love a general interwar sim with an alternate history setting - Dewoitine D.510 as part of an expeditionary force encountering TB-1 etc. The air-combat would be really unique (something between WWI and WWII). I doubt they'd to it though - the market is too uncertain.

 

WWI 1919 would also be fun - there were some interesting aircraft being developed when the war ended. I'd prefer to see them add a couple of slower two-seaters for the 1916 scenario (i.e. every fighter should have a target it can catch) and do the Adriatic/Isonzo first. There are a lot of really fascinating and surprisingly well documented aircraft from that front. So that is my ideal "Flying Circus V".

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Karl_Marxxx said:

How about the American Civil War? We can shoot at each other from tethered balloons. 

 

It would probably sell better than the Spanish Civil War, but still bankrupt the company.

 

 

[IckyATLAS]

I suppose that at this moment in view of the unclear global economic times it is wise to go for an incremental growth that will be the most lucrative and safe way for the company. Improving the existing and adding features and campaigns that can reuse as best as possible the maps improving them and extending them as an example. Staying in Europe or better somewhere in between. The Battle For Berlin or BFB would make a lot of sense. East and West combined. I would welcome such a campaign with a good and rich map. You can reuse everything that was made unitl now for BOK, BOM, BOS, BON, BOBp. That's a dream. Just add some last generation fighters and bombers, add some nice vehicles to populate airfields  and you do not need many, as the majority is already there, and the rest we have it already. Maybe improve the nature, trees and this time go for a B17 as the campaign flagship. 

I would difinitively vote for it and buy it without hesitation.

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by IckyATLAS

[Eisenfaustus]

52 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

It would probably sell better than the Spanish Civil War, but still bankrupt the company.

 

 

Na - unlike pacific or Korea SCW includes the only constant in IL2 planesets and thus the only guaranteed cashmaker: A Bf109!

 

It would sell! 
 

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, Karl_Marxxx said:

How about the American Civil War? We can shoot at each other from tethered balloons. 

 

That's only gonna be fun if the French and German exchange-officers are taking part...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcYmZaiTJTE

[Gambit21]

24 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Na - unlike pacific or Korea SCW includes the only constant in IL2 planesets and thus the only guaranteed cashmaker: A Bf109!

 

It would sell! 
 

 

You’re right - more of exact same Axis adversary after 8 years would sell like hot cakes.

 

You’ll be able to hear wallets slam shut from Siberia.

[=621=Samikatz]

I cannot possibly imagine not being excited to get new airframes of some form, airplanes are just pretty cool like that. The only disappointment I could get would be if it was mostly variants of what we already have a bunch of. It would be pretty mediocre to get Barbarossa or something where it's just the Moscow/Stalingrad planeset but ever so slightly worse, for example. As long as I get to try some new stuff I am happy

[[CPT]Crunch]

Sept 39 thru August 45, nothing more, nothing less.  Anything else is a dilution and drain, way off the rails and out of focus.  If your going to do that, start a new company or get a new partnership, something will always have to given or be flat out abandoned in that kind of major move, there's enough projects already going dragging things down to a crawl with WWI and tanks.

[DD_Arthur]

3 hours ago, Cybermat47 said:

 

I don't think anyone's ever seriously suggested anything else when it comes to Cold War content.

 

Exactly. The Team have repeatedly said they’re not doing any “what if”, fantasy stuff.

[Avimimus]

40 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Sept 39 thru August 45, nothing more, nothing less.  Anything else is a dilution and drain, way off the rails and out of focus.  If your going to do that, start a new company or get a new partnership, something will always have to given or be flat out abandoned in that kind of major move, there's enough projects already going dragging things down to a crawl with WWI and tanks.

 

Ah, but with that attitude they would have stuck to Rise of Flight...

 

...and it is hard to complain about WWI slowing down WWII when the team started off doing WWI  

[Pikestance]

There is far too much content to develop between WW1 and WW2 to bother with anything else. 
 

DCS does a little of everything but nothing if anything. The beauty of IL2 is its commitment to developing a theater of operation and not just a playground to shoot at people. I would hope they realize that more than some here. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by ACG_Pike

[DBFlyguy]

I'd be up for a Korean War release somewhere down the road, Korea is the "forgotten war" in combat sims too unfortunately... But I'd much rather see WWII fleshed out first with the Pacific and/or Italy theatres

[Gambit21]

9 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

I'd be up for a Korean War release somewhere down the road, Korea is the "forgotten war" in combat sims too unfortunately... But I'd much rather see WWII fleshed out first with the Pacific and/or Italy theatres

 

Yep

I think people over-estimate how fun Korea would be. Yeah MiG Alley is cool, (I love the MiG 15) ground attack with the Mustang and Corsair would be fun, but it runs out of depth fairly quickly beyond that. There just isn't a lot of depth to the air war. I'd like it, but down the road as you say.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Yep

I think people over-estimate how fun Korea would be. Yeah MiG Alley is cool, (I love the MiG 15) ground attack with the Mustang and Corsair would be fun, but it runs out of depth fairly quickly beyond that. There just isn't a lot of depth to the air war. I'd like it, but down the road as you say.

 

I agree. Maybe adding forward air-control and more complex coms could flesh out the ground attack - but with Red basically restricted to one plane most of the time... blue ends up only doing ground attack (which is something I really enjoy).

 

The thing I wonder about: How much would a more balanced European scenario from the same era appeal? These aircraft had unresponsive throttles, limited acceleration, and poor handling at high angles of attack and high speeds. Turn fights were usually avoided in favour of conducting ambushes... would people enjoy that?

 

I personally prefer pre-1942 air combat because the weak armaments and lower overall weights/wing-loadings tend to lead to much more aerobatic fights.

[CountZero]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:51 AM, Elwood55 said:

Hello,
I'm sorry if this was already asked, but I feel that IL-2 is the only mature platform able to delivery a stable and dynamic war simulation with a multiplayer experience.

So, it's natural to dream about Mig-15, F-86 .... up to even F-8.

I know that this will require to implement radar/missiles and much more stuff but hey they didn't work that well at that time =] ah!

 

Thank you for anyway reply or spend time here.

 

 

There is 0% chance youll gona get Korea in todays enviroment, first its demanding to make, planset is onesided, and map is to big.

Chances of late war east front are now also minimal, its either Italy(Sicily/Malta)43 but is demanding to make compared to ones we have. some PTO only if they lower their szandards, its 100% another Channel 42/43 era, minimal modification to bon map and familiar airplanes and its RAF/US vs Germans, no new thing to add, and ppl love them 109 and 190s and more spitfire variants ?

[Panzerlang]

Fortresses and Liberators make way more sense. ?

[CountZero]

58 minutes ago, Hetzer-JG51 said:

Fortresses and Liberators make way more sense. ?

LOL you aint gona see thouse as AI, its more of later Spitfire Vs, Spit9c, P-38G, P-51A, Beaufighter,earlyer Typhoon ... 190A2, 190A4, 109G1, 109G5, Ju-87D5, Ju-88A17 as mutch 190/109s as you can fined ?  and then add 1096AS and 109G14AS as collector airplanes, heck add 109E1 /E3 also in the mix, youll fined planty who would pay 20$ for any 109 you can add.

[Avimimus]

On 3/12/2022 at 4:40 AM, CountZero said:

its 100% another Channel 42/43 era, minimal modification to bon map and familiar airplanes and its RAF/US vs Germans, no new thing to add, and ppl love them 109 and 190s and more spitfire variants ?

 

Oooh... Dieppe!

 

P.S. I don't believe you! I suspect it'll be '45 East, Leningrad, BoB, or even a land-based Pacific scenario.... maybe even some type of early Cold War scenario first... but I would personally enjoy a Mustang I (P-51A), Fw-190A4/U18, Bf-109G1, Spit IXc, Early Typhoon, Boston III (i.e. A-20), Do-217E Dieppe scenario. I just don't think it is likely.

[Giggles]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:38 AM, Cybermat47 said:

 

Well, the Il-10 Sturmovik used by the KPAAF in the Korean War and the PLAAF in the First Taiwan Strait Crisis was basically an improved model of Il-2, so it could work.

 

It's not like Sturmoviks are a requirement for this franchise anyway. Just talking about GBS, Battle of Bodenplatte and Battle of Normandy both lack the Il-2 for obvious reasons.

 

Also, I'm no expert on Korean War jets, but they weren't much more advanced than the 262 or 234, were they?

mig 15 is a design descendent, like 2nd generation, of a nazi jet fighter then was canceled in orer to build the 262