Shooting pilots in their chute

[SOB_Looper]

Just want to verify something I and others I fly with did not know. If it is OK to shoot down guys in their chute and when. I was informed by 69theagleye76  after he shot me that it is ok to do so when you think he is spotting for other planes. 

It is true I was looking at my flaming 110 for a minute or 2 dyeing  but our guys never shoot chutes so I was surprised. 

Advise please.

[Cybermat47]

In my experience, it's something that's generally heavily frowned upon at best. There's no point to it on most servers other than deliberately annoying others. Especially as you're wasting ammo and making yourself vulnerable to a bounce.

 

There are some servers where killing a player, including in their parachute, will stop them from spawning back in for a considerable amount of time (if they were going to land in friendly territory), but AFAIK it's still frowned upon.

[Pikestance]

It was frown upon back then and by most here. it is different shooting paratroopers. A shot down pilot is defenseless and already defeated. Paratroopers are assault troops and thus are legitimate targets. However, this would be something ground troops should be engaged in since they are attempting to gain/maintain a tactical advantage. I have noticed that some servers prohibit it. It seems only young gamers think it is cool. Personally the act comes across as vindictive. This is especially true if the server has respawning rules. I do not see the point and denying someone's enjoyment of the game. 

[Raptorattacker]

In generalanswer to the question and not to the individual...

Whatever you think the Community think about it just ask YOURSELVES what you think.

I think that the common thread would be a resounding NO if it were left to these rules of definition.

If you are an individual that answers yourself YES then possibly you're in the wrong place abd mixing with the wrong Community?

 

Just sayin'...

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[Feathered_IV]

It's a dick move.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I'm not sure if my reply got removed or just didn't post.  I'll try again.   

 

If this happened on the Finnish Virtual Pilots server, I'm pretty sure that the rules were added by the admin to say if a pilot is in his chute and out of his plane long enough, then it was allowed.  The reason they changed it from "no killing" was because downed pilots would use comms to spot for their team mates.

 

Each individual server is privately owned by members of the community so, they have their own rules. Be sure to check.  

 

As far as the morality of it...  I'll leave that all to you to discuss.  

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, ACG_Pike said:

Paratroopers are assault troops and thus are legitimate targets.

I tried to shoot down the paratroopers of DC-3s with the SdKfz10/5 in QMB, but it seems they have no DM. I clearly saw my rounds exploding, when hitting the chute, but without any effect.

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

It's a dick move.

Not much more to say about that.

I shot at a 109 crash landing and shot flares non stop.

He asked for it. That was in TAW

At that time shooting parachutes was fair game. Because one could not respond when dead. I still could not get myself to do it, because it is a dick move

[Pikestance]

1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

I'm not sure if my reply got removed or just didn't post.  I'll try again.   

 

If this happened on the Finnish Virtual Pilots server, I'm pretty sure that the rules were added by the admin to say if a pilot is in his chute and out of his plane long enough, then it was allowed.  The reason they changed it from "no killing" was because downed pilots would use comms to spot for their team mates.

 

Each individual server is privately owned by members of the community so, they have their own rules. Be sure to check.  

 

As far as the morality of it...  I'll leave that all to you to discuss.  

 

I think it is a stretch to claim the below quote from the Rules of the Finnish Server to say that you can at any point shoot at chutes. I believe you have to wait till you hit the ground before you can finish the mission. The second rule below seems to refer to ditched pilots. 

 

Quote

 

- Gentleman rules are enforced (no chute shooting, strafing an already downed plane* etc.). No insulting other players.

- It is mandatory for the bailed out / ditched pilot to finish mission ASAP, otherwise you are considered an active combatant* and are free game.

 

 

[56RAF_Roblex]

44 minutes ago, ACG_Pike said:

I think it is a stretch to claim the below quote from the Rules of the Finnish Server to say that you can at any point shoot at chutes. I believe you have to wait till you hit the ground before you can finish the mission. The second rule below seems to refer to ditched pilots. 

 

Quote

 

- Gentleman rules are enforced (no chute shooting, strafing an already downed plane* etc.). No insulting other players.

- It is mandatory for the bailed out / ditched pilot to finish mission ASAP, otherwise you are considered an active combatant* and are free game.

 

 

It is not 100% clear but the quote below seems to confirm that chute killing is allowed on Finnish

 

Quote

 

Appended a new rule:

"- It is mandatory for the bailed out / ditched pilot to finish mission ASAP, otherwise you are considered an active combatant* and are free game."

"The pilot can usually finish mission in 10-15s after bailing out / ditching, so you still have to give the player a chance to finish."

 

Read the full rules in the first post in this thread to get a better context.

 

note: You can hang in your chute or stay in your ditched plane for longer, but then you cannot blame others for shooting at you.

Edited January 20 by LLv34_Untamo 

 

 

On the other hand, the official rules say No chutekilling then go on to say it is allowed (underlining and Bold is my own)

 

Server rules:

• This is a total war server, so basically no rules, so any dirty trick you can imagine, if it helps to defeat the enemy, it's ok
• No teamkilling, this includes ground targets. There's an automatic system in place to detect this, and players will be punished if they TK. If you are a victim of a false positive, give us an email.
• Don't be a dick. No insulting other players. No chutekilling. No strafing an already downed plane. However, chutekilling/strafing a downed plane is allowed if the target does not finish the mission in short order (i.e. stays in the fight looking around and reporting the fight to his team). No ramming/kamikaze on tanks with planes.

 

They have also said eleswhere that they will not penalise players who accidentally hit someone as he bails or accidentally hit them with their aircraft so it sounds like it uis done on a case by case basis if they get a complaint. They will look to see if it looks like an accident that happened in the first few seconds of bailing or if it was someone who had bailed then hung around to tell his friends where the enemies were.

 

I am 99% certain that you do not need to reach the ground to finish the mission; you either bailed over friendly territory and stay alive or you bailed in enemy territory and are considered, by the Finnish server, to be dead.

Edited February 26, 2022 by 56RAF_Roblex

[352ndOscar]

Motivation drives Morality…….

 

This is a game….. there is no motivation.

[Pikestance]

2 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I am pretty sure that some time in the last few weeks one of the Admins commented that if you decide to stay in your chute rather than finish the mission then it is your own fault if someone shoots you.  You do not need to reach the ground to finish the mission; you either bailed over friendly territory and stay alive or you bailed in enemy territory and are considered, by the Finnish server, to be dead.

 

"Dead?" On other servers, you are captured; such as Box, TAW, and WoL. Recently on WoL, I bailed in enemy territory, it said in game that was captured. However, the stats, I am listed as "healthy" and not captured. 

 

Let's say you are shot down on the the front line. You could go either way. If you happen to bail over friendly territory, then exit, then you would be safe. However, if you wait till you hit the ground and the wind takes you into enemy territory, then you would be captured. In this scenario, your actions would be unsporting if you disconnect while still in the air. Then again, anyone who imagine this scenario would not be one of those "nimrods" blabbering in a chute. 

[56RAF_Roblex]

34 minutes ago, ACG_Pike said:

 

Let's say you are shot down on the the front line. You could go either way. If you happen to bail over friendly territory, then exit, then you would be safe. However, if you wait till you hit the ground and the wind takes you into enemy territory, then you would be captured. In this scenario, your actions would be unsporting if you disconnect while still in the air. Then again, anyone who imagine this scenario would not be one of those "nimrods" blabbering in a chute. 

 

One of the servers once had a complicated system where it tried to calculate whether you had escaped based on how far you were from the front lines, whether there was an enemy unit nearby, your health and even the weather conditions.  It was great but I think it overloaded the server and had to be dropped (or maybe the server just died from lack of use?)     

If only there was a mode to get out of your aircraft on the ground or after bailing and find the one empty truck situated in every town and drive back across the lines ?.

Pie-In-The Sky as even with the option to turn into a running person, which will never happen, having empty trucks in every town or village would strain the servers.  Also too many players would resent the flying time wasted getting back.  Personally I would like to see respawn times being affected by how far you are from the nearest front lines so people actually try to RTB instead of bailing at the first opportunity but I know I am in the minority.

 

ps Yes the finish stats count 'Captured' as 'Dead'.

Edited February 26, 2022 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Raptorattacker]

It's ultimately not the Server but the INDIVIDUAL that determines his/her morality.
I know it's a 'game' but surely, morals are involved in every walk of life?...

Edited February 27, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[Nickkyboy99]

Lol it's the eastern front who cares about shooting chutes 

[Pikestance]

3 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

One of the servers once had a complicated system where it tried to calculate whether you had escaped based on how far you were from the front lines, whether there was an enemy unit nearby, your health and even the weather conditions.  It was great but I think it overloaded the server and had to be dropped (or maybe the server just died from lack of use?)     

If only there was a mode to get out of your aircraft on the ground or after bailing and find the one empty truck situated in every town and drive back across the lines ?.

Pie-In-The Sky as even with the option to turn into a running person, which will never happen, having empty trucks in every town or village would strain the servers.  Also too many players would resent the flying time wasted getting back.  Personally I would like to see respawn times being affected by how far you are from the nearest front lines so people actually try to RTB instead of bailing at the first opportunity but I know I am in the minority.

 

ps Yes the finish stats count 'Captured' as 'Dead'.

 

Why would a pilot choosing to bail out early bother you? If you are the cause, then you'll get the credit. if he bails out over his own territory, then he values his own virtual life. It is net positive. 

 

From a virtual life perspective, being captured or Killed in Action is effectually the same thing. What a psychological point of view, being captured means you are still alive as a POW. 

 

Of course these sort of things are foreign to the "gamer." it is just a game. Thus, everything is disposable. ironically, these are the one's that "disconnect" rather than enjoy the total experience. Hubris gets the better of these guys. 

[Gambit21]

9 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

It's a dick move.

 

As it was in real life.

 

It happened more than most people think in the ETO and it was the rule rather than the exception in the Pacific.

 

While it’s ‘rude’ in a flight sim, as I’ve said before anyone who gets distressed about their fake little guy getting ‘killed’ by fake little bullets needs to re-examine his priorities. 

[oc2209]

Based on a lot of pilot accounts I've read, it seems that many are almost relieved when someone they shot down managed to bail out.

 

There's a psychological sense to this. Air combat, unlike many other forms of combat, is very similar to medieval jousting or duelling (either with a sword or a gun). Even in a big, swarming fight, or in a bounce, there's still that 1v1 sensation, even if only momentary.

 

Probably the longer a personal 1v1 dogfight lasts, the more a pilot will 'bond' for lack of a better word, with their opponent and view them as an individual, a worthy combatant, etc.

 

This is different from ground combat in many ways.

 

On the ground, even at close range when you can see your enemy's face, there's an immediate 'flight or fight' adrenaline rush. You dehumanize and depersonalize the enemy. They're a thing that needs to be destroyed before it destroys you. There's no time for moralizing or higher thought processes. It's like a bear or a rabid dog charging at you. You don't wonder why it came to be that way. You just shoot it until it stops moving.

 

In fighter combat, there isn't the same immediate threat. The vast majority of the time, you'll be shooting at an enemy when they can't shoot back at you. That difference alone is important. It doesn't matter if you played air-chess for the last 15 minutes to get into the perfect position to shoot; the point is, when the time comes, you're essentially shooting a man in the back.

 

There is a certain amount of guilt over this necessity, with some pilots. And the recognition that they too could be in the same position at some point; they too could be shot in the back one day.

 

Thus they hope their victim (who, indeed, seems very hapless in his final moments) has at least a small chance of escaping the probably burning and/or disintegrating piece of tin foil he's trapped in.

 

As the victor would hope that, if or when his day comes, he also has a small chance to escape.

 

The peculiarities of air combat allow for that odd bit of empathy. It's roughly analogous to the rules of sea combat, where you at least try to help the survivors of a ship you just sank. Both the sea and the air are places where man can't survive without assistance. To shoot a man in a 'chute is like shooting a life raft to pieces. It is, therefore, a deliberate killing. It's like the difference between manslaughter and premeditated murder.

 

Shooting down a plane, or torpedoing a boat, with a random outcome whether the crew lives or dies: that's manslaughter.

 

Seeing the man survived, then shooting him anyway: that's murder. Or damn near to it.

Edited February 26, 2022 by oc2209

[Gambit21]

 

Pilots shot other pilots in their chute now and then - the end. Not every pilot and I can’t possibly comment on percentages, but as I’ve already said it happened somewhat in the ETO and constantly in the PTO. 

 

The grounds was that a German pilot who was allowed to live might kill 10 men in a B-17 the next day.This played no small part in their “feelings” on the matter which yes, could work either direction. This aspect of the war is largely white-washed out of biographies and such. No pilot wants to say “yes I did it, or so and so did it all the time”

 

I did get get at least one pilot to open up (a bit) about it and that’s all I’ll say regarding that.

 

In any case do not be fooled - it was more prevalent than you think. The PTO was a whole other animal - brutal. 

 

No reason for it in a flight sim, but on the other hand it’s not a real guy either.

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Pilots shot other pilots in their chute now and then - the end. Not every pilot and I can’t possibly comment on percentages, but as I’ve already said it happened somewhat in the ETO and constantly in the PTO. 

 

The grounds was that a German pilot who was allowed to live might kill 10 men in a B-17 the next day.

 

It's still the equivalent of putting a gun to someone's head and pulling the trigger. It's an execution.

 

It's a massively slippery slope that I don't agree with at all. You can say 'but they did it first' or 'but it makes sense, because...', and it still doesn't change what it is.

 

Logic can be used to excuse virtually any behavior. That's why morality and honor exist to counterbalance the dictates of mathematical, soulless, logic.

 

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

No reason for it in a flight sim, but on the other hand it’s not a real guy either.

 

I don't really agree with this argument, because the same could be said about the people doing the 'chute shooting. I mean, who cares if a guy's spotting for a few minutes?

 

Virtual characters are virtual, but ugly attitudes are real.

 

Take, for instance, MMOs where somebody kills you without so much as a word of warning because they feel you're 'stealing their mobs' or otherwise infringing on their turf. For those who never played MMOs, this is the part where you mindlessly run around killing NPCs for experience points; they usually take a few minutes to respawn.

 

Here's the gradation of human behavior:

 

A) Nice people invite you to their group. You all get the same XP, nobody loses anything.

B) Neutral people ignore you and hope you go away; or at least try to avoid confrontation for a while. 

C) Semi-dickish people will very curtly tell you in local chat that you have 5 seconds to leave or they'll kill you.

D) 100% dicks will kill you on sight. Not only that, but they'll do it from ambush.

 

Even if morality can't be associated with behavior in a virtual space, there's basic etiquette.

 

You could say that, for instance, stealing a parking space from someone who's obviously been waiting for the space before you, is not quite immoral, but certainly poor etiquette.

 

Bad gaming behavior is the same. It might be a virtual environment, but it still either pisses you off or makes you feel shitty when it happens to you. Those feelings are real enough. That's why a lot of antisocial personality types enjoy doing it to people in the first place. Hence the birth of 'griefing' in gaming.

Edited February 27, 2022 by oc2209

[Gambit21]

11 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

It's still the equivalent of putting a gun to someone's head and pulling the trigger. It's an execution.

 

It's a massively slippery slope that I don't agree with at all. You can say 'but they did it first' or 'but it makes sense, because...', and it still doesn't change what it is.

 

Logic can be used to excuse virtually any behavior. That's why morality and honor exist to counterbalance the dictates of mathematical, soulless, logic.

 

 

I don't really agree with this argument, because the same could be said about the people doing the 'chute shooting. I mean, who cares if a guy's spotting for a few minutes?

 

Virtual characters are virtual, but ugly attitudes are real.

 

Take, for instance, MMOs where somebody kills you without so much as a word of warning because they feel you're 'stealing their mobs' or otherwise infringing on their turf. For those who never played MMOs, this is the part where you mindlessly run around killing NPCs for experience points; they usually take a few minutes to respawn.

 

Here's the gradation of human behavior:

 

A) Nice people invite you to their group. You all get the same XP, nobody loses anything.

B) Neutral people ignore you and hope you go away; or at least try to avoid confrontation for a while. 

C) Semi-dickish people will very curtly tell you in local chat that you have 5 seconds to leave or they'll kill you.

D) 100% dicks will kill you on sight. Not only that, but they'll do it from ambush.

 

Even if morality can't be associated with behavior in a virtual space, there's basic etiquette.

 

You could say that, for instance, stealing a parking space from someone who's obviously been waiting for the space before you, is not quite immoral, but certainly poor etiquette.

 

Bad gaming behavior is the same. It might be a virtual environment, but it still either pisses you off or makes you feel shitty when it happens to you. Those feelings are real enough. That's why a lot of antisocial personality types enjoy doing it to people in the first place. Hence the birth of 'griefing' in gaming.

 

People are often a-holes. Hop into another plane and/or get on with your day...better yet go walk the dog or something. There’s more important things if you need to get worked up about something.

[oc2209]

4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

People are often a-holes. Hop into another plane and/or get on with your day...better yet go walk the dog or something. There’s more important things if you need to get worked up about something.

 

Sure, but griefers rely on the fact that most people won't react with zen-like indifference.

 

It's more or less the common schoolyard bully mentality, but on the internet. It's a phenomenon that's not going away any time soon.

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Sure, but griefers rely on the fact that most people won't react with zen-like indifference.

 

It's more or less the common schoolyard bully mentality, but on the internet. It's a phenomenon that's not going away any time soon.

 

Although secondary, this is one of the reasons I used to fly only CoOps/Hyerlobby most of the time.

It's easy to keep the ass-hats out, and I'm talking various behaviors, not necessarily chute-killing.

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Although secondary, this is one of the reasons I used to fly only CoOps/Hyerlobby most of the time.

It's easy to keep the ass-hats out, and I'm talking various behaviors, not necessarily chute-killing.

 

I gave up on most forms of multiplayer for similar reasons. Like when you spend 5 minutes loading into a lobby, wait for everyone to pick whatever, match starts, and someone on your team intentionally shoots you and/or your entire team just for 'fun'.

 

Or, more frequently, you end up with people on your team who're incredibly incompetent, and if you don't carry them with an outstanding performance, you'll lose the match.

 

I don't necessarily play games to win with a 'tryhard' attitude, but I do expect a certain level of professionalism from people. If you just want to screw around, go play GTAV online. Some games are meant to be played frivolously. Others aren't.

 

Some might call my attitude 'dour' or 'workmanlike.'

 

They would be correct.

[Drum]

IMO, the point system the server chooses to use is what promotes a lot of the gameplay you experience there.  If you're going to have a 'Top Ten' list for this or that, some people will farm points however they can get them.  The server I fly rewards half a kill (point wise) for each chute you bag.

 

Think about that, please; a server promotes chute kills by rewarding the shooter with points for doing that.  The server also ends your streaks when you virtually bite the big one too, so I'm thinking it's ultimately all about the competition.  They even record your shooting accuracy.  Does anyone know what Erich Hartmann's shooting % was?  Do you care about mine??  Nor do I, that's why you won't see me tracking a flaming plane at pointblank range increasing it.  <G>

 

[Pikestance]

11 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Pilots shot other pilots in their chute now and then - the end. Not every pilot and I can’t possibly comment on percentages, but as I’ve already said it happened somewhat in the ETO and constantly in the PTO. 

 

The grounds was that a German pilot who was allowed to live might kill 10 men in a B-17 the next day.This played no small part in their “feelings” on the matter which yes, could work either direction. This aspect of the war is largely white-washed out of biographies and such. No pilot wants to say “yes I did it, or so and so did it all the time”

 

I did get get at least one pilot to open up (a bit) about it and that’s all I’ll say regarding that.

 

In any case do not be fooled - it was more prevalent than you think. The PTO was a whole other animal - brutal. 

 

No reason for it in a flight sim, but on the other hand it’s not a real guy either.

 

The discussion wasn't on frequency, but how it was viewed. Awhile back when I researched the subject, I never encountered any statistics on the frequency, just anecdotal evidence that it happened. In each case, it was, as I stated, frown upon to say the least. 

 

Some people immerse themselves into a "character" and thus adds more realism to their experience. let's not dismiss it out of hand because of your own indifference. Ultimately, though, you can discuss good character into people

 

1 hour ago, Drum said:

IMO, the point system the server chooses to use is what promotes a lot of the gameplay you experience there.  If you're going to have a 'Top Ten' list for this or that, some people will farm points however they can get them.  The server I fly rewards half a kill (point wise) for each chute you bag.

 

Think about that, please; a server promotes chute kills by rewarding the shooter with points for doing that.  The server also ends your streaks when you virtually bite the big one too, so I'm thinking it's ultimately all about the competition.  They even record your shooting accuracy.  Does anyone know what Erich Hartmann's shooting % was?  Do you care about mine??  Nor do I, that's why you won't see me tracking a flaming plane at pointblank range increasing it.  <G>

 

 

I feel sorry for those people. I never look at any "top 10/5" of anything. I go straight to my logs. 

Like you, accuracy is meaningless except efficiency. The better I shoot the longer I continue flying without having to return to base. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Guess they placed it into the game and made it active for a reason.  Frankly it would bother me more being sent out to shoot up a columns of vehicles, hit buildings, ships, or trains never knowing how many civilians or POW's were being moved in or among them, but nothing disturbs me in a game, there's just nobody in there, so it's all just fun to exercise this skill set. 

 

Pilot in a chute is a known combatant, I wouldn't deliberately go out of my way to target one, but wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if I did, it would be far less disturbing on my consciousness, but everyone is different, besides there's a logical side of your ammo being much to valuable to waste on something that's clearly not a current valid threat. 

 

In game its not polite and don't do it, but if a player deliberately chute shoots one of ours, you bet your @ss I'm going to do everything I can to get them destroyed, even hitting them while bailing or after in a chute.  Chute shooting is like throwing down the gauntlet, the unwritten rules of gaming in a group dictate a response, the online code of warped and humorous honor goes into full effect.  If you take it that serious you should find another activity or seek council.    

 

I'm just glad I've never had to do any of this kind of stuff for real and feel bad for the guys who had to live with the aftermath, that is a reality that would truly suck, and some of them just couldn't.  But in game who really gives a crap, it simply doesn't matter in the overall scheme, not a wink ever lost over a game.  

[Gambit21]

My grandfather took a bullet to the forearm while in his chute. Of course he was landing with the 82nd on Normandy. 

[Ghost666]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

My grandfather took a bullet to the forearm while in his chute. Of course he was landing with the 82nd on Normandy. 

My Grandfather took a bullet through the skin below his chin. Of course he was swimming in Peral Harber 7 Dec 41.

[BCI-Nazgul]

As far as I'm concerned just obey the server rules.   The only reason that people don't like getting shot in their chutes is because it makes their stats look bad.

 

If you think killing pilot in chutes is bad then you might consider the bombing in WW II that was intentionally designed to kill as many non-combatants as possible.   That was done by ALL sides in the war.  Shooting pilots seems pretty tame by comparison.

Edited February 27, 2022 by BCI-Nazgul

[SOB_Looper]

All great information guys but all I want here is a clear understanding of this rule in the Finnish server so we are on the same page. 

I have my  opinion of the pilot who did this to me and was arrogant about it ,  and I am sure he could not care less.

Thanks

 

[Pikestance]

2 hours ago, BCI-Nazgul said:

As far as I'm concerned just obey the server rules.   The only reason that people don't like getting shot in their chutes is because it makes their stats look bad.

 

If you think killing pilot in chutes is bad then you might consider the bombing in WW II that was intentionally designed to kill as many non-combatants as possible.   That was done by ALL sides in the war.  Shooting pilots seems pretty tame by comparison.

 

In every discussion the state watchers have been the chute killers, not the victims. 

The stat don't mean anything. If you want you can keep your own stats you can. 

[Drum]

If the server allows it, then we really can't in all fairness blame those who do it.  I believe the servers are just trying to accommodate everyone by make it as realistic and fun as possible (an impossible task;-), so I don't blame them either.  I agree with SOB_Looper's intent for rules clarity as we all just want to play within the rules.

 

Bailing out as low as possible is the key, possibly you may even lure the bandit into auguring the field you're about to land on.  ?

[SOB_Looper]

I guess my question is not clear. In the Finnish server, What are the rules regarding shooting of flyers in their chute??