51-D WINGS COMIN OFF

[4thFG_Cap_D_Gentile]

Developers where do you get that from? Gently pulling out of a speed dive in the 51-D and both wings snaps off. D-9 or A-8 on my six pulling with me keep their wings.   I never, not that I read everything, stumbled over wings coming off 51's. Please show me where you have it from?

 

 

[Rjel]

4 minutes ago, 4thFG_Cap_D_Gentile said:

Developers where do you get that from? Gently pulling out of a speed dive in the 51-D and both wings snaps off. D-9 or A-8 on my six pulling with me keep their wings.   I never, not that I read everything, stumbled over wings coming off 51's. Please show me where you have it from?

 

 

They did when the P-51D was first put into service because the cam shell doors weren’t staying in position but that was corrected very quickly. 

[357th_KW]

In game it’s occurring when you get some combinations of high G mixed with some roll and/or yaw.  Is it realistic?  Difficult to say.  I think part of the problem is that in real life a small exceedance of the limit would likely result in some deformation and popped rivets, where in game the wing just rips completely off every time.

[Avimimus]

It is pretty tricky - since that kind of structural failure usually leads to no survivors among the crew and often pretty badly damaged wreckage... and sometimes located in enemy territory. The official manuals, design specs, and actual real-life strength of an airframe don't necessarily line up with each other either.

 

The Fw-190 had a reputation for strong wings though (with the spar passing all the way through the fuselage).

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, 4thFG_Cap_D_Gentile said:

Developers where do you get that from? Gently pulling out of a speed dive in the 51-D and both wings snaps off. D-9 or A-8 on my six pulling with me keep their wings.   I never, not that I read everything, stumbled over wings coming off 51's. Please show me where you have it from?

 

 

The only person who's sent me a track of this happening was pulling 12+ G's when the wings snapped. They didn't think they were pulling that hard... but they were. If you have a track file its worth examining.

[Raptorattacker]

2 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

The only person who's sent me a track of this happening was pulling 12+ G's when the wings snapped. They didn't think they were pulling that hard... but they were. If you have a track file its worth examining.

Diplomatic to a fault!!

[[CPT]Crunch]

I'd first suspect the trim, it's critical at the high end, mustangs get squirrely in a hurry out of trim, they just feel like they want to bend and break on you.

[CUJO_1970]

Any fighter aircraft of the era could run into problems most likely if you treat it wrong in a high speed dive.

 

The P-51 experienced structural failures to varying degrees throughout the war. These failures persisted in various forms after the uplock issue was apparently corrected and lead to the P-51D being first redlined at 505 mph and then further reduced to 450 mph in the appendix to the P-51 POH. This one issued dated May 8th 1945:

 

 

 

Structural failures also centered around the tail plane were experienced in both USAAF and RAF P-51D aircraft:

 

Willard G. Gillette was testing  P-51 Mustang 44-13372 on 10 August 1944, this aircraft crashed after it suffered a structural failure in a dive during a test flight from Debden. It lost its ammunition tray covers, then went out of control when its tail snapped off. Gillette baled out and landed on the cricket field in Haverhill Castle Camp.

 

 

RAF structural issues with Mustangs led to a study by the R.A.E. in 1945, in part centered around tail plane fractures. This is one of the RAF 126th FS Mustangs (See note):

 

 

 

[Guster]

I've never had issues with that. I try to be smooth on the controls to preserve speed. I do black out now then though.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Keep your aeroplane in trim, which in steep, fast dives will require a lot of Wellie on the left rudder pedal, and be smooth and slow on the stick.

 

I've survived countless 500+mph pullouts in both versions of the 51 simply by following that advice.

 

That will work for any plane in the sim, though they all have different VnE.  I have dived a P40 at an indicated 900kph and got it safely on the aerodrome afterwards.

[Irishratticus72]

17 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Keep your aeroplane in trim, which in steep, fast dives will require a lot of Wellie on the left rudder pedal, and be smooth and slow on the stick.

 

I've survived countless 500+mph pullouts in both versions of the 51 simply by following that advice.

 

That will work for any plane in the sim, though they all have different VnE.  I have dived a P40 at an indicated 900kph and got it safely on the aerodrome afterwards.

I once got a P38 back into the hangar at over 820kph. Yes, you read that right.

[Luftschiff]

25 minutes ago, Irishratticus72 said:

I once got a P38 back into the hangar at over 820kph. Yes, you read that right.

 

I have dived a BF110 into a hangar at over 820 kph as well. Neither me nor the hangar enjoyed the altercation.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Never had issues with that. However, the Mustang loses its flaps all the time when taking damage and thats mighty annoying.

[CountZero]

I think we get this because we can pull stick harder then it should be able to be puled at thouse speeds, best example of this is Tempest and how easy it alow player to go over structural limits and brake wings...

[Guest deleted@83466]

I can’t say I’ve seen a problem with wings cracking off in any of the WW2 planes, and not the P-51, at least not without having been damaged first.  Even in freakishly fast dives going after a jet, with control surfaces ripping off, don’t recall ever snapping the wings off by G force when pulling up.  More likely G-loc.  Used to fly the SE-5 a lot in RoF, and Tomcat in DCS, both of which are very breakable, so maybe I learned to be a little more cautious throwing the stick around.  Admittedly Simshaker software + Buttkicker gives some tactile cues that somebody without them wont get (like a buzz in the seat proportional to the Gs).  Good wind sounds always help too.

Edited February 13, 2022 by SeaSerpent

[Irishratticus72]

43 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I can’t say I’ve seen a problem with wings cracking off in any of the WW2 planes, and not the P-51, at least not without having been damaged first.  Even in freakishly fast dives going after a jet, with control surfaces ripping off, don’t recall ever snapping the wings off by G force when pulling up.  More likely G-loc.  Used to fly the SE-5 a lot in RoF, and Tomcat in DCS, both of which are very breakable, so maybe I learned to be a little more cautious throwing the stick around.  Admittedly Simshaker software + Buttkicker gives some tactile cues that somebody without them wont get (like a buzz in the seat proportional to the Gs).  Good wind sounds always help too.

What about crap coming out of your collar? That`s always a sign of too much negative G.

[Denum]

P51s/Tiff/Tempest are the only planes in the game that can pull more then 9Gs, they also are the only ones I've broken wings on. 

Chances are you're screaming fast and pulling more then you realize. 

[KevPBur]

I use an ancient force feed back stick. The effect is far from perfect but since turning the effect up and getting used to it I pretty much never blackout and have never done damage to a plane due to overspeed.

 

I suspect you may be tugging your stick to much ?

[Irishratticus72]

3 minutes ago, KevPBur said:

I use an ancient force feed back stick. The effect is far from perfect but since turning the effect up and getting used to it I pretty much never blackout and have never done damage to a plane due to overspeed.

 

I suspect you may be tugging your stick to much ?

ROFL. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:15 PM, CountZero said:

I think we get this because we can pull stick harder then it should be able to be puled at thouse speeds, best example of this is Tempest and how easy it alow player to go over structural limits and brake wings...

 

Tempest is notorious for wing snap, you can fly totally level at 390mph and then do a sharp pull and snap goes the wing...

 

Never had this happen in p-51 tho, usually if you try to do that you just get a nasty stall and end up flying ass forward. 

On 2/14/2022 at 4:58 PM, Denum said:

P51s/Tiff/Tempest are the only planes in the game that can pull more then 9Gs, they also are the only ones I've broken wings on. 

Chances are you're screaming fast and pulling more then you realize. 

 

 

All spits can easily pull over 9G, Spit V was only plane that i could get a fast G-loc before the new G force system. 

[Sitaro]

There is a post on this forum mention how heavy the 51 is on the stick. I read a report from a other or possibly the same pilot stating how much force it took on the stick to pjll a 3g turn. It wasn't light.  I want to say he said something like 75lbs of force. But that seems heavy. But the number sounds right. Either way, the amount of force to pull a 9g pull at 300mph ot more shouod not be so easy the winvs are snapping off. Can a mustang pull 9g's. Maybe. Can the pilot, it sounds like he would need to be Hercules. Maybe with both feet against the panel and bith hands on the stick. Pushing with his legs. 

[357th_KW]

It’s likely that most, if not all Mustangs that are flying today are using a different elevator and horizontal stabilizer arrangement then a wartime aircraft. The elevators were swapped from fabric to metal and the angle of the horizontal stabilizer was adjusted to try improve handling at high Mach numbers and improve safety.

[Chilli_40]

I'm having my left wing and only my left wing rip off about 6ft to 8ft out from the wing root in the P51-D in a much less than a 400-mph roll out. I only have it happen in MP with anywhere from 50% or less fuel load on board. I come down on a plane, pulling up coming out, I never have a grey or blackout in vision the plane feels weird I look left, and wing is gone! From now on I'll try and turn the camera on to get it on a track. This has happened at least a half dozen times lately, only in the P51 never in the Spitfire or Tempest it was weird enough last night another pilot commented WTF after it happened.

[Sitaro]

Sheriff had a good thought on this but it only applies to multiplayer game play. Basically lag. When pulling, say 5g's in my case. A slight bit of server correction from lag suddenly has you pulling in excess of 12. This is basically my understanding of what he was saying anyways. But in my case, it made sense. Because in the replay, you could clearly see, I was pulling 5g's. Then the wing shear as simultaneously the meter jumped to 12.  Should this be fixed. Yes. Can thus realistically be fixed without causing some other unwanted FM exploit surfacing? This I don't know. 

[Chilli_40]

37 minutes ago, Sitaro said:

Sheriff had a good thought on this but it only applies to multiplayer game play. Basically lag. When pulling, say 5g's in my case. A slight bit of server correction from lag suddenly has you pulling in excess of 12. This is basically my understanding of what he was saying anyways. But in my case, it made sense. Because in the replay, you could clearly see, I was pulling 5g's. Then the wing shear as simultaneously the meter jumped to 12.  Should this be fixed. Yes. Can thus realistically be fixed without causing some other unwanted FM exploit surfacing? This I don't know. 

That's interesting, it has only happened to me in multi-player.

[Sitaro]

16 minutes ago, Raven4 said:

That's interesting, it has only happened to me in multi-player.

Same. But I really only play multiplayer. Well, it has only accidentally happened in multiplayer. In QM, I was able to intentionally rip them off. But for the life of me, I couldn't get a 109 or a 190 to shed its wings. 

[remco3]

Why is this not happening with 109 and 190. Strange that p51 and tempest are having this issue.
 

if the stick force needed prevented the pilot from breaking the wing in certain conditions then the game should also prevent us from pulling 12 g.

[Toxin1]

Yes, I have had this happen only in multiplayer as well. It is likely an over G based on stick response.  I was worried my hotas was spiking and causing it to overG instantly, but it seems to be only in multiplayer.

[354thFG_Panda_]

17 minutes ago, remco3 said:

Why is this not happening with 109 and 190. Strange that p51 and tempest are having this issue.
 

if the stick force needed prevented the pilot from breaking the wing in certain conditions then the game should also prevent us from pulling 12 g.

The 109 and 190 have much heavier stick forces and are rated at slightly higher G (10.5 and 11 Vs 10). The tempest wings are producing an extremely suspicious amount of lift and at lighter stick forces so the G limit of 12 is easily reached anyway. P51 case it can reach the limit at speed and also when pulling and rolling at the same time at more moderate speeds (G may not go over the limit but one wing is overloaded)

Edited August 29, 2022 by theRedPanda

[CountZero]

9 minutes ago, Toxin1 said:

Yes, I have had this happen only in multiplayer as well. It is likely an over G based on stick response.  I was worried my hotas was spiking and causing it to overG instantly, but it seems to be only in multiplayer.

I had tempests spits and 51s losing wing in QM in SP so its not only MP thing, i wonted to see when exactly wing brakes, and it was at moments when G HUD meter go abow G limits set in sec pages, so its to easy in game to go over structural limits, or structural limits are to strickt and brake things to early after max. Tempest is worst case example of this and its hard to belive real life tempest was alowed to go in service with sutch easy way to kill pilots so late in war where risking pilots on allied side in questionable airplanes was not neccesary any more, and they were intercepting v-1s, you would expect they would be extreme fast and pull hard after shooting at it, there would be reports of tempest pilots just losing wings if forces were so easy on sticks or G limits so strickt. Also i would not be suprised that uber turning of tempest we have in game is also conected to this easy riping of wings.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

At one point the P-51 got fitted with accelerometers so the pilots would know how many Gs they were pulling to avoid causing structural strain and damage to the airframes, the G limit depended on the weight, 5 G for over 10k pounds, and 8 G for 8k pounds.






With a 8 G limit and the usually considered 50% safety margin, so the ultimate breaking point would be 12G at least for 8000 pounds weight. You would also have decreased airframe G tolerance if you do the G pulling asymmetrically (so pulling and rolling).

In the diagram you can see how many Gs the plane can pull before stalling based on it's lift generation. Above 300 mph it can surpass the limits with full stick, at 350 knots it goes off the chart above what looks like 14 G, and this only increases with speed, of course the pilot would need to have the neccesary strenght to move the flight stick to do it.

Thankfully we have the HUD accelerometer so you can measure how much you are pulling at high speeds to not overstress the airframe, as long as you keep 8 G pulls as max at least symmetrically you should be ok
 

Edited August 30, 2022 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[354thFG_Rails]

That -2.6g limit. I wish the game was better at punishing -g maneuvers. It’s crazy to me seeing Ai and real players push the nose down hard without any negative effects.