Alternating between headtracking and VR?

[Customizer171]

You often hear that when you tried VR, you never wanna play with a headtracker again.

I am curious to know if anyone of you, is alternating between the two, an if so, how do you like it?

 

I have VR and it is really great for the immersion, but to me there is also a couple of big downsides.

The clarity is one, it´s very difficult for me to spot and identify planes against the ground. I get VERY hot and sweaty, the hmd fogs up sometimes, its a constant tweaking to find the best performance and sometimes you need to start over again after a game update. The difficulties to see and use your keybord. Slight nausea sometimes after an intense dogfight.

 

I have never used a headtracker, only the hat on the joystick when I played on the monitor. I think using the hat sucked, but I REALLY liked the quality of the graphics.

The reason I am considering to give a headtracker a try, is mainly because of really nice graphics, but also to avoid the other downsides I experienced in VR.

 

I want something that is simple to set up, then forget about tweakings and just fly and enjoy it.

I am not going to ditch my Reverb G2, but I want an alternative when I get tired of it´s drawbacks.

 

The question is if anyone else is doing this, alternate between headtracker and VR, and being happy doing so?

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I use VR and head tracking but I find that I much prefer VR, despite certain limitations. 

Saying that, I don't mind tweaking setting to use both now and again. 

[Irishratticus72]

Used TrackIR for over 9 years, just got a Q2 recently, honestly, I do miss the fidelity of a flatscreen running at 144fps at 2560x1440 with everything maxed out, but the immersion of VR is a siren singing from the rocks. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Irishratticus72

[Youtch]

I thought i would be alternating but then when trying VR, even though i really hate the like of clarity and definition compared to 4k monitor, there is no going back.

 

4 months on G2, and i put the headtracker pack in the box, since i didn t use it even once.

 

Plus the muscle memory of head movement would be totally messed up after flying 1:1 in VR.

[messsucher]

I can't even imagine using TrackIR anymore, such ancient tech. Yuck.

[firdimigdi]

6 hours ago, Customizer171 said:

. I get VERY hot and sweaty, the hmd fogs up sometimes

 

Before wearing the HMD let it warm up on your desk for about 5-10 mins depending on ambient temp and it won't fog up. Also consider putting a couple of 12 or 14 cm case fans blowing at you at half-speed, keeps you from getting hot and also gives you a reference in space which helps some people with nausea.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Firdimigdi
typos

[Customizer171]

6 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I use VR and head tracking but I find that I much prefer VR, despite certain limitations. 

Saying that, I don't mind tweaking setting to use both now and again. 

 

Thanks, I also think I will prefer VR but I feel that I would like to try headtracking, if nothing else just to have something to compare with, before I make my decision what to use. I am not a wizzard with computers so I will not miss the tweaking part ?

6 hours ago, Irishratticus72 said:

Used TrackIR for over 9 years, just got a Q2 recently, honestly, I do miss the fidelity of a flatscreen running at 144fps at 2560x1440 with everything maxed out, but the immersion of VR is a siren singing from the rocks. 

 

Where you happy with your TrackIR?

Do you use it sometimes even after you got your Q2, or is it VR only now?

Immersion is really great, no question about that, I only wish the graphics were the same.

[Irishratticus72]

20 minutes ago, Customizer171 said:

 

Thanks, I also think I will prefer VR but I feel that I would like to try headtracking, if nothing else just to have something to compare with, before I make my decision what to use. I am not a wizzard with computers so I will not miss the tweaking part ?

 

Where you happy with your TrackIR?

Do you use it sometimes even after you got your Q2, or is it VR only now?

Immersion is really great, no question about that, I only wish the graphics were the same.

Actually, just today I intended to switch back to my TrackIR for a DCS session, but......... ? https://media.tenor.com/images/ba42812a1962b05df037ed07bf90d78d/tenor.gif

Edited February 11, 2022 by Irishratticus72

[Customizer171]

4 hours ago, Youtch said:

I thought i would be alternating but then when trying VR, even though i really hate the like of clarity and definition compared to 4k monitor, there is no going back.

 

4 months on G2, and i put the headtracker pack in the box, since i didn t use it even once.

 

Plus the muscle memory of head movement would be totally messed up after flying 1:1 in VR.

 

Thanks for your info.

Head movement is obviously more natural in VR and maybe it is difficult to alternate between them because of that. From my understanding this is a guess from your side since you did not try it after you got your G2, but it would be very interesting to hear from those who do use both, if this is a problem?

46 minutes ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

Before wearing the HMD let it warm up on your desk for about 5-10 mins depending on ambient temp and it won't fog up. Also consider putting a couple of 12 or 14 cm case fans blowing at you at half-speed, keeps you from getting hot and also gives you a reference in space which helps some people with nausea.

 

 

Thanks for the tip about waiting for it to heat up, I have been using a hairdryer, who wants to wait 5-10 min before taking off ?. I will try it your way next time.

I have also been thinking of a fan in front of me, but did not try it yet because I feel most of the heat is inside the hmd! Anyway, I will try it since it will not get worse and it could help with nausea because of the reference in space, as you said, thank you!

[Zippy-do-dar]

I tried VR and loved it But my eyes don't i just can't get a setup that works for me

So went back to headtracking

On the plus side i can find my drink now.

[Feldgrun]

I haven't tried VR (yet), but don't you have a hard time with finding the correct buttons? Can you see your joystick/keyboard/throttle with VR? If not, and if you have a bunch of key mapped buttons, how do you know you're selecting the right one if your view is obscured by the VR headset?

[messsucher]

3 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

I haven't tried VR (yet), but don't you have a hard time with finding the correct buttons? Can you see your joystick/keyboard/throttle with VR? If not, and if you have a bunch of key mapped buttons, how do you know you're selecting the right one if your view is obscured by the VR headset?

 

Can't say hard time. On those HOTASes buttons are quite ergonomically readily available. And what are not naturally ergonomically you find by feeling.

 

Finnish fighter pilots had to find controls and buttons blindfolded before they were allowed to fly. It is best you can find the buttons also without looking at time, so that you can keep eyes on the enemy all the time for example.

[Biggus]

I've used Track IR for roughly a decade (currently with a 3440x1440 monitor), and I picked up a Reverb G2 last year.

 

Honestly, I still spend far more time with Track IR.  I can completely understand how some people can never go back to it after getting a VR headset, but it's also got some large negatives.  It's hot (it's Summer here now), it's got a very limited field of view and the resolution is a bit lacking.  I'm also unfortunately not as limber as I was two decades ago and I can't always get my head to where it needs to be.  It's far worse for me in DCS than Il-2.  Getting at that O2 switch in the Tomcat or the rearmost panels in the VIper often mean physically using my hands to grab my head and push it into the right direction because I can't bend and twist as well as I once could.  It must look to anyone standing in the room that I'm watching a particularly violent autoerotic asphyxiation porn game.

 

MSFS has the best implementation of VR for people who like to swap between flat and 3D.  Ctrl-Tab and you switch between outputs on the fly.  I'd love to be able to commute to the war zone in Il-2 on the monitor and switch to the headset as I neared the objective.

[SCG_Tzigy]

I have G2.  Try every few weeks but keep going to my 4k 43inch asus rog w trackir.  Heat, sweat nausea, hard to reach my beer, all big factors....really tough for me to give up the incredible detail at 4k on large screen...

[messsucher]

4 minutes ago, SCG_Tzigy said:

I have G2.  Try every few weeks but keep going to my 4k 43inch asus rog w trackir.  Heat, sweat nausea, hard to reach my beer, all big factors....really tough for me to give up the incredible detail at 4k on large screen...

 

It is winter here now, totally forgot that how it is during the summer ?

[Strewth]

23 minutes ago, SCG_Tzigy said:

"nausea, hard to reach my beer, all big factors"
 

The two issues are not related at all, are they? 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Strewth

[firdimigdi]

7 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

I haven't tried VR (yet), but don't you have a hard time with finding the correct buttons? Can you see your joystick/keyboard/throttle with VR? If not, and if you have a bunch of key mapped buttons, how do you know you're selecting the right one if your view is obscured by the VR headset?

 

Never had an issue tbh, I blind-type anyhow so using the keyboard in VR is not different. But all of my necessary bindings for the planes I fly are on my HOTAS and a custom button&axis-box using both direct presses and combos with modifiers, so it's all down to easily trainable muscle-memory. You also never have to rely on technochat or a HUD in VR which is oddly helpful.

[Irishratticus72]

8 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

I haven't tried VR (yet), but don't you have a hard time with finding the correct buttons? Can you see your joystick/keyboard/throttle with VR? If not, and if you have a bunch of key mapped buttons, how do you know you're selecting the right one if your view is obscured by the VR headset?

I've a Warthog HOTAS, and it's just a matter of learning the layout of the buttons from the throttle. It's not that hard actually. 

[F19_Haddock]

4 hours ago, Biggus said:

MSFS has the best implementation of VR for people who like to swap between flat and 3D.  Ctrl-Tab and you switch between outputs on the fly.  I'd love to be able to commute to the war zone in Il-2 on the monitor and switch to the headset as I neared the objective.

 

Absolutely! Their approach to VR is fantastic. You can happily play in VR and switch to 2D anytime, to do some screenshots etc. They also have independent graphical settings for VR and 2D, and the game switches between them on the fly, without restarting. But better of all is their VR-friendly TAB menu, with dropdown options easily accessible with the mouse. Il2 could definitely do with a similar system for radio commands and orders for example.

[Remontti]

I have VR but mostly I use Edtracker or TrackIR. Mostly because of better graphics, ability to identify planes afar and comfortably.

 

I use JSGME to quickly change settings between VR and flat screen (different graphics settings and slightly different control layout).

[SAG]

I went VR with the original Oculus Rift and never touched my headtracker again. I just got my 3rd VR headset a couple of weeks ago. 
I see how it may not be for everyone but I can't go back, I wouldn't be able to land without crashing, not to mention I wouldn't be able to hit anything with my guns

 

[=420=Syphen]

8 hours ago, Biggus said:

I've used Track IR for roughly a decade (currently with a 3440x1440 monitor), and I picked up a Reverb G2 last year.

 

Honestly, I still spend far more time with Track IR.  I can completely understand how some people can never go back to it after getting a VR headset, but it's also got some large negatives.  It's hot (it's Summer here now), it's got a very limited field of view and the resolution is a bit lacking.  I'm also unfortunately not as limber as I was two decades ago and I can't always get my head to where it needs to be.  It's far worse for me in DCS than Il-2.  Getting at that O2 switch in the Tomcat or the rearmost panels in the VIper often mean physically using my hands to grab my head and push it into the right direction because I can't bend and twist as well as I once could.  It must look to anyone standing in the room that I'm watching a particularly violent autoerotic asphyxiation porn game.

 

MSFS has the best implementation of VR for people who like to swap between flat and 3D.  Ctrl-Tab and you switch between outputs on the fly.  I'd love to be able to commute to the war zone in Il-2 on the monitor and switch to the headset as I neared the objective.

 

 

There is a 3d printable facial interface that combined with a low profile foam will give you about 10 degrees more FoV for the G2. Worth the effort of printing it. 

[Biggus]

7 hours ago, =420=Syphen said:

 

 

There is a 3d printable facial interface that combined with a low profile foam will give you about 10 degrees more FoV for the G2. Worth the effort of printing it. 

One of those fun things about being old is that I've got corrected lenses in, and there's not really enough clearance to get my eyeballs closer.  But that's a good mod if you have some distance between eyeball and screen.

[KPnutskgwanchos]

Interesting topic .... Ive just gone VR (Q2) and am blown away by the immersion factor even tho my rig is struggling  (I7 2600k + rtx2070s). All Ive done so far is fly around reacquainting myself with my favourite aircraft as the modelling in 3d is so much more realistic and every aircraft seems more individual and "alive". However I do know Im going to really miss looking at the beautiful external 4k views in 2d and also subtle updates like the new sky tech will  probably be lost in VR until the tech becomes cheaper/better/attainable for me. I can only imagine how good it will be in 5 years. I think I will be dipping back into track IR now and then to appreciate the more subtle updates and new aircraft external views.                 

[Irishratticus72]

16 minutes ago, KPnutskgwanchos said:

Interesting topic .... Ive just gone VR (Q2) and am blown away by the immersion factor even tho my rig is struggling  (I7 2600k + rtx2070s). All Ive done so far is fly around reacquainting myself with my favourite aircraft as the modelling in 3d is so much more realistic and every aircraft seems more individual and "alive". However I do know Im going to really miss looking at the beautiful external 4k views in 2d and also subtle updates like the new sky tech will  probably be lost in VR until the tech becomes cheaper/better/attainable for me. I can only imagine how good it will be in 5 years. I think I will be dipping back into track IR now and then to appreciate the more subtle updates and new aircraft external views.                 

You never forget your first VR kill, mine was a P39, placed about 12 20mm shells into his left wing root, poor bastard just exploded, the satisfaction of actually choosing exactly where to put the guns on him, sweet. 

[Customizer171]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:50 PM, Zippy-do-dar said:

I tried VR and loved it But my eyes don't i just can't get a setup that works for me

So went back to headtracking

On the plus side i can find my drink now.

 

I can certainly understand that VR is not for everyone, and that´s where I am right now. Trying to figure it out, if it is for me or not?

On 2/12/2022 at 2:57 AM, Feldgrun said:

I haven't tried VR (yet), but don't you have a hard time with finding the correct buttons? Can you see your joystick/keyboard/throttle with VR? If not, and if you have a bunch of key mapped buttons, how do you know you're selecting the right one if your view is obscured by the VR headset?

Right now I dont use that many buttons so it is not my biggest consern at the moment. But if I had alot, it would be difficult for me to remember them all. If you need to see the keybord you have to lift your hmd. There is programs you can use that reacts to your voice, but I have not set that up yet.

On 2/12/2022 at 9:42 AM, Biggus said:

I've used Track IR for roughly a decade (currently with a 3440x1440 monitor), and I picked up a Reverb G2 last year.

 

Honestly, I still spend far more time with Track IR.  I can completely understand how some people can never go back to it after getting a VR headset, but it's also got some large negatives.  It's hot (it's Summer here now), it's got a very limited field of view and the resolution is a bit lacking.  I'm also unfortunately not as limber as I was two decades ago and I can't always get my head to where it needs to be.  It's far worse for me in DCS than Il-2.  Getting at that O2 switch in the Tomcat or the rearmost panels in the VIper often mean physically using my hands to grab my head and push it into the right direction because I can't bend and twist as well as I once could.  It must look to anyone standing in the room that I'm watching a particularly violent autoerotic asphyxiation porn game.

 

MSFS has the best implementation of VR for people who like to swap between flat and 3D.  Ctrl-Tab and you switch between outputs on the fly.  I'd love to be able to commute to the war zone in Il-2 on the monitor and switch to the headset as I neared the objective.

 

Thank you for your reply. Do you find any issues with going back and forth, from VR to TrackIR?

Someone mentioned that it would be difficult because of the head movements are very different between  VR and TrackIR?

I understand that when we get older we are not as flexible as we were before, but I have found that my neckmobility actually has improved after I started using VR ?

On 2/12/2022 at 9:55 AM, SCG_Tzigy said:

I have G2.  Try every few weeks but keep going to my 4k 43inch asus rog w trackir.  Heat, sweat nausea, hard to reach my beer, all big factors....really tough for me to give up the incredible detail at 4k on large screen...

 

I have similar feelings, even if I don´t have as nice monitor as you do.

23 hours ago, Remontti said:

I have VR but mostly I use Edtracker or TrackIR. Mostly because of better graphics, ability to identify planes afar and comfortably.

 

I use JSGME to quickly change settings between VR and flat screen (different graphics settings and slightly different control layout).

 

Do you find it hard to alternate between VR and headtracking, because of differences in the way you move the head?

2 hours ago, KPnutskgwanchos said:

Interesting topic .... Ive just gone VR (Q2) and am blown away by the immersion factor even tho my rig is struggling  (I7 2600k + rtx2070s). All Ive done so far is fly around reacquainting myself with my favourite aircraft as the modelling in 3d is so much more realistic and every aircraft seems more individual and "alive". However I do know Im going to really miss looking at the beautiful external 4k views in 2d and also subtle updates like the new sky tech will  probably be lost in VR until the tech becomes cheaper/better/attainable for me. I can only imagine how good it will be in 5 years. I think I will be dipping back into track IR now and then to appreciate the more subtle updates and new aircraft external views.                 

 

The immersion is amazing, no doubt about that, but there is also some downsides (as always). I hope these "issues" will disappear in the future.

[Customizer171]

2 hours ago, Irishratticus72 said:

You never forget your first VR kill, mine was a P39, placed about 12 20mm shells into his left wing root, poor bastard just exploded, the satisfaction of actually choosing exactly where to put the guns on him, sweet. 

 

I actually don´t remember the details as good as you do, but I do remember it was a very satisfying experience!

However I have a more detailed memory of the first time I got shot down. I got out at the last second and I landed in the parachute  almost at the same as the plane hit the ground. The plane hit a tree that fell over me and I got killed, hahahaha.

[Cpt_Cool]

I go back and fourth. Mostly because spotting and identifying are so much more difficult in the old occulus rift i am using. Also it (feels like) less of a "production" to get flying with the trackir when i am short on time.

[Irishratticus72]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Cool said:

I go back and fourth. Mostly because spotting and identifying are so much more difficult in the old occulus rift i am using. Also it (feels like) less of a "production" to get flying with the trackir when i am short on time.

Oh, I know exactly what you mean, TrackIR, just clip the pro to my headset and away I go, VR, well, get the kettle on first..... 

[Remontti]

3 hours ago, Customizer171 said:

Do you find it hard to alternate between VR and headtracking, because of differences in the way you move the head?

 

 

Headtracking (TrackIR, Edtracker etc.) is easy to get used to. The movement is not 1:1 but you can adjust the response curves to your liking. I've been using them for years so I don't find it hard at all to switch between VR and Headtrackers.

 

You don't need get used to VR when talking about tracking.  Your head movements are 1:1. You just turn your head like in real life. The tracking in VR is as natural as it gets.

[9./JG27golani79]

Switching back and forth and I dont have any problems whatsoever adjusting.

 

I only have a Quest 1 so it is not the best headset - I use it from time to time to enjoy the immersion but otherwise I fly with Tracks IR

[Biggus]

7 hours ago, Customizer171 said:

Thank you for your reply. Do you find any issues with going back and forth, from VR to TrackIR?

Someone mentioned that it would be difficult because of the head movements are very different between  VR and TrackIR?

I understand that when we get older we are not as flexible as we were before, but I have found that my neckmobility actually has improved after I started using VR ?

 

 

As someone with terrible hand-eye coordination normally, no, it's not a problem for me at all.  I can understand how it could potentially be for some people, but at the same time I think that it is probably not a common issue.

 

For me, the neck mobility isn't the problem as much as the upper and mid body mobility with a centre mounted stick.  My seat is an office chair that swivels, but with a Virpil base right around my crotch, I can't turn the chair and I can't get my shoulders out of the way when looking down and to the side.  Looking up and around is fine and yes, it's probably helping my neck quite a bit too.  But anything down beside my thighs is hard work, where once I get my head into a spot to find a switch down there, I practically cannot breathe.  It's not a lot of fun.

[Customizer171]

13 hours ago, Remontti said:

 

Headtracking (TrackIR, Edtracker etc.) is easy to get used to. The movement is not 1:1 but you can adjust the response curves to your liking. I've been using them for years so I don't find it hard at all to switch between VR and Headtrackers.

 

You don't need get used to VR when talking about tracking.  Your head movements are 1:1. You just turn your head like in real life. The tracking in VR is as natural as it gets.

 

Thanks for your reply.

I understand the differences between VR and headtracking but someone said it could be problematic to alternate between them because VR is 1:1 and headtracking is not.

However, now several people have said they don´t have any issues switching back and forth so I don´t think that it will be a problem to me either.

 

 

9 hours ago, Biggus said:

 

 

As someone with terrible hand-eye coordination normally, no, it's not a problem for me at all.  I can understand how it could potentially be for some people, but at the same time I think that it is probably not a common issue.

 

For me, the neck mobility isn't the problem as much as the upper and mid body mobility with a centre mounted stick.  My seat is an office chair that swivels, but with a Virpil base right around my crotch, I can't turn the chair and I can't get my shoulders out of the way when looking down and to the side.  Looking up and around is fine and yes, it's probably helping my neck quite a bit too.  But anything down beside my thighs is hard work, where once I get my head into a spot to find a switch down there, I practically cannot breathe.  It's not a lot of fun.

 

Thank you for your reply.

Several people have now said they don´t have any problem switching between them so I think I will be ok.

Yes, the upper and mid body mobility is harder. I am also using center mounted stick, guess we need to keep on stretching ?

[VA_Kamicosmos]

I switch back and forth between my Quest2 VR and TrackIR5.

Reasons:

short battery life in the headset and/or I forget to charge it (the cable keeps it charged while playing, but then I have a cable getting in the way)

To maintain upper 30s fps in VR I have to turn stuff down.  It still looks good, but not as good as flatscreen mode where I run full tilt at 120+fps.

I use TrackIR when playing online currently, mainly so I can more easily manage Discord, SRS, maps, etc.

 

VR is so immersive, it is hard to go back to TrackIR, but I guess I do it often enough that it's not a huge dealbreaker.

 

Now, playing a flight sim without VR or TIR?  Right Out, Hell No, Nevah Evah, etc.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kamicosmos

[Gambit21]

Tried VR - sticking with Track IR. It’s simply superior in my use-case.

Also I’m not giving up 4K.

[SYN_Vander]

I most definitely switch between VR and TrackIR regularly and I find it's not a problem at all. There is no need to be either in the VR or in the TrackIR camp; that is very silly. When I switch to VR it's like: Oh, how cool, it looks so real! Then I switch to flatscreen and TrackIR and it's: Oh, look at those graphics, so much detail!

 

Why do I switch? Comfort, Performance, Competitiveness... I fly VR mostly with IL2 because it performs best compared to the other flight sims I play: DCS and FS2020. But even then I sometimes just want to see the better graphics and higher detail or it's more practical if you need to type stuff in chat. I find although spotting is fine in VR, identifying a distant plane is horrible and looking behind you can be a pain so it puts me at a disadvantage flying online dogfight missions (even though aiming is easier). It's also why VR is by far the best for Flying Circus since the distances to other planes are less.

 

Btw: Reverb G2 and 3080 ti, my CPU is 2 generations too old though...

Edited February 15, 2022 by SYN_Vander

[Gambit21]

Going back and forth from the DCS or IL2 editor to flying/testing - VR is just not practical for me. 90% of my time in flight sims is during content creation/testing. 

 

I can see VR being highly desirable for FC...wind in the hair and all.

 

[messsucher]

There should just already been voltage regulation to the fan governed by speed of your aircraft.

[Soilworker]

On 2/11/2022 at 1:17 PM, Customizer171 said:

I get VERY hot and sweaty, the hmd fogs up sometimes,

 

Slight nausea sometimes after an intense dogfight.

 

I suggest a fan, even if you have a small gap where air can get in it'll de-fog your lenses and keep you cool. 

 

You'll reach a point where your brain gets used to VR and you won't feel nauseous anymore ("getting your VR legs"), the downside in my experience is that the whole thing doesn't feel as real/convincing anymore but it's still great and I enjoy it immensely. 

[fjacobsen]

Spotting and identifying aircraft in IL-2 with VR is offcourse not easy (actually also not in real life).

 

German fighters has most often squared wings, while Allied has more rounded wings.

Also German fighters have a thin trail of smoke extending quite a bit (not to be misinterpreted as a damaged aircraft.)

 

Once You have tried VR, there is no going back, despite the more blurred graphics, the immersion factor is simply too high.

 

It took med a couple of weeks, playing around 2-3 hour per day, before I got used to VR.

In the start I got dizzy and had speccles  after playin for a while. But now I have no problems using VR.

 

Setting up graphics and VR settings is a bit of a hazzle though before You find good settings.