My wishes in addition of VR... finger tracking

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Clickable cockpits are available in the Dover series... why not implementing finger tracking so that the player really reaches full immersion?

 

Is the above doable?

 

Please devs, be indulgent, the present topic is some kind of "what if"...

 

 

[Drum]

You mean so I can see your finger when I zoom past you?  <G>

[BraveSirRobin]

This should be a very easy feature to add.  They really only have to track 1 finger.

[=420=Syphen]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:33 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Clickable cockpits are available in the Dover series... why not implementing finger tracking so that the player really reaches full immersion?

 

Is the above doable?

 

Please devs, be indulgent, the present topic is some kind of "what if"...

 

 

 

 

I don't see it happening - finger / body tracking via inside out cameras is always a bit flakey. I enjoyed playing with it on my Quest 2 with the Darts game and Hand Physics Lab but I would not use it at all in a sim. Trying to fumble about with a finger with flakey implementation while in the midst of a fast paced combat sortie doesn't strike me as fun. 

 

But that's just my opinion as someone who has played with hand tracking extensively on the Q2.  It's a gimmick with current tech.  

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Ok Syphen, thank for sharing your views. You know, it's just I don't like the idea of regularly removing my VR headset for the use of the keyboard.

 

 

[=420=Syphen]

49 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Ok Syphen, thank for sharing your views. You know, it's just I don't like the idea of regularly removing my VR headset for the use of the keyboard.

 

 

 

If you have enough buttons on your HOTAS, you'll never need to touch your keyboard. 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

10 minutes ago, =420=Syphen said:

If you have enough buttons on your HOTAS, you'll never need to touch your keyboard. 

 

 

Well, all three generations of IL-2 games (IL2-1946, IL2CoD and IL2GB) require the mapping of many, many controls, especially IL2CoD. I don't think there is a single HOTAS that can provide all the buttons needed for the controls I use in CoD...

 

 

[messsucher]

Additional keyboard is needed, something where you can modify the keys for "touch typing", for blind feel, that is. It can be simply done by carving some of the keys with a knife, so that you know by feeling very well that key you are touching, and hence know what is around it.

 

People have done for ages peripherals for flight simming, now it is just a matter of making a keyboard for VR flying, not a biggie, DIY designs of keyboards has been a thing for several years.

 

 

Edit: You could actually when you make the keyboard already group certain keys into suitable groups, making it even more easy to find "blind" the keys you need. There is no reason to pack all keys tightly side by side, unless minimal form factor is wanted.

Edited February 10, 2022 by messsucher

[343KKT_Kintaro]

There are too many combinations for using a keyboard while being blinded by the simulation in the VR headset.

 

If "DCS" and "Cliffs of Dover" do not acquire the finger tracking feature for their clikable cockpits... I hope future flight sims will.

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

Has no one here heard of VoiceAttack?

?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

34 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Has no one here heard of VoiceAttack?

?

 

 

Do you mean Spitffire pilots, back in the Summer of 1940, got down their flaps by saying "flaps down" out loud?

 

Dear Dagwoodyt, I opened this topic seeking realism and immersion... ?

 

 

 

[5th_Barone]

7 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Well, all three generations of IL-2 games (IL2-1946, IL2CoD and IL2GB) require the mapping of many, many controls, especially IL2CoD. I don't think there is a single HOTAS that can provide all the buttons needed for the controls I use in CoD...

 

 

Honestly speaking I don't see the needing of many keyboards binding, especially in clod were we have a bit of clickable spots.

Surely they can be put on an Hotas.

After all system are quite simple at least for fighters.

 

Finger tracking would help VR users in reaching with their hands the clickable spots, right?

[Voyager]

2 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Do you mean Spitffire pilots, back in the Summer of 1940, got down their flaps by saying "flaps down" out loud?

 

Dear Dagwoodyt, I opened this topic seeking realism and immersion... ?

 

 

 

I'd think you'd use Voice Attack to handle the radio coms and bailout. 

 

For finger tracking in clickables, PointCTRL has a thing that basically converts finger location to a mouse cursor. He developed it for DCS, and MSFS apparently does something weird with the mouse so he hasn't gotten it to work there yet, but it is completely separate from VR so you can run it without having VR capability.

 

Fair warning, he had to pause production for a year or so due to the pandemic, so he's about a year behind in the preorders. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Voyager

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

There is also Leap Motion to acquire your and movements. And CaptoGlove.

 

They both work with DCS (even if not ideally from what I‘ve seen).

 

But honestly, even in DCS you can bind almost everything ti a Hotas. CloD doesn‘t need that many buttons and the clickable cockpit is only for certain things. 
 

I have two keyboard modifiers on my stick that apply to all input devices (ctrl and shift). Also a shift button for the joystick itself. Don‘t even need to touch the keyboard in VR. Or I just use the mouse for the basic start up stuff in CloD / DCS.

 

What stick you you have, Kintaro? Maybe you can program it to give you more inputs.

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Voyager said:

I'd think you'd use Voice Attack to handle the radio coms and bailout. 

 

For finger tracking in clickables, PointCTRL has a thing that basically converts finger location to a mouse cursor. He developed it for DCS, and MSFS apparently does something weird with the mouse so he hasn't gotten it to work there yet, but it is completely separate from VR so you can run it without having VR capability.

 

Fair warning, he had to pause production for a year or so due to the pandemic, so he's about a year behind in the preorders. 

Yes, of course you can use VoiceAttack for radio comms, but for many other functions as well. For instance it can be used to operate manual landing gear such as in the Martlet. It gives option to duplicate clickable commands such as switching fuel tanks where clickable controls may be inconvenient to get to due to TiR limitations or to crudeness of click functionality which may be what is being hinted at ?

[messsucher]

45 minutes ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

There is also Leap Motion to acquire your and movements. And CaptoGlove.

 

They both work with DCS (even if not ideally from what I‘ve seen).

 

But honestly, even in DCS you can bind almost everything ti a Hotas. CloD doesn‘t need that many buttons and the clickable cockpit is only for certain things. 
 

I have two keyboard modifiers on my stick that apply to all input devices (ctrl and shift). Also a shift button for the joystick itself. Don‘t even need to touch the keyboard in VR. Or I just use the mouse for the basic start up stuff in CloD / DCS.

 

What stick you you have, Kintaro? Maybe you can program it to give you more inputs.

 

OMG, how I have not thought about using keyboard modifiers for the flight stick too ?‍♂️ Now will do it.

[Voyager]

5 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Yes, of course you can use VoiceAttack for radio comms, but for many other functions as well. For instance it can be used to operate manual landing gear such as in the Martlet. It gives option to duplicate clickable commands such as switching fuel tanks where clickable controls may be inconvenient to get to due to TiR limitations or to crudeness of click functionality which may be what is being hinted at ?

 

Does the Martlet here require the thirty odd cranks? I'm just imagining the sounds to bind it to for voice control.

 

Will need to go through the controls to see what all needs to be bound and overloaded. I know in GB, the radio stuff is pretty much the only think I haven't been able to bind to the hotas. 

 

Actually had my flight stuff disconnected for the last month or so, since been playing Forza, and it absolutely loses its marbles if there is anything not an approved controller attached to the system. 

 

Do need to get vJoy back up and running so I can mask the hotas when I'm playing that. 

[Dagwoodyt]

12 minutes ago, Voyager said:

 

Does the Martlet here require the thirty odd cranks? I'm just imagining the sounds to bind it to for voice control.

 

Will need to go through the controls to see what all needs to be bound and overloaded. I know in GB, the radio stuff is pretty much the only think I haven't been able to bind to the hotas. 

 

Actually had my flight stuff disconnected for the last month or so, since been playing Forza, and it absolutely loses its marbles if there is anything not an approved controller attached to the system. 

 

Do need to get vJoy back up and running so I can mask the hotas when I'm playing that. 

With VoiceAttack you can set the key press for the number of seconds it takes for the landing gear to cycle. The current click operation is so crude that I cannot use it for some functions such as setting the Spitfire gun sight. So for that I use a hat switch on my HoTaS throttle. The "finger pointing" thing is "pointing" out limitations of the clickable cockpit as currently implemented ?
 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Thank you guys for your responses. That was pretty interesting to learn all of this. In my case, I don't want to interact with my aircraft with my voice, this would be an immersion killer.

 

Hey J-Hat, my HOTAS is a Saitek X52 and... well... no, I never tried to program more inputs on it...

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

I have no idea why using "voice" controls would be an immersion killer. Aircraft communicate by voice, but OK. For me a real immersion killer is having to leave a mission to start recording the part of the mission I want to replay and then needing to use my keyboard to name the mission before returning to it. That would seem a no-no for VR so I am interested to see if it can be handled gracefully.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

I'll say it again: Spitfire pilots back in 1940 didn't fly their aircraft by talking to her... unless you have evidence to the contrary...

 

Immersion means plenty of different things. Or let's put it differently, I was talking about realism in simulation. My Saitek X52 didn't exist back in 1940... but it's hardware anyway... and a Spitfire stick and throttle are hardware too... So using the voice, again, is not historically realistic. This is what I call an immersion killer.

 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

1 hour ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Thank you guys for your responses. That was pretty interesting to learn all of this. In my case, I don't want to interact with my aircraft with my voice, this would be an immersion killer.

 

Hey J-Hat, my HOTAS is a Saitek X52 and... well... no, I never tried to program more inputs on it...

 

 

Search for Saitek‘s profile software and see if you can work it out. I remember on my x52 pro I could turn a knob thingy on the stick and the leds would change colors to indicate different profiles. This would practicall triple the stick’s inpits from what I remember (maybe I’m wrong though). I think you can even assign a button as a modifier like ctrl or shift, but not really sure. 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Hey J-hat, thanks a bunch for this precious info. I still do not have a VR headset but when I'l have one, I'll be forced to adapt both my settings and the use of my hardware, that's for sure. For the moment, I'll explore your suggestion simply because it provides a better use of my HOTAS, even in a flat 2D monitor.

 

 

[=420=Syphen]

9 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

There are too many combinations for using a keyboard while being blinded by the simulation in the VR headset.

 

If "DCS" and "Cliffs of Dover" do not acquire the finger tracking feature for their clikable cockpits... I hope future flight sims will.

 

 

 

With my Virpil throttle and stick, I have More then I need for CLoD. I literally have unbound buttons because I already have bound everything. Sounds like you may be able to map profiles to your hotas to add more modes and get extra buttons. 

[Dagwoodyt]

And when you forget which buttons do what try VoiceAttack. ? 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Thank you Syphen, very impressive indeed. I think I'll give it a try.

 

Dagwoodyt : no, I don't like the idea of talking to my Spit as if she was my girlfriend... By the way, I don't have any girlfriend at the moment but I remember a girlfriend I had who never listened to me... so...

 

 

[messsucher]

14 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Thank you Syphen, very impressive indeed. I think I'll give it a try.

 

Dagwoodyt : no, I don't like the idea of talking to my Spit as if she was my girlfriend... By the way, I don't have any girlfriend at the moment but I remember a girlfriend I had who never listened to me... so...

 

 

 

So yeah, you deserve better.

[JS81Knows]

4 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Yes, of course you can use VoiceAttack for radio comms, but for many other functions as well. For instance it can be used to operate manual landing gear such as in the Martlet. It gives option to duplicate clickable commands such as switching fuel tanks where clickable controls may be inconvenient to get to due to TiR limitations or to crudeness of click functionality which may be what is being hinted at ?

Does VoiceAttack work in CloD?! Just found it for DCS and it's a game changer for comms and ATC. Would be epic for CloD too!!

[Dagwoodyt]

6 minutes ago, JS81Knows said:

Does VoiceAttack work in CloD?! Just found it for DCS and it's a game changer for comms and ATC. Would be epic for CloD too!!

Yes it does. That’s why I mentioned the Martlet.

[Voyager]

13 minutes ago, JS81Knows said:

Does VoiceAttack work in CloD?! Just found it for DCS and it's a game changer for comms and ATC. Would be epic for CloD too!!

Just remember, in DCS VAICOM is able to directly plug into the DCS lua files, so it can decompose phrases into conversation command trees. I would not expect that level of access to the guts in CloD. 

[Izel]

 

14 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Well, all three generations of IL-2 games (IL2-1946, IL2CoD and IL2GB) require the mapping of many, many controls, especially IL2CoD. I don't think there is a single HOTAS that can provide all the buttons needed for the controls I use in CoD...

 

 

 

A handy tip: you can significantly extend the number of mapped commands in your HOTAS setup by reserving a pair of buttons as "Shift" buttons (A, B),  similar to using Ctrl and Shift on a keyboard. That way you can map up to four functions to a single button  (button,  button + A,  button +B, button + A + B).  Takes a while to memorize the combinations but I seldomly need to take off my headset nowadays.

Cheers! 

[Dagwoodyt]

I would go back to the OP and ask what functions the fantasized finger pointing device would serve that are not currently available via existing hardware and software combinations  ? ?

Edited February 11, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[343KKT_Kintaro]

No worries Dagwoodyt, I'm learning. My question (in the OP) dealt more with a fully implemented feature rather than with additional software that needs to be run separately.

 

 

[JS81Knows]

20 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Yes it does. That’s why I mentioned the Martlet.

Yes it seems you did, apologies. Even by yesterday it had been a very long week.

[ruby_monkey]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:05 PM, Voyager said:

I'd think you'd use Voice Attack to handle the radio coms and bailout. 

 

For finger tracking in clickables, PointCTRL has a thing that basically converts finger location to a mouse cursor. He developed it for DCS, and MSFS apparently does something weird with the mouse so he hasn't gotten it to work there yet, but it is completely separate from VR so you can run it without having VR capability.

 

Fair warning, he had to pause production for a year or so due to the pandemic, so he's about a year behind in the preorders. 

I have PointCTRL mainly for DCS and it works well enough in X-Plane 11 too, without recalibration. I'm hopeful that it'll be the same for CloD.

[Dagwoodyt]

5 hours ago, ruby_monkey said:

I have PointCTRL mainly for DCS and it works well enough in X-Plane 11 too, without recalibration. I'm hopeful that it'll be the same for CloD.

Fascinating complexity. Question is whether it adds to immersion or detracts from it ? 

[Voyager]

On 2/19/2022 at 10:53 AM, Dagwoodyt said:

Fascinating complexity. Question is whether it adds to immersion or detracts from it ? 

Finally got mine all set up in DCS last night. It adds simplicity. A lot of simplicity. 

 

On the F-14 the pilot oxygen is at about your low 7 O'clock. Picture trying to look over your left shoulder while finding your mouse with your right hand to maneuver it to click on a button right at the extreme of you vision. 

 

Way easier with PointCTRL. 

 

Next think I need to do is try launching CloD in 2D mode, and using the VR desktop view to see if I can use the ptcl mouse with it. 

 

MSFS does something weird, so I'm given to understand it doesn't work there. Will have to try later and see though. 

[Mysticpuma]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:33 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Clickable cockpits are available in the Dover series... why not implementing finger tracking so that the player really reaches full immersion?

 

Is the above doable?

 

Please devs, be indulgent, the present topic is some kind of "what if"...

 

 

The Quest 2 with its hand controllers could work. Click using the pointers, click and hold the throttle/joystick. The basics are there, programming the interaction is the time consuming part. 

[ruby_monkey]

On 2/19/2022 at 4:53 PM, Dagwoodyt said:

Fascinating complexity. Question is whether it adds to immersion or detracts from it ? 

It adds. Firstly because I can reach out my hand and 'flick' a switch without touching the mouse, and secondly because I don't have to memorise a shedload of hotkeys or buttons to perform different actions. It really makes clickable cockpits a joy to use. I also find that it makes it much easier for me to learn a new cockpit, but of course YMMV.

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

YMMV ?

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/your_mileage_may_vary