Formation Question for Veterans

[Majpalmer]

If you're not the flight leader, do you go off on your own once the engagement begins, or do you stick with your element leader? 

 

Thanks!

[messsucher]

It depends on the engagement and who is leading, tactics. But for example In more strict flight on easy engagement the lead takes a dive at the target first, and the rest of the flight observes from above, providing cover if needed. The rest of the flight can also finish the target if the lead fails to do it in one pass. Of course that requires disciplined pilots what online pilots are not that much, so even an easy engagement can soon be a chaotic mess, not to speak of of less easy engagement. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

In WW2, they used “welded wing” tactics, meaning the wingman tried to stick with the leader.  You had guys like Gentille and Godfrey who presaged the development of “Loose Deuce” tactics, but these were generally late Vietnam War developments, probably by the US Navy and what became Top Gun school (is that correct, or am I wrong??).  Loose Deuce is where they are working together to wear out an opponent, but not necessarily following each other.   But in any case, the lead and wing support each other as much as possible.

 

(but if you are just doing offline stuff with AI, and not multiplayer, than sure, go off on your own thing)

Edited February 5, 2022 by SeaSerpent

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'd say my online experiences are more in the Loose Deuce category. Where possible we try and fly a combat spread with about 1km separation between us in a rough line abreast formation. We have a lead but everyone is tactically flexible to spot and engage as needed with the others spotting and supporting.

 

My favourite is often where the first attacker causes a defensive maneuver that the wingman then has the ability to capitalize on for an ideal shot. On more than one occasion I've also held an attacking aircraft in a defensive position while my wingmate comes in for the kill. I actually had someone question me why I didn't just fly away with the faster airplane and it was because I was dragging for my wingman. It's fun for me

[Guest deleted@83466]

Yeah, I think that thanks to Discord and Teamspeak and the Fighter Combat book, more modern wingman tactics are the norm even in WW1 sims.

[Majpalmer]

Thanks to all.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Thatch weave was absolutely essential, the Navy was getting slaughtered without it.  It required working in a pair that stuck tight.

[Gambit21]

4 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

In WW2, they used “welded wing” tactics, meaning the wingman tried to stick with the leader.  You had guys like Gentille and Godfrey who presaged the development of “Loose Deuce” tactics, but these were generally late Vietnam War developments, probably by the US Navy and what became Top Gun school (is that correct, or am I wrong??).  Loose Deuce is where they are working together to wear out an opponent, but not necessarily following each other.   But in any case, the lead and wing support each other as much as possible.

 

(but if you are just doing offline stuff with AI, and not multiplayer, than sure, go off on your own thing)

 

“Welded wing” 

Not even close.

 

Almost never did it shake out that way. At least with regard to 8th Air Force. The pilot’s I’ve talked with said that once the merge happened it was more or less every man for himself. They’re look out for each other as best they could, but sure as hell no ‘welded wing’

 

Maybe it was different elsewhere.

[Guest deleted@83466]

However chaotic it might have turned out in battle, pretty sure a lead attacker and follow-the-leader wingman protecting the rear hemisphere was doctrine in several air forces at that time.  

[Gambit21]

2 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

However chaotic it might have turned out in battle, pretty sure a lead attacker and follow-the-leader wingman protecting the rear hemisphere was doctrine in several air forces at that time.  

 

Quite sure you’re correct.

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

However chaotic it might have turned out in battle, pretty sure a lead attacker and follow-the-leader wingman protecting the rear hemisphere was doctrine in several air forces at that time.  

i think this was also a quite good way for unexperienced pilots to learn from their experienced element leaders.

[ACG_Macro]

Generally speaking as a wingman I put a bit of a gap between me and the leader and keep watching his 6 and my own.

 

If he gets a tail I tell leader he tries to set up the kill for me.   If i get a tail vice versa.

 

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched int he mouth"

[Majpalmer]

I know that in the Pacific the naval aviators used the Thatch Weave when flying their Wildcats against Zeros. 

 

I've been experimenting in Il-2, trying to stay with my leader to see how things go. I've only given it a few tries. And I've only used it in 2v2s. When we have the numbers, I go off on my own. I've yet to try it in an outnumbered situation. 

 

In my 2d try, a 2v2, I stuck with my leader and sure enough I got an easy shot at a MiG that tried to get behind him. No one seemed to be interested in me. 

 

I'm waiting a 3v2, with us the 2, to see how it goes. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

The very best way to do it is by running a hot swapable lead, you shift positions depending on who see's what and their relative position to the target or spotted threat.  Its almost a necessary adaptation for the poor visibility we have.  Your mission is to keep the shooter alive, your kills almost always naturally follow.  And the obligation of lead is to keep the other guy alive over rushing blindly in.  That's where we got our moniker from, "Every man a captain".  There was no leader, just a team.  Two average pilots who know each other well, in communication and working with excellent teamwork will defeat any single experten in nearly all cases.  Because good teamwork is not the average thing.

[Majpalmer]

That sounds like the Thatch Weave. That's how they worked. 

 

In 1992 I was a speaker at a symposium on the battle of Midway in Pensacola. I got to meet and talk with some of the Navy aviators from the early Wildcat days. I even met one of the Zero Ace pilots. I still remember his Zero Pilots Association pin. I forget his name but he'd been burned. I would have loved to have gotten my hands on that, but I think he gave it to John Lundgren.  

 

They did a lot of hanger flying trying to explain how they countered the Zeros in those sluggish Wildcats. It sounded like what you're talking about with two-element teams, varying the lead. 

 

In the '80s in DC I had the good fortune to meet Adolf Galland and Macky Steinhoff, another burned guy. Steinhoff was hawking his book; Galland was selling signed aviation art at a DC gallery. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

Interesting discussion though.  I wish someone could summarize the essence of “Fluid Four”, because I’m a nerd who is interested in these tactics.

Edited February 6, 2022 by SeaSerpent

[Lusekofte]

Well reading about US aces, they quite often found themselves alone after a battle. I read about quite a lot of RAF pilots finding themselves alone too.

I also read their wingmen was quite nervous on their return. I havent read that much about Luftwaffe fighter pilots. So I cant tell. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by LuseKofte

[ShamrockOneFive]

11 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Well reading about US aces, they quite often found themselves alone after a battle. I read about quite a lot of RAF pilots finding themselves alone too.

I also read their wingmen was quite nervous on their return. I havent read that much about Luftwaffe fighter pilots. So I cant tell. 

 

I've read the same. The comment often seems to be that the "sky was full of airplanes" and then moments later it was empty again.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Yeah,  a common theme in after action reports.  The speed of the modern monoplane fighters made this a new phenomenon in aerial warfare.

 

[Talisman]

2 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

I've read the same. The comment often seems to be that the "sky was full of airplanes" and then moments later it was empty again.

 

This is always happening to me when I fly with my squad in IL-2 GB and the engagement with the enemy progresses.  So, not just a spotting issue then, lol.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[PatrickAWlson]

There is what you should do and what really happens.  The wingman should cover his leader.  What really happens is they often get separated for any one of a few dozen reasons.

 

Playing offline I always try to cover my squadron mates whether I am lead or not.  The AI has no real concept of wingman (the cover me command only goes so far), so you can't expect that.  Still, flying with a group lets enemy AI target them sometimes instead of focusing on me.  That allows me to pick some off while keeping them alive.  As they stay alive they get better in careers, which in turn helps me stay alive.

 

The reasons for flying in a group still apply offline in a career.  The way it unfolds maybe not so much.

[Majpalmer]

Yea, I've been trying to stay with my flight. And it seems to work out fairly well. As you said, EAs seem more likely to leave me alone. In fact, I just flew a hop where I pulled off an IL to take a MiG off my smoking Leader. I lost a kill, but all four of us went home and, as a group, took out six EAs. 

 

I did notice that since I started fighting as a team, at least until we have an advantage, my unit is growing. We were steadily going down at one point to 7 pilots. We are now up to 11. Could be a total coincidence, but who can say. Losses do seem to be in decline since I started playing ball. And as our numbers recover, our flight sizes increase, and the odds of being outnumbered become less. 

2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

There is what you should do and what really happens.  The wingman should cover his leader.  What really happens is they often get separated for any one of a few dozen reasons.

 

Playing offline I always try to cover my squadron mates whether I am lead or not.  The AI has no real concept of wingman (the cover me command only goes so far), so you can't expect that.  Still, flying with a group lets enemy AI target them sometimes instead of focusing on me.  That allows me to pick some off while keeping them alive.  As they stay alive they get better in careers, which in turn helps me stay alive.

 

The reasons for flying in a group still apply offline in a career.  The way it unfolds maybe not so much.

 

[CAFulcrum]

Somewhere else on the forum there was an account from an Italian pilot describing the spitfires that they were attacked by/attacking as flying pretty closely in pairs.  One of the kills he describes involves putting bullets into a two spits, one after another, that are flying wing to wing.

 

posted by ITAF_Rani here: