Tank Crew: IL-2 Series

[Jackfraser24]

Hi Everyone. I just want to ask another question. First of all I had to set up a new forum about Tank Crew doing scenarios in major Cold War conflicts due to the last one being shut down for reasons that are not my fault. 

 

Would a Korean War Tank Crew scenario be feasible or practical to do sometime in the future?

 

If so, why?

If not, why not?

 

And why are there no recent (if any) Korean War tank simulators out there? Is it hard to do? Is there not enough demand for it?

 

What about a Vietnam War tank combat simulator? Could it be possible? I don’t just mean for IL 2 (preferably I’d like to know that though) but for other game developers?

 

Thank you

Edited March 18 by Jackfraser24

[JV44HeinzBar]

S!,

I highly doubt either a Korean War TC nor Vietnam TC will ever see the light of day.

I could be wrong, but North Korea most relied on T34/85 tank which numbered less than 500 during the conflict. Those tanks were used more for infantry support. Meanwhile, the UN forces, in the beginning, only had small numbers of M24 Chaffee light tanks, which I think, only had a small caliber 75mm main gun. It wasn't until later that UN forces were supplied with M26 Pershings, M46 & M47 Patton tanks. Most of the battles took place along main roads between rice paddy & steep terrain.

 

Vietnam conflict saw 1 tank vs tank battle where US armor M48s vs PT76 of the NVA.

 

If you're looking for later early tank engagements prior to 80s, then the best bet would be to look towards the Middle East, Six Day War & Yom Kippur.

 

Any of these scenarios are doubtful. All new models and maps would have to be made. However, it would be exciting to field some M Series US armor, UK Centurions vs Soviet madeT54, T55s & JS 3 armor.

 

HB

Edited January 31, 2022 by JV44HeinzBar

[BlitzPig_EL]

The US also had a fair number of Shermans in Korea, and the Brits had the best tank in theater, the Centurion.

[JV44HeinzBar]

On 2/2/2022 at 12:44 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

The US also had a fair number of Shermans in Korea, and the Brits had the best tank in theater, the Centurion.

 

S!,

This is true. I don't have a lot of references for tank battles in Korea, but my understanding is that armor battles were few. IIRC, tanks were used more for infantry support when available.

 

Edit: I found this with a quick search: http://www.cuzzblue.com/2020/08/largest-tank-battle-of-korean-war-31.html

 

I don't know how accurate this information is at the moment.

 

Interesting paint scheme  

 

 

HB

Edited February 4, 2022 by JV44HeinzBar

[MajorMagee]

Yes, that's an accurate rendition of the battle.

[messsucher]

Shame it was not Shermans vs T-34s.

[Frinik22]

But the Shermans did face the T34/85s Korea and prevailed in the majority of cases. 

 

Table 2 Shows the effectiveness of the US Tanks v T-34/85

This seems to indicate the superiority of the Sherman. Each tank was able to defeat the other at practical combat ranges using its main armament. The Sherman has a slight edge as the 76 mm gun has a higher rate of fire, the Sherman ergonomics are superior and the 76 mm is slightly more accurate. But all in all, crew training and tactical factors (mainly who fires first) would dominate over these minor differences.

Overall both the T-34/85 and late model (M4A3) Shermans were good medium tanks in the same class, the Sherman gave better account of itself. It was superior in tank v tank combat, more reliable (albeit this statement can be challenged as we rarely compare like with like in tank reliability and the US logistics and mechanical support was so much superior to that of the Communist forces).

Sherman crews had much higher survival rates that those in T-34s based on available data.

[Avimimus]

Fulda Gap though...? 1948 to 1953 or thereabouts? That'd give a lot more tank combat, if that is what people are after.

 

There was quite a bit of Tank combat in the Suez Crisis as well (mainly British, French, and Ex-Soviet tanks). The aircraft used in the conflict also generally lacked radar or advanced avionics (as the newest fighters were just being rolled out and still prioritised for deployment to Europe in 1956).

Edited February 5, 2022 by Avimimus

[Cybermat47]

27 minutes ago, Eeafanas said:

Go to DCS with such requests.  what a foolish thing to ask the developers of a WW1/WW2 simulator to develop an add-on about Cold War conflict.  What are you thinking about when you ask for this?

I’d argue that a Korean War game makes more sense than some WWI or WWII battles. 
 

If it was a flight simulation, we already have earlier models of and aircraft closely related to some Korean War aircraft (namely the F-51, F-82, Po-2, Il-10, La-9, La-11, Yak-7, Yak-9, Yak-3, Sea Fury, and Seafire - though some of those might not be appropriate for the Korean War, it’s not a conflict I’m very familiar with beyond No. 77 SQN RAAF). 
 

I’d guess it would sell better than quite a few potential WWII games, too.

 

As for tanks, I won’t pretend to know anything about Korean War tanks other than those awesome looking demon Shermans and T-34/85s. But my understanding is that a lot of WWII-era tanks were used, and the newer types weren’t much more advanced.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Cybermat47

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, Eeafanas said:

Go to DCS with such requests.  what a foolish thing to ask the developers of a WW1/WW2 simulator to develop an add-on about Cold War conflict.  What are you thinking about when you ask for this?

Ehem, Korean War is what Han would like to do, while Jason would like to go to the Pacific. They stated this some time ago in an online sassion, IIRC.

[messsucher]

Korea would be a fail, Pacific would be a success.

[blue_max]

oh man, I would love me some early cold war korea era stuff. Yes, pacific is cool, but it's also just more prop planes fighting other prop planes.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Transonic aerial combat is a very different kettle of fish, and I think that many players would soon tire of it.  Given how this series is pretty much focused on tactical air support of ground forces, that is the area where most of the action in a Korean scenario would really work well.  It would be a totally one sided affair though, with much of it carried out by, you guessed it, prop aircraft.

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Transonic aerial combat is a very different kettle of fish, and I think that many players would soon tire of it.  Given how this series is pretty much focused on tactical air support of ground forces, that is the area where most of the action in a Korean scenario would really work well.  It would be a totally one sided affair though, with much of it carried out by, you guessed it, prop aircraft.

 

Yes, and there is a lack of variety in Red aircraft. So it is mainly ground attack using American aircraft with the occasional rare harassment by a Mig-15. For variety the RAAF Meteor F.8 could be added I suppose.

 

However if paired with a 1948-1955 European module it become more viable. The 1948 era is still more high-subsonic than transonic (e.g. Mig-9 and Yak-15 might actually be able to dogfight) and the planesets are much more diverse with Vampires, Il-28, even the early Canberra... and more balanced as well... so that might be more enjoyable.

 

IMHO, dogfights become less aerobatic after 1942 as speeds and aircraft weights increase, and this doesn't really start to turn around until the late 1970s (Mig-21s and Mirages possibly being exempted). Generally aircraft don't like to turn and have rather nasty handling. So I agree with your basic point. That said, I enjoy ground attack and I'm a bit curious about European Venoms vs. Il-28... it'd be interesting to see it done properly in a sim.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Avimimus

[Jackfraser24]

If 1CGS was going to make a Korean War module would they do it as part of the mainstream Great Battles series or as a different sub series like this?

• Korea 1950
• Korea 1951
• Korea 1952
• Korea 1953

Little bland I know, but you see where I’m getting at, don’t you?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[LukeFF]

There was very, very little tank-on-tank combat in Korea. Non-starter for a module.

 

35 minutes ago, Jackfraser24 said:

you see where I’m getting at, don’t you?

 

Shot-gunning yet another giant list without doing proper research? ?

[Jackfraser24]

35 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

There was very, very little tank-on-tank combat in Korea. Non-starter for a module.

 

 

Shot-gunning yet another giant list without doing proper research? ?

Yeah. 
 

But I was talking about the air war part.

[MajorMagee]

We did both Korea and 1950's Middle East Mods in Panzer Elite, and the Tank-On-Tank battles were a lot of fun. T-34/85, JS3, Cromwell, Pershing, Chafee, Su100, M4 and EZ-8s plus a few others I can't remember.

[MajorMagee]

I just remembered creating a Chosin Reservoir scenario around using the M-16 Half Track. That was a challenge, keeping the infantry hoards at bay, without running out of ammo, while the marines slipped away down the pass.

[ShampooX]

Massive bump.  LOL

[Jackfraser24]

Hey everyone I have changed this thread topic to talking about a hypothetical tank crew module in the news IL-2 series. Feel free to talk about what you would like to see here.

 

*PS, I know that this is far too early of a topic to talk about, but I think it is a matter of when, not if it will be done. 

 

Cheers!