Flying Circus Future

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Seriously, comments like that should probably need some sort of citation.

“ At the time, we had no intention of abandoning ROF or her fans, but the requirements for WW2 overwhelmed us and we had no resources to manage two projects at the same time and the technology we developed for WW2 was extremely difficult to retrofit back into our WWI engine without causing major delays to Sturmovik. Retrofitting WWI would have required an entirely new team of developers that we could not afford. So, we marched forward with WW2 hoping to someday find a way to come back to WWI and do a sort of parallel development.”

 

DD197

[BraveSirRobin]

7 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

“ At the time, we had no intention of abandoning ROF or her fans, but the requirements for WW2 overwhelmed us and we had no resources to manage two projects at the same time and the technology we developed for WW2 was extremely difficult to retrofit back into our WWI engine without causing major delays to Sturmovik. Retrofitting WWI would have required an entirely new team of developers that we could not afford. So, we marched forward with WW2 hoping to someday find a way to come back to WWI and do a sort of parallel development.”

 

DD197

Lol.  The word “reluctant” is nowhere to be found there.  

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Lol.  The word “reluctant” is nowhere to be found there.  

But it sure screams "reluctant".   Certainly proper use of the word "reluctant ".  

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reluctant

Edited September 18, 2024 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[BraveSirRobin]

10 hours ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

But it sure screams "reluctant".   Certainly proper use of the word "reluctant ".  

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reluctant

No, it doesn’t.  Virtually everyone understood that BoX meant the end of RoF.

[Zooropa_Fly]

And as I remember, there was very little output in RoF for a long time before it really started to decline.

[Jackfraser24]

Is there much demand for a Tarnopol map?

[Dr1falcon500]

1 hour ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Is there much demand for a Tarnopol map?

I'd like to see Tarnopol with some Morane aircraft that could also be used on the Western Front. Morane L and N Bullet for instance.

[BraveSirRobin]

3 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Is there much demand for a Tarnopol map?

lol.  No, there is virtually no demand for that map.

[Enceladus828]

31 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

lol.  No, there is virtually no demand for that map.

Source?

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Enceladus828 said:

Source?

This forum.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

13 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

No, it doesn’t.  Virtually everyone understood that BoX meant the end of RoF.

Yeah, it does. His use of the the word reluctant perfectly summarizes the words expressed by the devs in the quoted text. (That's why I included the link to the dictionary definition).  He is correct. 

 

Yes, virtually everyone understood that BoX meant the end of RoF.  No one has suggested otherwise.   Not sure why you mentioned that as it's totally irrelevant to the conversation.   Maybe just trying to change the subject?  I don't blame you for that..

 

Anyway, have a nice day.. cheers

Edited September 19, 2024 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[Dr1falcon500]

8 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

This forum.

Sure. That's like saying "Everybody knows that". Generalisation.

[Trooper117]

Stick a poll up ref Tarnopol... 3 people may turn up to vote on it 

[BraveSirRobin]

10 hours ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Yeah, it does. His use of the the word reluctant perfectly summarizes the words expressed by the devs in the quoted text. (That's why I included the link to the dictionary definition).  He is correct. 

 

Yes, virtually everyone understood that BoX meant the end of RoF.  No one has suggested otherwise.   Not sure why you mentioned that as it's totally irrelevant to the conversation.   Maybe just trying to change the subject?  I don't blame you for that..

 

Anyway, have a nice day.. cheers

 

Sure, if we totally ignore that the word “reluctant” is missing from that statement, and we totally ignore that they planned to discontinue RoF when BoX development began, then they were “reluctant” to end RoF development.  Just like Microsoft was “reluctant” to discontinue support for Windows 10.  🙄

5 hours ago, Dr1falcon500 said:

Sure. That's like saying "Everybody knows that". Generalisation.

Yeah, because anyone who regularly reads this forum knows that.

[Enceladus828]

10 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

and we totally ignore that they planned to discontinue RoF when BoX development began

BoX development began in late 2012 and RoF continued to be supported for another 2.5 years so to say that it was planned to be discontinued in 2012 is false.

 

5 hours ago, Dr1falcon500 said:

Sure. That's like saying "Everybody knows that". Generalisation.

And I mean like, how much demand was there really for Paris to be added to FC? Not a whole lot and Luke even told us not to get our hopes up but lo and behold it’s coming. Same goes with the Spitfire Mk. XIVe and WACO glider, probably low demand for them yet still came. The Channel and Tarnopol maps would sell a lot better than those planes.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Sure, if we totally ignore that the word “reluctant” is missing from that statement, and we totally ignore that they planned to discontinue RoF when BoX development began, then they were “reluctant” to end RoF development.  Just like Microsoft was “reluctant” to discontinue support for Windows 10.  🙄

Yeah, because anyone who regularly reads this forum knows that.

Lol..he never said they used the word reluctant.   That was his summarization of thier post.  It's actually very accurate.   You understand what the word reluctant means?

[LukeFF]

Alright, that's enough. 

[PatrickAWlson]

Stopped in to see if anything interesting was being discussed.  My bad.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

 

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Stopped in to see if anything interesting was being discussed.  My bad.

Go to the previous page. There was some good discussions for a bit. Cheers

Edited September 19, 2024 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[BraveSirRobin]

2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Stopped in to see if anything interesting was being discussed.  My bad.

Not true.  We’re talking about how popular an eastern front map would be. I’d love to get your opinion.

[PatrickAWlson]

13 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Not true.  We’re talking about how popular an eastern front map would be. I’d love to get your opinion.

 

I'm not a marketing guy so anything I say should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.  If I was to take a guess at the new module that would sell best it would be Italy.  If I was to guess at the module that would sell best and still be easier to make by leveraging existing RoF assets it would be the Channel.

 

By itself, IMHO a Galicia redux is niche.  What made it appealing was the Ilya Muromets.  That would have to be included to get people to buy.

 

Why Galicia II might not sell:

• Since the Russian empire lost WWI the larger Russian market might not be there.  WWII is the glorious victory, not WWI. 
• I don't think that most westerners want to fly Nieuports in eastern Europe when they can fly them over the western front.

 

If a whole new plane set, including Austrian planes was introduced, then you would have something that would appeal to more people.  Still niche, but maybe a big enough niche to be profitable.  The question there is opportunity cost.  Would an Italian front module sell more?  Would another go at the Channel sell more?

 

I know what I would like to see.  I also know that, after waiting 15 years, I'm probably not going to see it.  That is fleshing out two seaters and bombers.  That can be done with collector planes and doesn't need a new map, so it doesn't fit the module sales model.  Still, if you did Galicia or the Channel again, did the  Ilya Muromets or float planes again, and used the opportunity to flesh out the recon aircraft set it might sell.  Or it might not.  I am a SP campaign guy so these planes matter to me.  If you want t o dogfight in MP then they are meaningless.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

41 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I'm not a marketing guy so anything I say should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.  If I was to take a guess at the new module that would sell best it would be Italy.  If I was to guess at the module that would sell best and still be easier to make by leveraging existing RoF assets it would be the Channel.

 

By itself, IMHO a Galicia redux is niche.  What made it appealing was the Ilya Muromets.  That would have to be included to get people to buy.

 

Why Galicia II might not sell:

• Since the Russian empire lost WWI the larger Russian market might not be there.  WWII is the glorious victory, not WWI. 
• I don't think that most westerners want to fly Nieuports in eastern Europe when they can fly them over the western front.

 

If a whole new plane set, including Austrian planes was introduced, then you would have something that would appeal to more people.  Still niche, but maybe a big enough niche to be profitable.  The question there is opportunity cost.  Would an Italian front module sell more?  Would another go at the Channel sell more?

 

I know what I would like to see.  I also know that, after waiting 15 years, I'm probably not going to see it.  That is fleshing out two seaters and bombers.  That can be done with collector planes and doesn't need a new map, so it doesn't fit the module sales model.  Still, if you did Galicia or the Channel again, did the  Ilya Muromets or float planes again, and used the opportunity to flesh out the recon aircraft set it might sell.  Or it might not.  I am a SP campaign guy so these planes matter to me.  If you want t o dogfight in MP then they are meaningless.

Good observations. 👍   I would only add that I think for MP they would have some appeal.   Maybe not so much for furballs, but for the events the 2 seaters and bombers would be great additons imo. 

Cheers

Edited September 20, 2024 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Good observations. 👍   I would only add that I think for MP they would have some appeal.   Maybe not so much for furballs, but for the events the 2 seaters and bombers would be great additons imo. 

Cheers

 

I used to fly with JG1 playing Red Baron and later RoF.  The most fun that I had were the tournaments where winning and losing was decided by how effective the two seaters were. 

 

It just feels like it's me and maybe a dozen others asking for two seaters for the better part of 15 years and not getting them.  Instead we get more scouts, some of which had production runs of under 100 planes and only served for a few months.  I would love to be wrong and see some more two seaters get made, but I can't discount 15 years of evidence.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

29 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I used to fly with JG1 playing Red Baron and later RoF.  The most fun that I had were the tournaments where winning and losing was decided by how effective the two seaters were. 

 

It just feels like it's me and maybe a dozen others asking for two seaters for the better part of 15 years and not getting them.  Instead we get more scouts, some of which had production runs of under 100 planes and only served for a few months.  I would love to be wrong and see some more two seaters get made, but I can't discount 15 years of evidence.

Have you seen this?   

JG1 is proud to announce Flanders in Flames MMXXIV the Silver Anniversary edition!
 

     
 

    Flanders in Flames was first created in October 1999 by members of JG1 for Red Baron 3D, and is one of the longest-running WW1 dead-is-dead tournaments.
 

     
 

    This campaign will cover the closing period of the Somme offensive, October – November 1916. It will be a full Dead-is-Dead event which means that if you are killed or captured you can no longer participate as a pilot for the remainder of that particular mission of the day. You can continue to participate as a gunner in a two seat aircraft.
 

     
 

    For pilots to practice and gain familiarity with the map, the mission will be up on the server all day on Tuesdays starting on 24 September, and JG1 will host open-house practices on Tuesdays at 2100 EDT (= Wednesdays 0100 GMT).  Please visit us on our Discord server: https://discord.gg/SM6Uk5XuJ2
 

     
 

    The tournament will run on Saturdays at 1400 EDT (= 1800 GMT), from 19 October to 9 November, with a dry run on 12 October.
 

     
 

    Details such as Rules and the particulars regarding Discord meeting and comms will be forthcoming. Stay tuned!
 

  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/89396-flanders-in-flames-mmxxiv/?do=findComment&comment=1328587

[PatrickAWlson]

It has been years since I have flown online.  Too much of a time commitment.  Great guys and I appreciate them dealing with my barely mediocre flying ability, but it's just more than I can take on at the moment.   For anybody else interested in flying on line I definitely recommend trying out an organized squadron.

[Trooper117]

For me, we aren't going to see any new maps bar perhaps the Channel... but agree with others, if they won't produce maps, for god's sake can they give the badly needed two seater's...

[PatrickAWlson]

4 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

For me, we aren't going to see any new maps bar perhaps the Channel... but agree with others, if they won't produce maps, for god's sake can they give the badly needed two seater's...

 

I agree that the Channel is most likely.  Back to our quick exchange earlier in this thread - the contract team is a use it or lose it situation.  Eventually they will be cut because that is the way of things, but when that happens a lot of expertise goes with them.  That will truly be the end of WWI development.  Until that happens, they have to use them for something.  So yeah, I hope for continuation, and there are reasons to believe that WWI development will continue, but that is going to depend on 1C's plans.

[Trooper117]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

but that is going to depend on 1C's plans.

 

Yes, agreed... however, reading what has been gleaned from posts previously, I believe there hasn't been a definite stop to possible new content... they have stated FC will still be supported, for how long we don't know, plus things 'have yet to be determined'... or words to that effect.

[BraveSirRobin]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

For me, we aren't going to see any new maps bar perhaps the Channel... but agree with others, if they won't produce maps, for god's sake can they give the badly needed two seater's...

 

Adding 2-seaters would be a lot better than a map.

[Jackfraser24]

Here are a list of collector planes I think would be great for the Western Front map.

 

Germans

• A.E.G. C.IV
• A.E.G. G.IV
• Albatros C.III
• Friedrichshafen G.III
• L.F.G. Roland D VIb
• Rumpler C.I
• Rumpler C.IV
• Zeppelin R VI

British

• Airco D.H.5
• Airco D.H.9
• Airco D.H.9A
• Avro 504A
• Avro 504K
• Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8
• Bristol M.1C
• Bristol Scout D
• Handley Page O/100
• R.A.F. B.E.2a
• R.A.F. B.E.2c
• R.A.F. B.E.12
• R.A.F. F.E.8
• R.A.F. R.E.5
• R.A.F. R.E.7
• R.A.F. R.E.8
• Short Bomber
• Sopwith Salamander

France

• Caudron  R.11
• Morane-Saulnier AI
• Nieuport 10
• Nieuport 12
• Nieuport 16
• Nieuport 24
• Nieuport 24bis
• Nieuport 27
• Nieuport-Delage 29
• Salmson 2
• SPAD S.XI

Edited September 21, 2024 by Jackfraser24

[BMA_FlyingShark]

I'd like to add to that:

 

Nieuport 24 (Bis)

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

 

[Enceladus828]

23 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I'm not a marketing guy so anything I say should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.  If I was to take a guess at the new module that would sell best it would be Italy.  If I was to guess at the module that would sell best and still be easier to make by leveraging existing RoF assets it would be the Channel.

 

By itself, IMHO a Galicia redux is niche.  What made it appealing was the Ilya Muromets.  That would have to be included to get people to buy.

 

Why Galicia II might not sell:

• Since the Russian empire lost WWI the larger Russian market might not be there.  WWII is the glorious victory, not WWI. 
• I don't think that most westerners want to fly Nieuports in eastern Europe when they can fly them over the western front.

 

If a whole new plane set, including Austrian planes was introduced, then you would have something that would appeal to more people.  Still niche, but maybe a big enough niche to be profitable.  The question there is opportunity cost.  Would an Italian front module sell more?  Would another go at the Channel sell more?

 

I know what I would like to see.  I also know that, after waiting 15 years, I'm probably not going to see it.  That is fleshing out two seaters and bombers.  That can be done with collector planes and doesn't need a new map, so it doesn't fit the module sales model.  Still, if you did Galicia or the Channel again, did the  Ilya Muromets or float planes again, and used the opportunity to flesh out the recon aircraft set it might sell.  Or it might not.  I am a SP campaign guy so these planes matter to me.  If you want t o dogfight in MP then they are meaningless.

Very well said, Pat. The gorgeous scenery of the Dolomites and Venetian Plains definitely makes the Italian Front worth doing, plus we'd also get this plane.

 

Regarding two-seaters, I agree, that is sorely lacking. Where's the BE2 to name one? If Italy was done that could also bring us the Rumpler C.IV which saw service there and for the Galicia map we would also get the Albatross C.1.

 

Here's my analysis of the 3 maps:

Channel: can reuse the FC aircraft, the map and 3 seaplanes can be ported over though some entirely new planes like the BE2c, Caudron G.4, Rumpler C.IV, Albatross and Aviatik C.1, and perhaps another German seaplane would be appreciated. The map would depict the Gotha raids though London might not be included, and hunting U-boats with the Felixstowe can also be portrayed. Even at a basic level, only map and 3 seaplanes added, no new planes and map have to be made and much of that area is already in the game on the BoN map.

 

Italy: would require making a map and Austrian and Italian planes entirely from scratch but it would be worth doing as this place and planes would be very appealing to players. Can also use some FC aircraft like the SPADs and Nieuports. Much like WW2 the Italian theater is very interesting albeit underappreciated. With Isonzo being very popular, very much full servers daily, especially with the recent release of the Montello map and two more maps coming within the year, I have hopes that doing the Italian map will bring players over so they can see the battlefield from above. I mean, the map and planes per installment have to appeal to players who don't frequently follow the forums.

 

Galicia: first of all, was never really fleshed out in RoF: no Austrian planes and no more than two Russian planes. Although some FC aircraft like the Nieuports, Sopwith Triplane and Fokker E.III can be used, new planes have to be added to offer a complete set. While the map can be ported over, there's nothing really visually appealing about it compared to the Italian map. And unlike the Italian map which would cover everything from 1915-18: 1st Battle of the Isonzo, Battle of Caporetto (12th Battle), Second Battle of the Piave River and the Battle of Vittorio Veneto, the Galicia map covers only a portion of the Eastern Front as a whole.

 

But all this said, the potential for WW1 sims shall not be underestimated.

[Trooper117]

We can keep bumping our gums about WWI theatres of war, shed loads of planes to drool over, etc, etc, etc... but wearing your fingers out over stuff we are unlikely to ever see is becoming old now... and a waste of time.

As usual, the dev's have their lips wired shut about anything WWI related, except for FC4 being inbound soon, but the future is still up in the air (or possibly about to crash with a fiery death) so nothing to look forward to... 

Thankfully they have come good with FC4, (I didn't think we would even get that to be honest) so hat's off to them for that... keep smiling all 

[Jackfraser24]

On 9/22/2024 at 4:49 AM, Enceladus828 said:

Very well said, Pat. The gorgeous scenery of the Dolomites and Venetian Plains definitely makes the Italian Front worth doing, plus we'd also get this plane.

 

Regarding two-seaters, I agree, that is sorely lacking. Where's the BE2 to name one? If Italy was done that could also bring us the Rumpler C.IV which saw service there and for the Galicia map we would also get the Albatross C.1.

 

Here's my analysis of the 3 maps:

Channel: can reuse the FC aircraft, the map and 3 seaplanes can be ported over though some entirely new planes like the BE2c, Caudron G.4, Rumpler C.IV, Albatross and Aviatik C.1, and perhaps another German seaplane would be appreciated. The map would depict the Gotha raids though London might not be included, and hunting U-boats with the Felixstowe can also be portrayed. Even at a basic level, only map and 3 seaplanes added, no new planes and map have to be made and much of that area is already in the game on the BoN map.

 

Italy: would require making a map and Austrian and Italian planes entirely from scratch but it would be worth doing as this place and planes would be very appealing to players. Can also use some FC aircraft like the SPADs and Nieuports. Much like WW2 the Italian theater is very interesting albeit underappreciated. With Isonzo being very popular, very much full servers daily, especially with the recent release of the Montello map and two more maps coming within the year, I have hopes that doing the Italian map will bring players over so they can see the battlefield from above. I mean, the map and planes per installment have to appeal to players who don't frequently follow the forums.

 

Galicia: first of all, was never really fleshed out in RoF: no Austrian planes and no more than two Russian planes. Although some FC aircraft like the Nieuports, Sopwith Triplane and Fokker E.III can be used, new planes have to be added to offer a complete set. While the map can be ported over, there's nothing really visually appealing about it compared to the Italian map. And unlike the Italian map which would cover everything from 1915-18: 1st Battle of the Isonzo, Battle of Caporetto (12th Battle), Second Battle of the Piave River and the Battle of Vittorio Veneto, the Galicia map covers only a portion of the Eastern Front as a whole.

 

But all this said, the potential for WW1 sims shall not be underestimated.

 

I think Flying Circus has a lot of potential left in it. They really should cover other areas like what you said because otherwise Flying Circus may come across as just a more modern and more expensive incarnation of Rise of Flight to some people. If they could do somewhere like Italy or Galicia that would set Flying Circus aside from Rise of Flight. I’d like to fly Italian, Russian and Austro-Hungarian planes, no matter how good or awful their performance was.

Maps

• Channel
• Galicia 
• Romania
• Northeast Italy
• Macedonia

Edited September 24, 2024 by Jackfraser24

[Panzerlang]

I'm going to hazard a guess that most SP players want to role-play a fully-fleshed western front. That's the meat and potatoes of WW1 air combat, ideally from 1914 but the Eindekker vs DH2 with appropriate two-seaters sufficient to make the nut. Other fronts are side-dishes in my mind, nice to have but not at the expense of 'critical' western-front planes.

In conclusion...more two-seaters please, to go with the EIII and DH2.

[Trooper117]

4 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

I'm going to hazard a guess that most SP players want to role-play a fully-fleshed western front.

 

That's certainly me!...

[Enceladus828]

6 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

I'm going to hazard a guess that most SP players want to role-play a fully-fleshed western front. That's the meat and potatoes of WW1 air combat, ideally from 1914 but the Eindekker vs DH2 with appropriate two-seaters sufficient to make the nut.

The Caudron G.4, BE.2, Rumpler C.IV, Albatross C.1 and Aviatik C.1 along with the 3 RoF seaplanes would make for a complete set of 8 planes if a FC5 with the Channel Map was released.

This may be just me (we don't have access to the sales), if FC sales were faltering by FC3 and or the devs don't have much interest in WW1 anymore, would they really have bothered for Paris to be modelled?

 

I have hope that WW1 development can be continued in either FC or the Korea sim after FC4. Would be a real shame to just stop there when only a small portion of the iceberg has been covered.

[=IRFC=Gascan]

Panzerlang really nailed it. Other fronts are cool, and I'd love to try flying over Italy, but fleshing out the rest of the Western Front is what I want to see the most. Two seaters really are what is needed to realize that goal. I'd love to see a few other things, like a full MP implementation of the arty spot and photo recon missions, control over ambient artillery in the mission editor (along with gas attacks and concentrated barrage effects, like the fire and smoke columns). However, that all pales in comparison to additional two-seaters.

[Jackfraser24]

20 hours ago, =IRFC=Gascan said:

Panzerlang really nailed it. Other fronts are cool, and I'd love to try flying over Italy, but fleshing out the rest of the Western Front is what I want to see the most.

I agree with you 100%. Always finish what you started before you move onto another project. I’m glad that Paris is coming to Flying Circus. It would be amazing to fly over. If they ever did a Channel map I hope they’d do London as well.

[Jackfraser24]

On 9/25/2024 at 7:58 AM, Enceladus828 said:

The Caudron G.4, BE.2, Rumpler C.IV, Albatross C.1 and Aviatik C.1 along with the 3 RoF seaplanes would make for a complete set of 8 planes if a FC5 with the Channel Map was released.

This may be just me (we don't have access to the sales), if FC sales were faltering by FC3 and or the devs don't have much interest in WW1 anymore, would they really have bothered for Paris to be modelled?

 

I have hope that WW1 development can be continued in either FC or the Korea sim after FC4. Would be a real shame to just stop there when only a small portion of the iceberg has been covered.

I really hope that there is a Flying Circus Vol.V. They might do a Channel Map or a Galicia Map to keep us entertained while development on IL-2 Korea progresses at a slow and steady pace in the background.